How does dumping a game's ROM work?
This is one of those areas I don't know a whole lot about, but I'm curious.
Over in the Dankey Kang auction, someone brought up the point that the game's ROM is not lost, as it's on the carts that are being sold, and that someone else could dump it and ruin everyone's day. But see, I know squat about that stuff, so I'm kinda curious how dumping a game works out.
So, question one, how do you dump a game? It doesn't seem like it would be that easy to do, but I don't know. Figured I'd ask you experts.
Next, why would you dump a game? In some instances, I could get it. Like, if I can ever get my hands on SimCity for NES, I'd do a run of like 250, then dump the ROM like the Nolan's, because I want to get that game out there. But with Dankey Kang, it was someone's project and they want to keep it limited.
The closest example I can think of to illustrate what I don't understand is this: Paparazzi can get a lot of money for pics of celebrities, but they usually call all their buddies to come mob whoever they have found. Sarah Jessica Parker posed this question, "Why would you call your friends to join in on your steak? Why have just one bite when you could enjoy the whole thing?" In that sense, why would someone dump a ROM that's sole exclusivity is what makes it fun, valuable, or cool?
I can really only see two reasons, for money (so they could start reproing that title themselves and make money off it because it is exclusive) or to purposely fuck with those who bought a copy (this is the more extreme of the options, but it takes all kinds, so I won't rule it out).
But since I don't do this stuff, would like to hear from those that do. Thoughts?
Over in the Dankey Kang auction, someone brought up the point that the game's ROM is not lost, as it's on the carts that are being sold, and that someone else could dump it and ruin everyone's day. But see, I know squat about that stuff, so I'm kinda curious how dumping a game works out.
So, question one, how do you dump a game? It doesn't seem like it would be that easy to do, but I don't know. Figured I'd ask you experts.
Next, why would you dump a game? In some instances, I could get it. Like, if I can ever get my hands on SimCity for NES, I'd do a run of like 250, then dump the ROM like the Nolan's, because I want to get that game out there. But with Dankey Kang, it was someone's project and they want to keep it limited.
The closest example I can think of to illustrate what I don't understand is this: Paparazzi can get a lot of money for pics of celebrities, but they usually call all their buddies to come mob whoever they have found. Sarah Jessica Parker posed this question, "Why would you call your friends to join in on your steak? Why have just one bite when you could enjoy the whole thing?" In that sense, why would someone dump a ROM that's sole exclusivity is what makes it fun, valuable, or cool?
I can really only see two reasons, for money (so they could start reproing that title themselves and make money off it because it is exclusive) or to purposely fuck with those who bought a copy (this is the more extreme of the options, but it takes all kinds, so I won't rule it out).
But since I don't do this stuff, would like to hear from those that do. Thoughts?
Comments
That fucking with the collector value of the item in question is a symptom, not a cause.
From a technical level, if you have a "dumper" (either a CopyNES, or a chip reader where you pull the individual chips and hook them to your computer), there are pieces of software out there that extract and re-assemble the ROMs, assuming you know what mapper is used, so it can pick the correct header for the ROM file to be readable by emulators.
There is a barrier to entry in terms of hardware, but from what I understand that is a much higher barrier to entry than the actual technical side of doing it.
That is, once you have the ability to dump games, dumping any particular game should be pretty easy to do, assuming you know the mapper and it isn't something bizarre and exotic like NES FF7.
In the case of Danky Kang, the person doing the auctions could just ask the person who he had make the carts for a copy of the rom. Him coming up with ridiculous excuses instead of just saying "No, I don't want to release the rom" is what's annoying some people.
As for people getting butthurt over taking a rom hack, dumping it, and releasing it, that's just silly. It's okay for them to do it with another persons IP, but not okay for someone to do it to their hack, which contains no original data, except for maybe a graphic or 2.
As far as ROM dumping goes in regards to Dankey Kang, I don't think ANYBODY was thinking about buying a cart and dumping it until someone said that the original ROM was "lost forever". While I'm sure people can manipulate ROMs to make it more difficult to dump, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to do it. So why would someone say that it was gone forever? Does that make the only 19 carts made more valuable? If it was IMPOSSIBLE to recreate this item (even though several people have this ROM), wouldn't people spend more money to get one?
This is obviously a somewhat political answer to what could be a technical question, so I apologize if I am way out of line. Also, if someone who is more familiar with dumping could chime in and let us know if a ROM can be manipulated to be "undumpable", I think it would clear up a lot of questions.
EDIT: aaaand Adam answered the questions. Thanks.
So what is the Retron 5 doing? They had said something in my interview (2 minute mark) with them at TMG about how they were dealing with the ROMs from games or something like you could send them in so they could make it compatible. Are they dumping ROMs and that's what you would be sending into them?
Any thoughts on that?
Originally posted by: JimJames
As far as ROM dumping goes in regards to Dankey Kang, I don't think ANYBODY was thinking about buying a cart and dumping it until someone said that the original ROM was "lost forever". While I'm sure people can manipulate ROMs to make it more difficult to dump, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to do it. So why would someone say that it was gone forever? Does that make the only 19 carts made more valuable? If it was IMPOSSIBLE to recreate this item (even though several people have this ROM), wouldn't people spend more money to get one?
This is obviously a somewhat political answer to what could be a technical question, so I apologize if I am way out of line. Also, if someone who is more familiar with dumping could chime in and let us know if a ROM can be manipulated to be "undumpable", I think it would clear up a lot of questions.
Dankey Kang is just an example. What I was really trying to get at is if a cart exists of something, it can be dumped.
Now, you touched on another question I had, can a game be made to be undumpable? Let's go the other route. I find SimCity and now I only want to make... 15 carts, CIB, and then never again! Is there any way for me to stop someone from getting their hands on a copy and dumping it? Has anyone ever attempted something of that nature?
Originally posted by: 3GenGames
That has been covered in the retron 5 thread, but basically they just make a database of all the ROMS out there, and then keep the board info with it so they can just pull a ROM` from their internal database and emulate it.
They claim they have a database of headers/checksums and are dumping the actual cartridge at the time you use it.
Otherwise, what they're doing would be illegal.
Until somebody gets their hands onto one, there is no way to know what they are actually doing, though.
Originally posted by: JimJames
As far as ROM dumping goes in regards to Dankey Kang, I don't think ANYBODY was thinking about buying a cart and dumping it until someone said that the original ROM was "lost forever". While I'm sure people can manipulate ROMs to make it more difficult to dump, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to do it. So why would someone say that it was gone forever? Does that make the only 19 carts made more valuable? If it was IMPOSSIBLE to recreate this item (even though several people have this ROM), wouldn't people spend more money to get one?
This is obviously a somewhat political answer to what could be a technical question, so I apologize if I am way out of line. Also, if someone who is more familiar with dumping could chime in and let us know if a ROM can be manipulated to be "undumpable", I think it would clear up a lot of questions.
Dankey Kang is just an example. What I was really trying to get at is if a cart exists of something, it can be dumped.
Now, you touched on another question I had, can a game be made to be undumpable? Let's go the other route. I find SimCity and now I only want to make... 15 carts, CIB, and then never again! Is there any way for me to stop someone from getting their hands on a copy and dumping it? Has anyone ever attempted something of that nature?
Nothing is undumpable, but there are ways to make it very, very difficult. Remember, the rom data has to be accessed to be playable, so there will always be a method.
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
Originally posted by: JimJames
As far as ROM dumping goes in regards to Dankey Kang, I don't think ANYBODY was thinking about buying a cart and dumping it until someone said that the original ROM was "lost forever". While I'm sure people can manipulate ROMs to make it more difficult to dump, it certainly wouldn't be impossible to do it. So why would someone say that it was gone forever? Does that make the only 19 carts made more valuable? If it was IMPOSSIBLE to recreate this item (even though several people have this ROM), wouldn't people spend more money to get one?
This is obviously a somewhat political answer to what could be a technical question, so I apologize if I am way out of line. Also, if someone who is more familiar with dumping could chime in and let us know if a ROM can be manipulated to be "undumpable", I think it would clear up a lot of questions.
Dankey Kang is just an example. What I was really trying to get at is if a cart exists of something, it can be dumped.
Now, you touched on another question I had, can a game be made to be undumpable? Let's go the other route. I find SimCity and now I only want to make... 15 carts, CIB, and then never again! Is there any way for me to stop someone from getting their hands on a copy and dumping it? Has anyone ever attempted something of that nature?
The closest people have come, that I know of, is when they write their own games from scratch the "invent" a unique mapper, since while that may not prevent dumping, it does greatly inhibit the ability to make reproductions from the dumped information.
But in reality there is almost certainly no technical hurdle that you could devise that somebody else couldn't eventually figure out how to defeat. And to attempt to come up with hurdles is a wasted effort for something like a hack or dumped prototype.
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
Dankey Kang is just an example. What I was really trying to get at is if a cart exists of something, it can be dumped.
Now, you touched on another question I had, can a game be made to be undumpable? Let's go the other route. I find SimCity and now I only want to make... 15 carts, CIB, and then never again! Is there any way for me to stop someone from getting their hands on a copy and dumping it? Has anyone ever attempted something of that nature?
There are ways to make the rom harder to get, but it's impossible to protect it fully. Digital media can and WILL be dumped by somebody eventually.
At the same time, if you have a new game/hack. Shouldn't you want people to be able to play it? That's like saying i created something I'm very proud of, but I'm only going to show my parents.
Edit: dammit adam, one-upping everybody today
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
So what is the Retron 5 doing? They had said something in my interview (2 minute mark) with them at TMG about how they were dealing with the ROMs from games or something like you could send them in so they could make it compatible. Are they dumping ROMs and that's what you would be sending into them?
Any thoughts on that?
Yeah, basically what 3 Gen said. Games that don't appear in the ROM database that the Retron 5 uses (Homebrews, unreleased prototypes, etc.) won't be playable on the Retron as it won't recognize them as a NES games.
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
This is one of those areas I don't know a whole lot about, but I'm curious.
Over in the Dankey Kang auction, someone brought up the point that the game's ROM is not lost, as it's on the carts that are being sold, and that someone else could dump it and ruin everyone's day. But see, I know squat about that stuff, so I'm kinda curious how dumping a game works out.
So, question one, how do you dump a game? It doesn't seem like it would be that easy to do, but I don't know. Figured I'd ask you experts.
Next, why would you dump a game? In some instances, I could get it. Like, if I can ever get my hands on SimCity for NES, I'd do a run of like 250, then dump the ROM like the Nolan's, because I want to get that game out there. But with Dankey Kang, it was someone's project and they want to keep it limited.
The closest example I can think of to illustrate what I don't understand is this: Paparazzi can get a lot of money for pics of celebrities, but they usually call all their buddies to come mob whoever they have found. Sarah Jessica Parker posed this question, "Why would you call your friends to join in on your steak? Why have just one bite when you could enjoy the whole thing?" In that sense, why would someone dump a ROM that's sole exclusivity is what makes it fun, valuable, or cool?
I can really only see two reasons, for money (so they could start reproing that title themselves and make money off it because it is exclusive) or to purposely fuck with those who bought a copy (this is the more extreme of the options, but it takes all kinds, so I won't rule it out).
But since I don't do this stuff, would like to hear from those that do. Thoughts?
I'd have to say there is absolutely a 3rd reason out there that you've missed and it's probably fitting for the majority.
Dumping the rom in order to share it for the purpose of including anyone and everyone who might find joy in the game, but didn't have a means to acquire the cart. Whether they didn't have $300 to fork over on a single NES game, or they did have the money but bid too soon and got pushed out because of the 1-time bid scheme, or maybe they found out about the game only after the auction closed.
The motive doesn't have to be spiteful. As far as I'm concerned, if any of the people buying the cart care more about it's "rarity" than enjoying the game and appreciating the work and ideas that went into it, then they don't deserve to have it in the 1st place.
What I mean is, say this game was mass produced. Over a million copies out there. Would they even give it a 2nd glance, or does the fact that it's "limited" somehow make it worthy of their attention?
I'd like to play the game. I don't think that my playing of the game on an emulator would "devalue" the carts that were produced. But, so what if it does? If what people are concerned with is the monitary value the game holds, then they are missing the spirit in which the game was created in the first place. It's a novelty item and was created as a gaming joke. It's not meant to be taken so seriously.
I get that this is (at heart) a collector site and, because of the nature of collecting, many people like to have unique items. But if you ask me, we need to free Dankey Kang.
And I'm wondering, has someone ever dumped a game that the owner(s) of the original didn't want dumped?
On the romhacks side,There are TONS of hacks that you can just grab off of Romhacking.net that people reproduce all the time and I never really see credit given to the people who made them.
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
Alright, so I'm a homebrewer. I've written a game and I'm ready to sell it. Let's use Piko, for example. He's getting IP rights to stuff and making new games. There is nothing he can do to protect his investment, ever? Whether it be something written into the code to not allow a dump, or maybe doing something done to the chip or board so if you removed it it would be destroyed?
And I'm wondering, has someone ever dumped a game that the owner(s) of the original didn't want dumped?
The best thing would put bank switching so fine, that the current emulator/dumper inside the game wouldn't be able to checksum the whole darn thing because mappers boot randomly sometimes. They probably have programmed around that. But, they have not done it in 8-16 byte banks, I am sure. And I don't think they'd waste their time checksumming all of that.
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
Alright, so I'm a homebrewer. I've written a game and I'm ready to sell it. Let's use Piko, for example. He's getting IP rights to stuff and making new games. There is nothing he can do to protect his investment, ever? Whether it be something written into the code to not allow a dump, or maybe doing something done to the chip or board so if you removed it it would be destroyed?
And I'm wondering, has someone ever dumped a game that the owner(s) of the original didn't want dumped?
I have heard rumors that there are dumps of Battle Kid out there, since it uses a common mapper.
The prevention of dumping legitimate homebrew is that there is huge pressure from the community to discourage it.
If somebody started selling reproductions of Battle Kid or Study Hall, they would be ostracized and if it was handled correctly, they would face real legal consequences.
So you can't necessarily prevent a dump, but you can mitigate the presence of illegitimate copies through community pressure and awareness.
Whether that level of reverence is deserved by a hack, or not, (at least in terms of dumping and releasing the ROM) is highly debatable.
With a homebrew, the author owns everything, and has legal rights.
WIth a hack, the author has no rights to speak of, and is actually infringing on someone else' copyright in the first place.
Originally posted by: Ferris Bueller
Alright, so I'm a homebrewer. I've written a game and I'm ready to sell it. Let's use Piko, for example. He's getting IP rights to stuff and making new games. There is nothing he can do to protect his investment, ever? Whether it be something written into the code to not allow a dump, or maybe doing something done to the chip or board so if you removed it it would be destroyed?
And I'm wondering, has someone ever dumped a game that the owner(s) of the original didn't want dumped?
From VHS tapes with the little black switch to ridiculously complicated codes in new gen games, everything can be copied. There isn't anything you can do to protect it. If you released your own game, the smartest thing you could do is make the release as appealing as possible and make a lot (100 copies or more). Do it up right with a nice case, pack-ins, good artwork, number those suckers, and every version after yours will look like shit in comparison.
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I have heard rumors that there are dumps of Battle Kid out there, since it uses a common mapper.
oh man, battle kid being dumped isn't a rumor. A quick google search will tell ya that, I have it on my softmodded psp. At the same time, I have a cart too
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I have heard rumors that there are dumps of Battle Kid out there, since it uses a common mapper.
oh man, battle kid being dumped isn't a rumor. A quick google search will tell ya that, I have it on my softmodded psp. At the same time, I have a cart too
I don't actively search for ROMs, and certainly not ROMs of homebrew.
But the fact stands that we aren't being flooded by illegitimate copies of one of the best homebrew games out there, even with the ROM dumped and available. And I think that is in no small part to community pressure and the realization that a person who did it would face consequences. (since you can release a ROM fairly anonymously, but once you are shipping hardware and accepting money, you can be found)
It does thoroughly disgust me that people would dump and release current homebrew games with known rights-holders and authors. (i.e. in NO WAY could it be self-justified as "abandonware", AND there is an active member of the community being damaged by the distribution)
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I have heard rumors that there are dumps of Battle Kid out there, since it uses a common mapper.
oh man, battle kid being dumped isn't a rumor. A quick google search will tell ya that, I have it on my softmodded psp. At the same time, I have a cart too
I don't actively search for ROMs, and certainly not ROMs of homebrew.
But the fact stands that we aren't being flooded by illegitimate copies of one of the best homebrew games out there, even with the ROM dumped and available.
It does thoroughly disgust me that people would dump and release current homebrew games with known rights-holders and authors. (i.e. in NO WAY could it be self-justified as "abandonware", AND there is an active member of the community being damaged by the distribution)
I unno about that man. As much as people like to stand up against roms, there have been a ton of games I've bought just because i've been able to play it through emulators first.
Perfect Example: Ever since Dra600n released his Fix it Felix rom. I'm seriously debating on buying a cart. I really enjoy the game and i'd like to be able to play it on my genesis, AND have a copy for my collection.
There are two COMPLETELY different ends of the spectrum though. It all depends on how you look at it though.
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I have heard rumors that there are dumps of Battle Kid out there, since it uses a common mapper.
oh man, battle kid being dumped isn't a rumor. A quick google search will tell ya that, I have it on my softmodded psp. At the same time, I have a cart too
I don't actively search for ROMs, and certainly not ROMs of homebrew.
But the fact stands that we aren't being flooded by illegitimate copies of one of the best homebrew games out there, even with the ROM dumped and available.
It does thoroughly disgust me that people would dump and release current homebrew games with known rights-holders and authors. (i.e. in NO WAY could it be self-justified as "abandonware", AND there is an active member of the community being damaged by the distribution)
I unno about that man. As much as people like to stand up against roms, there have been a ton of games I've bought just because i've been able to play it through emulators first.
Perfect Example: Ever since Dra600n released his Fix it Felix rom. I'm seriously debating on buying a cart. I really enjoy the game and i'd like to be able to play it on my genesis, AND have a copy for my collection.
There are two COMPLETELY different ends of the spectrum though. It all depends on how you look at it though.
The difference is Dra600n chose to release his ROM. He made that choice. The choice wasn't taken from him.
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I have heard rumors that there are dumps of Battle Kid out there, since it uses a common mapper.
oh man, battle kid being dumped isn't a rumor. A quick google search will tell ya that, I have it on my softmodded psp. At the same time, I have a cart too
I don't actively search for ROMs, and certainly not ROMs of homebrew.
But the fact stands that we aren't being flooded by illegitimate copies of one of the best homebrew games out there, even with the ROM dumped and available.
It does thoroughly disgust me that people would dump and release current homebrew games with known rights-holders and authors. (i.e. in NO WAY could it be self-justified as "abandonware", AND there is an active member of the community being damaged by the distribution)
I unno about that man. As much as people like to stand up against roms, there have been a ton of games I've bought just because i've been able to play it through emulators first.
Perfect Example: Ever since Dra600n released his Fix it Felix rom. I'm seriously debating on buying a cart. I really enjoy the game and i'd like to be able to play it on my genesis, AND have a copy for my collection.
There are two COMPLETELY different ends of the spectrum though. It all depends on how you look at it though.
Honestly, I thought releasing the rom would've prevented any further sales, aside from maybe a small handful (I was estimating 3 to 5 being sold), but much to my surprise, I've sold a fair amount (about 30) of cart only copies due to the release.
I definitely see the benefits of releasing the rom, especially now, but I also know the other end of that spectrum. I think the coolest thing that's happened due to the rom release was the offer of sending a donation for the work I've put in and releasing the rom, which in all honesty is much more personal and meaningful than someone buying a physical copy, at least to me.
Anyway, that's way off topic here lol sorry for derailing
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
The difference is Dra600n chose to release his ROM. He made that choice. The choice wasn't taken from him.
He made the choice because he knew that someone else would do it eventually. I'm sure he came to terms with that whenever he was making the game.
Originally posted by: Majesty ZX
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
The difference is Dra600n chose to release his ROM. He made that choice. The choice wasn't taken from him.
He made the choice because he knew that someone else would do it eventually. I'm sure he came to terms with that whenever he was making the game.
Yes, some sack of shit is inevitably going to dump homebrew against the author's wishes.
The best we can do is stand up against somebody making physical illegitimate copies for profit, since the digital data is just too hard to control, if it even can be.
Originally posted by: dra600n
Digital data is only controllable if it's never released and located on a device that isn't connected to the internet, though I fear future technology would make even that unsafe from digital theft
Meta-plot of your next homebrew?
Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
Originally posted by: dra600n
Digital data is only controllable if it's never released and located on a device that isn't connected to the internet, though I fear future technology would make even that unsafe from digital theft
Meta-plot of your next homebrew?
Could be!
Originally posted by: dra600n
Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
Originally posted by: dra600n
Digital data is only controllable if it's never released and located on a device that isn't connected to the internet, though I fear future technology would make even that unsafe from digital theft
Meta-plot of your next homebrew?
Could be!
I totally see a monaco-like game coming right out of that plot.