very nice article with a good ethical question.. i for one would shit my pants about what to do.. risk a lawsuit by producing it.. or risk losing the cart by asking them
I would dump the rom and make it available to the community. Let people play it, experience it, and get to see that part of NES history we didn't know existed. Also, you don't want the EPROMs to fail before it's dumped.
Regarding contacting Ultra, I would leave them out of it. I know it's not very ethical, but they abandoned the software a long time ago, and it's not like you would be profiting off of the dump. I think there's a strong likelihood they'll want the cart back and stick to the corporate policy. It's one thing for the game companies to turn a blind eye to the unreleased stuff, but once they officially give you the ok to distribute Hoppin' Mad they have a lot to lose legally.
And about finishing it first, I personally think it would be cool to see it in it's current state, and if you made it available like it is now, you could get the homebrew scene to collaborate on wrapping it up.
As long as you backed up the current roms, then you have plenty of time to decide how you want to move forward.
I think finishing the game would be the way to go, because I think being in the business of selling unfinished repros or releases is sketchy and certain to disappoint quite a few customers.
As far as contacting the original company...I could see the novelty in talking to the original programmers but I doubt you're likely to find them at the original company.
^^^ Not exactly true. While different than what the homebrewers are doing, you could do some major hex editing and rom hacking to finish up the third level just using the existing roms as a baseline. Not for the faint of heart, but it could be done without a complete rewrite.
I think it would be a long shot to get it finished. There are other protos out there unfinished, and not many people lined up for the job. I can certainly understand that it's very sentimental to you at this point (it would be to me as well), but from a more realistic point of view, it's just one more unfinished, unreleased, NES game. I really hope you don't take that the wrong way. I would love to see it get finished, as I'm sure most would!
^^^ Not exactly true. While different than what the homebrewers are doing, you could do some major hex editing and rom hacking to finish up the third level just using the existing roms as a baseline. Not for the faint of heart, but it could be done without a complete rewrite.
^ this.
If the engine's there, all you need is to populate the level with existing bad guys. If the boss isn't done you'll have to play silly game genie code tricks or such to make it different (is there even a boss in any level of this game or are you just collecting balloons until there's no more to collect!) but there's no reason why a good hacker can't finish this up. Sivak?
I say spread the dump amongst the community, I can see no harm in this at all.
1.) If you want it to be finished, then it will be finished, but the original untouched dump will still be out there, the historical aspect of it, so everyone can check it out.
2.) If people want to see it finished, they will know by playing the original proto of it. I guess you could look at it as a demo for the community or something, if you get what I'm saying.
I personally just don't see why the dump would be something to cling to. It was an abandoned project from years and years ago. It's hard to argue ethics of the dump on this matter because, well, everyone here has done some sort of emulation with commercial games at some point : P
Just my point of view. I still think it's a great find, MrMark, and would love for everyone to be able to experience the history of it, too.
Mostly every programmer that visits this site already has two or three projects lined up. You might have better luck posted over at nesdev, but of course everyone over there talks a big game and never releases anything.
Go to Option -> Movie and check "Start a record from reset". This way, when you start to record, it will reset the game to the beginning. Next, (while the ROM is loaded) Edit -> Movie -> Record. Play all you want, and when you're done recording Edit -> Movie -> Stop. I usually close out the ROM, then do Edit -> Movie -> AVI convert. Choose the ROM file in the appropriate box, Movie file that you just made, and what you want to name the final AVI in the third box. Usually you can set the Frame Rate to 1/2 FPS, but if there seems to be some stuff on screen that looks like it flashes every other frame, you might want to do 1/3 FPS, though usually 1/2 is fine. Click the Select Video Format button. I usually pick Indeo 5.10 myself, but you can pick whichever one you're comfortable with. Click OK, then click the Convert button.
That's all there is to it really.
As for completing it, I'd say you'd have to disassemble the whole thing first, which would be kind of a pain. It's possible though. I believe someone made a disassembly of Final Fantasy before, and successfully rebuilt the whole thing with code. I really couldn't tell you how long this would take, but I can safely say it would be awhile ; )
Seek out the guys behind the "Dragoon X Omega" series of hacks. They hit NesDev from time to time, but tend to get a hard time from the 6502 programmers, despite the fact that there isn't a true homebrew out there that holds a candle to the hack Dragoon X Omega 2.
I discussed that game a couple issues ago in the eZine, so their information should be in there as well, I think. The main hacker on that is a master of hex editing hacks without the high-level tools most hackers rely on. For hacking up a 3rd stage, he would definitely be an asset.
Ok. Now I finally know what you were talking about. I'd have to see the game in action and get an idea what's going on. But from the sound of it, doing it from scratch would be the thing that'd make the most sense.
Great article mark. Amazing find and I am glad it is in your hands as you are by far one of the most stand up collectors I have come to know in this hobby. I would love it to get finished and released. I wouldn't think that the company would really care much anymore about the game, but that's just my opinion. I'd say call them and talk with them about it, i'm sure they'd be civil.
Perhaps releasing to a small team would be a good idea (like in a private topic here on NA). I'd love to provide some help analysing it, but don't have nearly enough time to take on the whole task by myself.
This would be a lot harder to complete the game and release it that way.
I have the same problem with Arcadia VI. I've had that game for a long time, it is incomplete, and it would be a GREAT release to do, but I haven't had ANYONE contact me about this game (which is an Activision game)unlike the Hoppin' Mad interest.
From experience, I know that if you dump it and release it, the value drops, but if you paid little for it in the first place, then it's really your call on that.
I don't buy the whole "suing" thing completely. You would get a ceast and decist letter and that's about it.
Think about all the CGE released 2600 games that came out. Elevator Action? Snow White? Bugs Bunny? Hello Warner Bros and Disney?
That's why I am not so sure why bojay mentioned that on the DP thread, as he has been to tons of CGEs, and no one really mentions/talks about the licensing with those Atari games. Granted, yes, officially, it's copyright infringement, but these ROMS and emulators and supposed "back-up" copies are all in a gray area as well.
With that said, it's definitely tough to release something like this, but I think it would be neat if Hoppin Mad (and Arcadia VI) were picked up by someone and completed, but it's highly unlikely.
About Airball, Cue Stick, and Ditka. Those all came from my collection, and were as complete as could be.
That's why I am not so sure why bojay mentioned that on the DP thread, as he has been to tons of CGEs, and no one really mentions/talks about the licensing with those Atari games. Granted, yes, officially, it's copyright infringement, but these ROMS and emulators and supposed "back-up" copies are all in a gray area as well.
Legally there is no gray area. There is no such thing as abandonware, and whether a game was released or sold does not matter for copyright.
ROMs - completely legal, as long as you are dumping your own physical copy. You must make the back up, not download from somewhere. That's a good use for USB CopyNES!
Emulators - completely legal, as long as there is no copyright infringement. NES has no bios, so there is no problem. Other systems like Intellivision do so unless you find a third party bios those emulators are not legal.
I was the one who emailed him about Elite. There is probably not risk of a lawsuit, and Jason's "you would just get a cease and decist letter" comment is, frankly, disgusting.
This is not about laws, the point I made in my message to Mark is that Elite is a small group of really nice guys who I have exchanged emails with and who are willing to dig through their archives and talk about old stuff. They know you have this prototype already, because I told them. No one is going to care, legally, if you sell this thing, but if your first thought after finding an incomplete game is to ask a hacker to finish it instead of talking to its author, I can't help but question your appreciation for this hobby. If this is such a treasured game to you, why would you go out of your way to avoid its author to find out more, and - you never know - ask if he has a more complete build??
This conversation is completely absurd, and the unwillingness of some of you guys to acknowledge that living, breathing people made these games you claim to appreciate just blows my mind. Do what you want with the game, but if - god forbid - boxing up and selling Hoppin' Mad causes the guys at Elite to view retrogamers and game historians unfavorably and clam up instead of sharing their knowledge and maybe data (they've prototyped way more NES games than this, you know), I'm holding you responsible.
As for Jason's comment that Airball is "as complete as can be," the version that gamereproductions.com sells is a more complete build than retrousb's. Slightly off-topic, but just an FYI, you might want to consider switching your source ROMs or something for the next batch.
My advice: email Elite, say that you would like to put the ROMs onto a very small run of cartridges for hobbyists (make it clear that this is a hobbyist thing and not a profitable venture), ASK IF THEY WOULD LIKE A COMPLIMENTARY COPY, and ask if they might have a more complete build for you to work with.
Or have a hacker waste his time trying to complete the game, and hope Elite doesn't care and isn't porting the game to mobiles or something. Up to you.
And also, gamereproductions.com is selling the same exact copy of Airball that retrousb.com sells, since the owner, you know, dumped bunnyboy's release in order to sell his own.
And also, gamereproductions.com is selling the same exact copy of Airball that retrousb.com sells, since the owner, you know, dumped bunnyboy's release in order to sell his own.
No he didn't. He was selling stealth copies of Airball on ebay before bunnyboy even announced his, and there are graphical differences we have documented on the Lost Levels forums:
Comments
very well written and fun to read
Regarding contacting Ultra, I would leave them out of it. I know it's not very ethical, but they abandoned the software a long time ago, and it's not like you would be profiting off of the dump. I think there's a strong likelihood they'll want the cart back and stick to the corporate policy. It's one thing for the game companies to turn a blind eye to the unreleased stuff, but once they officially give you the ok to distribute Hoppin' Mad they have a lot to lose legally.
And about finishing it first, I personally think it would be cool to see it in it's current state, and if you made it available like it is now, you could get the homebrew scene to collaborate on wrapping it up.
I think finishing the game would be the way to go, because I think being in the business of selling unfinished repros or releases is sketchy and certain to disappoint quite a few customers.
As far as contacting the original company...I could see the novelty in talking to the original programmers but I doubt you're likely to find them at the original company.
Glad to hear it's backed up, that's what's important.
^^^ Not exactly true. While different than what the homebrewers are doing, you could do some major hex editing and rom hacking to finish up the third level just using the existing roms as a baseline. Not for the faint of heart, but it could be done without a complete rewrite.
^ this.
If the engine's there, all you need is to populate the level with existing bad guys. If the boss isn't done you'll have to play silly game genie code tricks or such to make it different (is there even a boss in any level of this game or are you just collecting balloons until there's no more to collect!) but there's no reason why a good hacker can't finish this up. Sivak?
1.) If you want it to be finished, then it will be finished, but the original untouched dump will still be out there, the historical aspect of it, so everyone can check it out.
2.) If people want to see it finished, they will know by playing the original proto of it. I guess you could look at it as a demo for the community or something, if you get what I'm saying.
I personally just don't see why the dump would be something to cling to. It was an abandoned project from years and years ago. It's hard to argue ethics of the dump on this matter because, well, everyone here has done some sort of emulation with commercial games at some point : P
Just my point of view. I still think it's a great find, MrMark, and would love for everyone to be able to experience the history of it, too.
Go to Option -> Movie and check "Start a record from reset". This way, when you start to record, it will reset the game to the beginning. Next, (while the ROM is loaded) Edit -> Movie -> Record. Play all you want, and when you're done recording Edit -> Movie -> Stop. I usually close out the ROM, then do Edit -> Movie -> AVI convert. Choose the ROM file in the appropriate box, Movie file that you just made, and what you want to name the final AVI in the third box. Usually you can set the Frame Rate to 1/2 FPS, but if there seems to be some stuff on screen that looks like it flashes every other frame, you might want to do 1/3 FPS, though usually 1/2 is fine. Click the Select Video Format button. I usually pick Indeo 5.10 myself, but you can pick whichever one you're comfortable with. Click OK, then click the Convert button.
That's all there is to it really.
As for completing it, I'd say you'd have to disassemble the whole thing first, which would be kind of a pain. It's possible though. I believe someone made a disassembly of Final Fantasy before, and successfully rebuilt the whole thing with code. I really couldn't tell you how long this would take, but I can safely say it would be awhile ; )
I discussed that game a couple issues ago in the eZine, so their information should be in there as well, I think. The main hacker on that is a master of hex editing hacks without the high-level tools most hackers rely on. For hacking up a 3rd stage, he would definitely be an asset.
Nonetheless, proto roms are always nice to see.
I have the same problem with Arcadia VI. I've had that game for a long time, it is incomplete, and it would be a GREAT release to do, but I haven't had ANYONE contact me about this game (which is an Activision game)unlike the Hoppin' Mad interest.
From experience, I know that if you dump it and release it, the value drops, but if you paid little for it in the first place, then it's really your call on that.
I don't buy the whole "suing" thing completely. You would get a ceast and decist letter and that's about it.
Think about all the CGE released 2600 games that came out. Elevator Action? Snow White? Bugs Bunny? Hello Warner Bros and Disney?
That's why I am not so sure why bojay mentioned that on the DP thread, as he has been to tons of CGEs, and no one really mentions/talks about the licensing with those Atari games. Granted, yes, officially, it's copyright infringement, but these ROMS and emulators and supposed "back-up" copies are all in a gray area as well.
With that said, it's definitely tough to release something like this, but I think it would be neat if Hoppin Mad (and Arcadia VI) were picked up by someone and completed, but it's highly unlikely.
About Airball, Cue Stick, and Ditka. Those all came from my collection, and were as complete as could be.
That's why I am not so sure why bojay mentioned that on the DP thread, as he has been to tons of CGEs, and no one really mentions/talks about the licensing with those Atari games. Granted, yes, officially, it's copyright infringement, but these ROMS and emulators and supposed "back-up" copies are all in a gray area as well.
Legally there is no gray area. There is no such thing as abandonware, and whether a game was released or sold does not matter for copyright.
.. risk a lawsuit by producing it..
I was the one who emailed him about Elite. There is probably not risk of a lawsuit, and Jason's "you would just get a cease and decist letter" comment is, frankly, disgusting.
This is not about laws, the point I made in my message to Mark is that Elite is a small group of really nice guys who I have exchanged emails with and who are willing to dig through their archives and talk about old stuff. They know you have this prototype already, because I told them. No one is going to care, legally, if you sell this thing, but if your first thought after finding an incomplete game is to ask a hacker to finish it instead of talking to its author, I can't help but question your appreciation for this hobby. If this is such a treasured game to you, why would you go out of your way to avoid its author to find out more, and - you never know - ask if he has a more complete build??
This conversation is completely absurd, and the unwillingness of some of you guys to acknowledge that living, breathing people made these games you claim to appreciate just blows my mind. Do what you want with the game, but if - god forbid - boxing up and selling Hoppin' Mad causes the guys at Elite to view retrogamers and game historians unfavorably and clam up instead of sharing their knowledge and maybe data (they've prototyped way more NES games than this, you know), I'm holding you responsible.
As for Jason's comment that Airball is "as complete as can be," the version that gamereproductions.com sells is a more complete build than retrousb's. Slightly off-topic, but just an FYI, you might want to consider switching your source ROMs or something for the next batch.
My advice: email Elite, say that you would like to put the ROMs onto a very small run of cartridges for hobbyists (make it clear that this is a hobbyist thing and not a profitable venture), ASK IF THEY WOULD LIKE A COMPLIMENTARY COPY, and ask if they might have a more complete build for you to work with.
Or have a hacker waste his time trying to complete the game, and hope Elite doesn't care and isn't porting the game to mobiles or something. Up to you.
And also, gamereproductions.com is selling the same exact copy of Airball that retrousb.com sells, since the owner, you know, dumped bunnyboy's release in order to sell his own.
No he didn't. He was selling stealth copies of Airball on ebay before bunnyboy even announced his, and there are graphical differences we have documented on the Lost Levels forums:
http://bmf.rustedlogic.net/misc/airballcomp.gif
Frank, any way you could you provide Mark with Elite's contact info?
I just used the contact form on their website.