This thread has got me wanting to play some Final Fantasy I may need to rectify that soon. I've been meaning to play an RPG this year, and that one may be it.
I agree that RPGs are like digital novels...well, the good RPGs, anyway.
Jeff Rovin once said that Final Fantasy is far more complicated than the Zelda games and thus is perfect for those (like I'm presuming yourself) who have mastered the NES adventures of Hyrule!
As far as relating to characters on a visual level, graphics will obviously play a large role in that. The more you can see of them, and the clearer those sprites/3D models are, the easier it is to empathize. However, pretty graphics are not sufficient to create a visual connection--they have to be used well.
For instance, I found the characters in Tales of Phantasia to be very relatable, particularly because the programmers included little "emoticon" thought bubbles. I always got a kick out of it when an awkward situation arose, and a sweat drop thought bubble would pop up by the embarrassed character(s). Little things like that really help connect you to the characters.
Yeah, I've been kind of on the fence about thought bubbles. Portraits are the one thing that for some reason really breaks my connection to the characters. I'm sure that it was designed to assist in this, but for me it has the opposite effect.
Yeah, I've been kind of on the fence about thought bubbles. Portraits are the one thing that for some reason really breaks my connection to the characters. I'm sure that it was designed to assist in this, but for me it has the opposite effect.
I hear you on that front. I'm really not a fan of a portrait popping up with a text box. For me, that makes it seem like the characters moving around on screen (the ones I'm supposed to be relating to) are not the ones talking, but rather some other people that randomly pop up from time to time. The portraits look quite different from the in-game sprite, which is probably what does it for me.
Visual cues are huge. Locke and Edge swooning over Terra using magic the first time they see it, simply nudging a sprite over to create a kiss, making characters run into each other and bounce back to simulate a duel, etch. The old sprite graphics were great because it gave you a solid visual idea of what was happening and your imagination would fill in the blanks.
A lot of SNES RPGs do this to an extreme and it really makes them stand out. I was always confused that many PS2 RPGs, especially the early ones, had such ....inanimate characters. What happened?
Unless you have voice acting or some other technical reason I like the ability to name characters although I rarely do especially in JRPGs.
Portraits are great. It allows one to add a touch of emotion to the text although its completely unnecessary.
There is a lot of emotion one could pass in a single line of text before visual cues. Most of us have been invested in the story and characters of old RPGs even when the text was limited. How often does a character in an NES game say more than 20 words in a row and yet still managed to be engaging.
Which brings up Camelot. I am probably alone on this but one thing I like about old RPGs is how efficient conversation was. A good writer can put a lot of emotion, ideas, and move/explain the story along (what's the word for that?), with few words.
In the Golden Sun games and Shining Force III conversation was miserable. Characters would have a emotion bubble, say something, play some animation, then another would have an emotion bubble, would say something, play an animation, then show another thought bubble, and the first would reply, after another animation, and another emotion bubble, and on and on. It took characters several minutes to say nothing and it pisses me off more than it bores me. Between the old games and Golden Sun there is a balance but I prefer going strongly away from emotion bubbles.
As for your future RPG a minor suggestion on the combat system:
Make combat fast, simple, and fun, but with customization so there are different play styles. Panzer Dragoon Saga, FFVII, Valkyrie Profile, Diablo 2, Saga Frontier, and WoW are a few that come to mind. All have fast, simple, yet varied, battle systems.
After all, its the characters, story, world, and skinner box, that makes RPGs addictive, not a slow boring menu system.
Visual cues are huge. Locke and Edge swooning over Terra using magic the first time they see it, simply nudging a sprite over to create a kiss, making characters run into each other and bounce back to simulate a duel, etch. The old sprite graphics were great because it gave you a solid visual idea of what was happening and your imagination would fill in the blanks.
A lot of SNES RPGs do this to an extreme and it really makes them stand out. I was always confused that many PS2 RPGs, especially the early ones, had such ....inanimate characters. What happened?
...
There is a lot of emotion one could pass in a single line of text before visual cues. Most of us have been invested in the story and characters of old RPGs even when the text was limited. How often does a character in an NES game say more than 20 words in a row and yet still managed to be engaging.
Absolutely agree with these points. Great visual cues with poignant text. No need to be wordy or fancy, but realistic and filled with the proper emotion are key.
As for your future RPG a minor suggestion on the combat system:
Make combat fast, simple, and fun, but with customization so there are different play styles. Panzer Dragoon Saga, FFVII, Valkyrie Profile, Diablo 2, Saga Frontier, and WoW are a few that come to mind. All have fast, simple, yet varied, battle systems.
After all, its the characters, story, world, and skinner box, that makes RPGs addictive, not a slow boring menu system.
Don't worry, we'll get to the battle system questions soon.
I'm still trying to figure out what level of characterization will work best on the NES due to the visual limitations (and seeking for ways to overcome them , technically but also practically). The story that I am going to tell is going to fit whatever is going on in the game world. In other words, there may be a less detailed level of story and depth of characterization in order to fit the visuals, if that makes sense. To me, the lack of things like place-specific visuals helped when playing as a more generic character (Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy Legend, etc.). In contrast, with 16-bit games I felt more connected visually, and expected the story to be more specific and fleshed out. It was not enough to defeat the Dragon Emperor in these games, but I also had to get to know everyone involved and all of the sub-plots. There were a few games that mixed these up, and they always felt kind if flat. Rich lush worlds, but characters that lacked depth (and not simply due to poor writing). Likewise, there were some very bland games whose characters were well written and highly detailed, but there was a disonance when that occurred.
That's where I am at with graphics at the moment. They need to mesh with the level/depth of story (in addition to everything else of course). But since the NES limitations, particularly when dealing with sprites, are so stringent, anything that can boost the level of character depth will be good to weigh against this.
And in case anyone is curious, I'm not going to really dive into this until the spring due to Family Vacation being in full swing, so there is plenty of time to discuss small details and the like without any rush.
Another minor, yet strange, detail I've always enjoyed in games is text delivery. Final Fantasy Tactics was amazing in this regard although others have done it just as well.
For those not in the know, as text appeared on screen the game would "beep" as each letter appeared. The tone could be raised and lowered as well as sped up and down creating unique "voices" for characters and carrying a surprising amount of feeling in an non-obvious, unobtrusive way, unlike games that use emoticons like a crutch. It also simulated pauses in speech way better than, "...," so you don't end up with this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/02/22
I vaguely recall this being a thing in some NES games so that may be possible with that level of technology. And taking the console into consideration, skip portraits. As others have mentioned before, it could be jarring to have a detailed portrait for a character that is only a dozen pixels.
This is hearsay but legend has it that Yoshitaka Amano, after doing art for the first Final Fantasy, or two, or whatever, tried drawing "spritier" characters to match the games he was working on and was told to knock that shit off. All it did was highlight the game's low tech graphics instead of bringing more imagination into the world:
Another minor, yet strange, detail I've always enjoyed in games is text delivery. Final Fantasy Tactics was amazing in this regard although others have done it just as well.
For those not in the know, as text appeared on screen the game would "beep" as each letter appeared. The tone could be raised and lowered as well as sped up and down creating unique "voices" for characters and carrying a surprising amount of feeling in an non-obvious, unobtrusive way, unlike games that use emoticons like a crutch. It also simulated pauses in speech way better than, "...," so you don't end up with this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic...
I vaguely recall this being a thing in some NES games so that may be possible with that level of technology. And taking the console into consideration, skip portraits. As others have mentioned before, it could be jarring to have a detailed portrait for a character that is only a dozen pixels.
This is hearsay but legend has it that Yoshitaka Amano, after doing art for the first Final Fantasy, or two, or whatever, tried drawing "spritier" characters to match the games he was working on and was told to knock that shit off. All it did was highlight the game's low tech graphics instead of bringing more imagination into the world:
Dude, YES! I've always loved the little details you speak about here in your post. FF Tactics is excellent. I've never cared for RPG titles that tried to use avatars, because it always felt super-cheesy and off to me. When text is scrolling fast, and those things are bouncing around, it can make it more confusing. Gimme da bleeps
Yeah, I've always found the beeps to be helpful. Not typewriter text like in Deja Vu, but some nicer noises for sure. I'm currently re-playing Radiant Historia and enjoying the way that they make the narrative come alive. Different speeds, pitches, etc.
Funny that you bring up Amano's art, since it is one of the things that I have never really cared for (heresy, I know). For me it always broke the connection between what I experienced in the game and what I got the feeling the artist was hoping to portray. Kind of like "if we could do this, we would, but instead you get these little sprites." It kind of cheapened what the game actually presented. I have a good feeling I'll be in the minority on that .
I've done a few different ways of displaying text and types of text boxes for Family Vacation, and what fits in that project is pretty set, but for an RPG I am wondering about different ways to position the text box. What makes for better reading, feels more personal or real, or simply conveys information in a better format? This would all be from a bird's eye perspective of course.
Looking over several games, there are a few standard options.
Full width: games that use this layout have the textbox appear, and it cover the entire width of the screen. They usually stretch to the top of the screen.
Partial Width: Games that use this method partially cover the screen, but still hint at what lies beyond the text box. The sizes of the boxes vary widely, from missing a column or two, to only taking up a small section of the screen.
Thought Bubble: This is not found in all that many games, that I could think of at least, but Super Bat Puncher uses it to great effect. The small screenshot from Roth's new RPG might also be using something similar.
I could go on and on and analyse these different types, but what are your thoughts? What am I missing, what works, what doesn't, etc.?
If the game has a large stat area, I prefer that area be used. Otherwise a partial width that covers MOST of the screen. You want to have some areas visible around it just to give the feel that it's floating there.
Also related to text that few games do, allow you to read text that's already been read. In a game demo I was doing I allowed people to scroll the text, so you use up and down arrows, that was just odd. The way I find works the best is one that looks like final fantasy, maybe have an icon to let people know there's more text. Then when they go to page two, have an arrow pointing to the left to indicate back, and I generally use the left directional pad to allow people to go back in text.
And if you want to be fancy and "draw" the text one letter at a time, allow an option to skip it completely. And if you do a yes\no type questions ever in the text, do not have a default selection so people who mash the button accidently select something,
And if you want to be fancy and "draw" the text one letter at a time, allow an option to skip it completely. And if you do a yes\no type questions ever in the text, do not have a default selection so people who mash the button accidently select something,
I don't remember which game I was recently playing that allowed text to skip from being loaded a character or two at a time to the full block at once (Treasure of the Rudras?), but it is definitely a needed feature. It vastly improved the enjoyment of reading the text, and re-reading dialogs when trying to re-find information or check for conditional changes.
I agree to about optional things, otherwise what's the point. I always chose the good/right answer to things ("will you help save the princess?" always "yes"), but now that I have gone back and played some of the games that I did this in, I purposely choose other options, only to be met with a loop until the "right" answer is chosen, or my choice is entirely ignored and the story goes on the same. It needs to serve a purpose if it is present, that is for sure.
Yeah, I've always found the beeps to be helpful. Not typewriter text like in Deja Vu, but some nicer noises for sure. I'm currently re-playing Radiant Historia and enjoying the way that they make the narrative come alive. Different speeds, pitches, etc.
Shining Force does this as well. Really helps gives the characters "voices".
Edit: My only thoughts on dialogue windows is having them able to display on either the top or bottom of the screen as necessary not to cover over the characters speaking.
Comments
This thread has got me wanting to play some Final Fantasy I may need to rectify that soon. I've been meaning to play an RPG this year, and that one may be it.
I agree that RPGs are like digital novels...well, the good RPGs, anyway.
Jeff Rovin once said that Final Fantasy is far more complicated than the Zelda games and thus is perfect for those (like I'm presuming yourself) who have mastered the NES adventures of Hyrule!
For instance, I found the characters in Tales of Phantasia to be very relatable, particularly because the programmers included little "emoticon" thought bubbles. I always got a kick out of it when an awkward situation arose, and a sweat drop thought bubble would pop up by the embarrassed character(s). Little things like that really help connect you to the characters.
Originally posted by: SoleGooseProductions
Yeah, I've been kind of on the fence about thought bubbles. Portraits are the one thing that for some reason really breaks my connection to the characters. I'm sure that it was designed to assist in this, but for me it has the opposite effect.
I hear you on that front. I'm really not a fan of a portrait popping up with a text box. For me, that makes it seem like the characters moving around on screen (the ones I'm supposed to be relating to) are not the ones talking, but rather some other people that randomly pop up from time to time. The portraits look quite different from the in-game sprite, which is probably what does it for me.
A lot of SNES RPGs do this to an extreme and it really makes them stand out. I was always confused that many PS2 RPGs, especially the early ones, had such ....inanimate characters. What happened?
Unless you have voice acting or some other technical reason I like the ability to name characters although I rarely do especially in JRPGs.
Portraits are great. It allows one to add a touch of emotion to the text although its completely unnecessary.
There is a lot of emotion one could pass in a single line of text before visual cues. Most of us have been invested in the story and characters of old RPGs even when the text was limited. How often does a character in an NES game say more than 20 words in a row and yet still managed to be engaging.
Which brings up Camelot. I am probably alone on this but one thing I like about old RPGs is how efficient conversation was. A good writer can put a lot of emotion, ideas, and move/explain the story along (what's the word for that?), with few words.
In the Golden Sun games and Shining Force III conversation was miserable. Characters would have a emotion bubble, say something, play some animation, then another would have an emotion bubble, would say something, play an animation, then show another thought bubble, and the first would reply, after another animation, and another emotion bubble, and on and on. It took characters several minutes to say nothing and it pisses me off more than it bores me. Between the old games and Golden Sun there is a balance but I prefer going strongly away from emotion bubbles.
As for your future RPG a minor suggestion on the combat system:
Make combat fast, simple, and fun, but with customization so there are different play styles. Panzer Dragoon Saga, FFVII, Valkyrie Profile, Diablo 2, Saga Frontier, and WoW are a few that come to mind. All have fast, simple, yet varied, battle systems.
After all, its the characters, story, world, and skinner box, that makes RPGs addictive, not a slow boring menu system.
Originally posted by: Entity
Visual cues are huge. Locke and Edge swooning over Terra using magic the first time they see it, simply nudging a sprite over to create a kiss, making characters run into each other and bounce back to simulate a duel, etch. The old sprite graphics were great because it gave you a solid visual idea of what was happening and your imagination would fill in the blanks.
A lot of SNES RPGs do this to an extreme and it really makes them stand out. I was always confused that many PS2 RPGs, especially the early ones, had such ....inanimate characters. What happened?
...
There is a lot of emotion one could pass in a single line of text before visual cues. Most of us have been invested in the story and characters of old RPGs even when the text was limited. How often does a character in an NES game say more than 20 words in a row and yet still managed to be engaging.
Absolutely agree with these points. Great visual cues with poignant text. No need to be wordy or fancy, but realistic and filled with the proper emotion are key.
Originally posted by: Entity
As for your future RPG a minor suggestion on the combat system:
Make combat fast, simple, and fun, but with customization so there are different play styles. Panzer Dragoon Saga, FFVII, Valkyrie Profile, Diablo 2, Saga Frontier, and WoW are a few that come to mind. All have fast, simple, yet varied, battle systems.
After all, its the characters, story, world, and skinner box, that makes RPGs addictive, not a slow boring menu system.
Don't worry, we'll get to the battle system questions soon.
I'm still trying to figure out what level of characterization will work best on the NES due to the visual limitations (and seeking for ways to overcome them , technically but also practically). The story that I am going to tell is going to fit whatever is going on in the game world. In other words, there may be a less detailed level of story and depth of characterization in order to fit the visuals, if that makes sense. To me, the lack of things like place-specific visuals helped when playing as a more generic character (Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy Legend, etc.). In contrast, with 16-bit games I felt more connected visually, and expected the story to be more specific and fleshed out. It was not enough to defeat the Dragon Emperor in these games, but I also had to get to know everyone involved and all of the sub-plots. There were a few games that mixed these up, and they always felt kind if flat. Rich lush worlds, but characters that lacked depth (and not simply due to poor writing). Likewise, there were some very bland games whose characters were well written and highly detailed, but there was a disonance when that occurred.
That's where I am at with graphics at the moment. They need to mesh with the level/depth of story (in addition to everything else of course). But since the NES limitations, particularly when dealing with sprites, are so stringent, anything that can boost the level of character depth will be good to weigh against this.
And in case anyone is curious, I'm not going to really dive into this until the spring due to Family Vacation being in full swing, so there is plenty of time to discuss small details and the like without any rush.
For those not in the know, as text appeared on screen the game would "beep" as each letter appeared. The tone could be raised and lowered as well as sped up and down creating unique "voices" for characters and carrying a surprising amount of feeling in an non-obvious, unobtrusive way, unlike games that use emoticons like a crutch. It also simulated pauses in speech way better than, "...," so you don't end up with this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/02/22
I vaguely recall this being a thing in some NES games so that may be possible with that level of technology. And taking the console into consideration, skip portraits. As others have mentioned before, it could be jarring to have a detailed portrait for a character that is only a dozen pixels.
This is hearsay but legend has it that Yoshitaka Amano, after doing art for the first Final Fantasy, or two, or whatever, tried drawing "spritier" characters to match the games he was working on and was told to knock that shit off. All it did was highlight the game's low tech graphics instead of bringing more imagination into the world:
Another minor, yet strange, detail I've always enjoyed in games is text delivery. Final Fantasy Tactics was amazing in this regard although others have done it just as well.
For those not in the know, as text appeared on screen the game would "beep" as each letter appeared. The tone could be raised and lowered as well as sped up and down creating unique "voices" for characters and carrying a surprising amount of feeling in an non-obvious, unobtrusive way, unlike games that use emoticons like a crutch. It also simulated pauses in speech way better than, "...," so you don't end up with this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic...
I vaguely recall this being a thing in some NES games so that may be possible with that level of technology. And taking the console into consideration, skip portraits. As others have mentioned before, it could be jarring to have a detailed portrait for a character that is only a dozen pixels.
This is hearsay but legend has it that Yoshitaka Amano, after doing art for the first Final Fantasy, or two, or whatever, tried drawing "spritier" characters to match the games he was working on and was told to knock that shit off. All it did was highlight the game's low tech graphics instead of bringing more imagination into the world:
Dude, YES! I've always loved the little details you speak about here in your post. FF Tactics is excellent. I've never cared for RPG titles that tried to use avatars, because it always felt super-cheesy and off to me. When text is scrolling fast, and those things are bouncing around, it can make it more confusing. Gimme da bleeps
Great artwork, btw!
Funny that you bring up Amano's art, since it is one of the things that I have never really cared for (heresy, I know). For me it always broke the connection between what I experienced in the game and what I got the feeling the artist was hoping to portray. Kind of like "if we could do this, we would, but instead you get these little sprites." It kind of cheapened what the game actually presented. I have a good feeling I'll be in the minority on that .
The Presentation of Dialog:
I've done a few different ways of displaying text and types of text boxes for Family Vacation, and what fits in that project is pretty set, but for an RPG I am wondering about different ways to position the text box. What makes for better reading, feels more personal or real, or simply conveys information in a better format? This would all be from a bird's eye perspective of course.
Looking over several games, there are a few standard options.
Full width: games that use this layout have the textbox appear, and it cover the entire width of the screen. They usually stretch to the top of the screen.
Partial Width: Games that use this method partially cover the screen, but still hint at what lies beyond the text box. The sizes of the boxes vary widely, from missing a column or two, to only taking up a small section of the screen.
Thought Bubble: This is not found in all that many games, that I could think of at least, but Super Bat Puncher uses it to great effect. The small screenshot from Roth's new RPG might also be using something similar.
I could go on and on and analyse these different types, but what are your thoughts? What am I missing, what works, what doesn't, etc.?
Also related to text that few games do, allow you to read text that's already been read. In a game demo I was doing I allowed people to scroll the text, so you use up and down arrows, that was just odd. The way I find works the best is one that looks like final fantasy, maybe have an icon to let people know there's more text. Then when they go to page two, have an arrow pointing to the left to indicate back, and I generally use the left directional pad to allow people to go back in text.
And if you want to be fancy and "draw" the text one letter at a time, allow an option to skip it completely. And if you do a yes\no type questions ever in the text, do not have a default selection so people who mash the button accidently select something,
Originally posted by: Ozzy_98
...
And if you want to be fancy and "draw" the text one letter at a time, allow an option to skip it completely. And if you do a yes\no type questions ever in the text, do not have a default selection so people who mash the button accidently select something,
I don't remember which game I was recently playing that allowed text to skip from being loaded a character or two at a time to the full block at once (Treasure of the Rudras?), but it is definitely a needed feature. It vastly improved the enjoyment of reading the text, and re-reading dialogs when trying to re-find information or check for conditional changes.
I agree to about optional things, otherwise what's the point. I always chose the good/right answer to things ("will you help save the princess?" always "yes"), but now that I have gone back and played some of the games that I did this in, I purposely choose other options, only to be met with a loop until the "right" answer is chosen, or my choice is entirely ignored and the story goes on the same. It needs to serve a purpose if it is present, that is for sure.
Thanks for the thoughts.
Yeah, I've always found the beeps to be helpful. Not typewriter text like in Deja Vu, but some nicer noises for sure. I'm currently re-playing Radiant Historia and enjoying the way that they make the narrative come alive. Different speeds, pitches, etc.
Shining Force does this as well. Really helps gives the characters "voices".
Edit: My only thoughts on dialogue windows is having them able to display on either the top or bottom of the screen as necessary not to cover over the characters speaking.