Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Sweet... this game is certainly on my To Do List.
Does the gameplay become a bit less clunky as you get used to it and move along? I find some NES games have a certain learning curve/feeling out period for the controls.
Some examples I can think of are Bionic Comando and Bayou Billy. Bionic Commando took me some time to "get used to" or get a handle on the controls. After I got used to swinging instead of jumping and how to handle my dude it became much easier and fun to play. Bayou Billy just has stiff controls but there is a certain learning curve, I believe, to controlling your bayou buddy.
I ask this because I remember playing Zelda 2 and thinking the controls ere pretty clunky and tough to deal with....
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Sweet... this game is certainly on my To Do List.
Does the gameplay become a bit less clunky as you get used to it and move along? I find some NES games have a certain learning curve/feeling out period for the controls.
Some examples I can think of are Bionic Comando and Bayou Billy. Bionic Commando took me some time to "get used to" or get a handle on the controls. After I got used to swinging instead of jumping and how to handle my dude it became much easier and fun to play. Bayou Billy just has stiff controls but there is a certain learning curve, I believe, to controlling your bayou buddy.
I ask this because I remember playing Zelda 2 and thinking the controls ere pretty clunky and tough to deal with....
Yes, the controls and combat both improve vastly when you level up. Not only do you learn new spells which enable new methods of combat, but you naturally get better at taking out annoying enemies quicker. The game pretty much begins optimizing itself after level 6 or 7 or so.
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Sweet... this game is certainly on my To Do List.
Does the gameplay become a bit less clunky as you get used to it and move along? I find some NES games have a certain learning curve/feeling out period for the controls.
Some examples I can think of are Bionic Comando and Bayou Billy. Bionic Commando took me some time to "get used to" or get a handle on the controls. After I got used to swinging instead of jumping and how to handle my dude it became much easier and fun to play. Bayou Billy just has stiff controls but there is a certain learning curve, I believe, to controlling your bayou buddy.
I ask this because I remember playing Zelda 2 and thinking the controls ere pretty clunky and tough to deal with....
Yes, the controls and combat both improve vastly when you level up. Not only do you learn new spells which enable new methods of combat, but you naturally get better at taking out annoying enemies quicker. The game pretty much begins optimizing itself after level 6 or 7 or so.
Nice. Ohh dang, level 6-7?? Haha, no wonder I wasn't stoked after the first fwe screens.
You're all probably sick of me bumping this thread and talking to myself about my current Zelda II playthough...
...But I'm absolutely destroying this game dudes, with like, no help from a guide or anything. I'm hoping the last Palace lives up to the hype, because I've beaten 4 Palaces, plugged in 0 crystals, and I already feel OP as hell lol.
I can't remember if the 5th starts to pick up or if it's after you cross the swamp demon space but yea, there will be another bump of difficulty soon.
It's picking up a bit heading toward the 5th Palace; mostly the enemies and their patterns. I'll be stoked to finish this one (finally), that's for sure.
5th Palace complete! I even beat the boss on my last life, first try! Only afterwards did I read about him being considered one of the hardest bosses in the game.
All I did was equip Shield and Jump, and then hit him and time my jumps so I'd clear his mace swings. It literally only took me about one minute, and he was toast.
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
5th Palace complete! I even beat the boss on my last life, first try! Only afterwards did I read about him being considered one of the hardest bosses in the game.
All I did was equip Shield and Jump, and then hit him and time my jumps so I'd clear his mace swings. It literally only took me about one minute, and he was toast.
Onward to the 6th Palace!
As a kid I got stuck on him. I was bouncing around doing downword stabs if memory serves right, not doing any damage, but I knew if I left, he'd kill me before I got a shot off on him. Did not like that guy
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
My sentiments exactly. I remember getting Zelda II at FuncoLand back in like 1997, and being excited that there was another NES Zelda title that I somehow never knew about...
...Then I popped it in, and boy was it different lol. The EXP sytem threw me off big time, as I'd never played an RPG at that point in my life yet.
Years later, it's become a cart that's constantly in my NES. I've never formerly beaten it until this run. On my way to Palace 6 now.
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
What's worse is that a few enemies are culprits of both 2 and 3.
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
What's worse is that a few enemies are culprits of both 2 and 3.
...Like the little, useless, armadillo-looking bastards in the temples. They just hop along, distrupting your patterns, offering no EXP and taking magic/EXP with them when they bump you.
My least favorite enemy so far (by far) are the laser-shooting jumping bug things. Even though you can use fire and kill them in 1-2 hits, their erratic jumping makes them a pain in the ass no matter what.
Inside "The Hidden Palace" (Palace 6) now, after backtracking and making sure I have all the magic containers (or else the old woman won't reveal the final one), as well as the required spells. This one's looking long and confusing already!
I have to say, I'm so glad that I stumbled across this thread and much of the advice herein before powering up Zelda II again.
Also, I'm so glad that I powered up Zelda II again!
Personally, I feel that the initial barrier of leveling up to a good Attack Power is truly the only thing holding this game back from being more appreciated and enjoyed. That initial ~2 hour grind to level up is frustrating and tedious as all get-out but once it is out of the way...holy sh*t, the game becomes so much more enjoyable and a game that feels adventurous and rewarding.
Thus, if that game has a failure, I'd say that it's the way it first opens its doors. The beginning of the game should serve to ease the player into the experience and prepare them for bigger and bigger challenges as they progress. Zelda II starts off by making you feel under-powered and forcing you to make a tedious grind to offset that feeling. It would be like if World 8 in Super Mario Bros. was the first one you had to play before moving on to World 1, or if you had to beat Dr. Wily's castle in Mega Man before moving on to the other robot masters.
That said, the experience has really opened my eyes to this game even more. I just finished the 4th Palace last night without much trouble and ready to move on.
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
Dang man. Really makes me wish I had some time right now to give this one a go. Didn't have it as a kid and only played it a couple of times back then. Firing it up and just trying to play it through like you play the original as an adult just ended pretty quickly in frustration
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER.
Not 100% true, once you get to the last palace, you actually restart there when you continue. Kind of odd, but nice.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER.
Not 100% true, once you get to the last palace, you actually restart there when you continue. Kind of odd, but nice.
Technically correct....
...But good luck getting to that point without putting your head through some drywall
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
This! So much this! Honestly, though it was a minor annoyance through most of the game in general, where it suddenly transformed into a cripplingly frustrating problem was in that final run to reach the Great Palace. It's bad enough that that place is an endurance test of the worst kind...but you have to navigate the entire world map to get back there when you die. I finally reached my limit with that place after the second Game Over and then discovered the single best tactic to get through it...just use the Fairy spell and fly through everything. Yeah, you'll take a few hits flying through the lizard-men but your ultimate goal is just to survive long enough to reach the Great Palace anyway, so that you can restart from there when you die.
On that note, I did it! I beat the game last night! The Great Palace was a bit of a pain but was actually considerably less annoying than the caves leading up to it. I got to the Thunderbird and killed it but with zero lives, magic and health remaining, so a lucky hit from Shadow Link was all it took to do me in. So I made it through the Palace again and was pleased to discover that you do not have to defeat Thunderbird a second time, so I went into the Shadow Link fight with plenty of life and magic to spare. He was actually ridiculously easy using the "corner tactic".
I'm so glad to have finally gotten through this game and my reflections upon it are very positive. With the exception of a few moments in the 6th Palace and that ludicrous beating in the caves before the Great Palace, the rest of the game was actually a lot of fun.
Now I'm ready to move on to Zelda 3 (aka: A Link to the Past) and I'm stoked about that. Not only my favorite game in the series but probably one of my favorite games ever on any platform.
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
What do you expect after a Game Over?
Ha! No kidding. You have plenty of lives in the game.
It's not like any of the other games in the series where you only get to die once.
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
What do you expect after a Game Over?
Ha! No kidding. You have plenty of lives in the game.
It's not like any of the other games in the series where you only get to die once.
I don't "expect" anything. It was an observation/comment on a portion of what makes Zelda II a challenge.
It's not much like any of the other Zelda games at all, period. Other than the title itself, the game engine is completely different from every other Zelda game that exists.
The majority of other Zelda titles give you "one shot"...but start you off at the entrance of whatever temple/dungeon you're in. Granted grinding is the purpose of Zelda II, it's still tedious at times - especially when you're 3/4 of the way through a Palace, game over, lose all EXP (it's a bitch once you're aiming for 6000+ EXP per game), and have to start at North Castle.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
This! So much this! Honestly, though it was a minor annoyance through most of the game in general, where it suddenly transformed into a cripplingly frustrating problem was in that final run to reach the Great Palace. It's bad enough that that place is an endurance test of the worst kind...but you have to navigate the entire world map to get back there when you die. I finally reached my limit with that place after the second Game Over and then discovered the single best tactic to get through it...just use the Fairy spell and fly through everything. Yeah, you'll take a few hits flying through the lizard-men but your ultimate goal is just to survive long enough to reach the Great Palace anyway, so that you can restart from there when you die.
On that note, I did it! I beat the game last night! The Great Palace was a bit of a pain but was actually considerably less annoying than the caves leading up to it. I got to the Thunderbird and killed it but with zero lives, magic and health remaining, so a lucky hit from Shadow Link was all it took to do me in. So I made it through the Palace again and was pleased to discover that you do not have to defeat Thunderbird a second time, so I went into the Shadow Link fight with plenty of life and magic to spare. He was actually ridiculously easy using the "corner tactic".
I'm so glad to have finally gotten through this game and my reflections upon it are very positive. With the exception of a few moments in the 6th Palace and that ludicrous beating in the caves before the Great Palace, the rest of the game was actually a lot of fun.
Now I'm ready to move on to Zelda 3 (aka: A Link to the Past) and I'm stoked about that. Not only my favorite game in the series but probably one of my favorite games ever on any platform.
Holy shit, congrats dude! I'm hoping to finish the 6th Palace today.
Imported from the "Hardest NES Games and WHY" thread because I fucking love talking and everything about Zelda 2.
Originally posted by: NostalgicMachine
Originally posted by: gunpei
Maybe this is just from the stance of an experienced player but I don't think in Zelda 2 "leveling-up is expected of you in the early game". Sure, you will stumble around in the beginning. And probably avoid all the caves until you run out of options. But I think it gives you a lot more than the first game, with safe paths, towns to recover health and get the shield spell, and the lone square of forest that contains a 50pt bag giving the first level up for free. But I don't remember ever needing to specifically grind until much later.
I understand what you're saying here, but I have to respectfully disagree, sir!
Leveling up is kind of the entire point of the gameplay mechanic in Zelda II. If you don't level up, you won't make it very far. While it's debatable that the game "expects" grinding from the get go, it's without question that you're required to level up ASAP to get far at all. For me, how each of us personally feel about leveling is irrelevent, because it's a required portion of the game.
Waiting until the end to grind absolutely sucks because it takes forever, hence why most of us opt to leave the Palace Crystals alone until the end to max out. Perhaps the difference in our opinions/experience is due to the fact that you may just use the Crystals immediately?
In the original LoZ, there are fairy locations that are stable and there every time you turn the game on. You can plan paths through Hyrule so you can get them when needed, and typically your heart meter is pretty resiliant less than halfway through the game. In Zelda II, fairy locations appear randomly on the board, with secure fairy locations being sparse. Yes, they're there, but they're a pain to get to in most cases.
In most instances, you get to a fairy, refill your meter, then take a ton of damage anyway on your way to wherever it is you're going next.
In Zelda II, even with max health and magic, you're using resources like crazy just to make it to places. The patterns of some enemeis (fence-hiding bastards on the way to Palace 6) will absolutely rape your health and magic if you don't know how to navigate those asinine fireball patterns. In the first LoZ, you really only had to be careful around Darknuts and Lionells.
In LoZ, you just need a full heart meter and you're pretty set. In Zelda II, your life meter can be full, even on the highest level attainable, and you're still going to get your ass kicked.
On leveling, I get what you're saying. Aside from the crystals, I typically level naturally through combat and rarely avoid encounters. I guess this does lead me to need dedicated grinding for a couple of levels towards the end. But I enjoy it. At levels 6 or 7, I am powerful and I can walk all over the land kicking monster ass! I feel like an adventurer! I feel like the dude in a kung fu movie during the climactic training sequence, when he is gearing up for final battle with the big bad guy! To me that's awesome. I get to spend more time with the game before heading to the end and finishing it. Sometimes I don't even stop when I'm all maxed out because I am having too much fun. Two different approaches, and that's all good.
In Zelda 2, there are definitely stable locations to replenish health, and magic. In most cases, you do not even have to plan a path, you can just follow the yellow dirt road that's already there. Follow the yellow dirt road!
And then, you said something key. I do know how to navigate those asinine fireball patterns. It took time to learn, don't get me wrong.
They're not even patterns and I think this is something cool. Unlike many parts of games that get easier with memorization instead of reaction (as arch_8ngel detailed in the Hardest NES Games thread) there is nothing to memorize here. You just use jump (and maybe shield) spell and you dodge.
Maybe you're still going to get your ass kicked. I'm not.
I think you guys are muddying the issue when the notion of saving the crystals for later comes up.
If you KNOW to save the crystals for later, then you COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND how leveling works in the game, and how to optimize it.
At that point, it can't be considered "hard" due to not understanding you need to level, at all.
The leveling (or not realizing leveling is crucial) can ONLY apply to new players of the game that might not understand the mechanics (assuming they didn't read the instructions that pretty clearly lay out the importance)
The NEW player is going to grab the crystal and get an auto-level. They will also naturally level up a few times just from palace-based combat.
By the time they hit the first plateau of Death Mountain, they will understand that leveling is useful and that it's important to be able to hit harder.
The NEW player is going to grab the crystal and get an auto-level. They will also naturally level up a few times just from palace-based combat.
Yes. It's exactly like Super Mario Bros that way. The game demonstrates its workings in ways that might not be obvious from the first second to the first time player, but which ultimately cannot be avoided if the player continues. Much more interesting, and much more skilled programming IMO, than an NPC script telling you how to press buttons and use menus. I find that shit absolutely infuriating.
Comments
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
UPDATE!
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Sweet... this game is certainly on my To Do List.
Does the gameplay become a bit less clunky as you get used to it and move along? I find some NES games have a certain learning curve/feeling out period for the controls.
Some examples I can think of are Bionic Comando and Bayou Billy. Bionic Commando took me some time to "get used to" or get a handle on the controls. After I got used to swinging instead of jumping and how to handle my dude it became much easier and fun to play. Bayou Billy just has stiff controls but there is a certain learning curve, I believe, to controlling your bayou buddy.
I ask this because I remember playing Zelda 2 and thinking the controls ere pretty clunky and tough to deal with....
UPDATE!
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Sweet... this game is certainly on my To Do List.
Does the gameplay become a bit less clunky as you get used to it and move along? I find some NES games have a certain learning curve/feeling out period for the controls.
Some examples I can think of are Bionic Comando and Bayou Billy. Bionic Commando took me some time to "get used to" or get a handle on the controls. After I got used to swinging instead of jumping and how to handle my dude it became much easier and fun to play. Bayou Billy just has stiff controls but there is a certain learning curve, I believe, to controlling your bayou buddy.
I ask this because I remember playing Zelda 2 and thinking the controls ere pretty clunky and tough to deal with....
Yes, the controls and combat both improve vastly when you level up. Not only do you learn new spells which enable new methods of combat, but you naturally get better at taking out annoying enemies quicker. The game pretty much begins optimizing itself after level 6 or 7 or so.
UPDATE!
Took a break yesterday, and back at it today. Cruising right along and in the third Palace now. This game is like, actually playable now. Who'd of thought?
Sweet... this game is certainly on my To Do List.
Does the gameplay become a bit less clunky as you get used to it and move along? I find some NES games have a certain learning curve/feeling out period for the controls.
Some examples I can think of are Bionic Comando and Bayou Billy. Bionic Commando took me some time to "get used to" or get a handle on the controls. After I got used to swinging instead of jumping and how to handle my dude it became much easier and fun to play. Bayou Billy just has stiff controls but there is a certain learning curve, I believe, to controlling your bayou buddy.
I ask this because I remember playing Zelda 2 and thinking the controls ere pretty clunky and tough to deal with....
Yes, the controls and combat both improve vastly when you level up. Not only do you learn new spells which enable new methods of combat, but you naturally get better at taking out annoying enemies quicker. The game pretty much begins optimizing itself after level 6 or 7 or so.
Nice. Ohh dang, level 6-7?? Haha, no wonder I wasn't stoked after the first fwe screens.
Anyways, I'll give it another shot.
Third Palace now!
You're all probably sick of me bumping this thread and talking to myself about my current Zelda II playthough...
...But I'm absolutely destroying this game dudes, with like, no help from a guide or anything. I'm hoping the last Palace lives up to the hype, because I've beaten 4 Palaces, plugged in 0 crystals, and I already feel OP as hell lol.
Onward to the 5th Palace!
I can't remember if the 5th starts to pick up or if it's after you cross the swamp demon space but yea, there will be another bump of difficulty soon.
It's picking up a bit heading toward the 5th Palace; mostly the enemies and their patterns. I'll be stoked to finish this one (finally), that's for sure.
All I did was equip Shield and Jump, and then hit him and time my jumps so I'd clear his mace swings. It literally only took me about one minute, and he was toast.
Onward to the 6th Palace!
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
5th Palace complete! I even beat the boss on my last life, first try! Only afterwards did I read about him being considered one of the hardest bosses in the game.
All I did was equip Shield and Jump, and then hit him and time my jumps so I'd clear his mace swings. It literally only took me about one minute, and he was toast.
Onward to the 6th Palace!
As a kid I got stuck on him. I was bouncing around doing downword stabs if memory serves right, not doing any damage, but I knew if I left, he'd kill me before I got a shot off on him. Did not like that guy
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
My sentiments exactly. I remember getting Zelda II at FuncoLand back in like 1997, and being excited that there was another NES Zelda title that I somehow never knew about...
...Then I popped it in, and boy was it different lol. The EXP sytem threw me off big time, as I'd never played an RPG at that point in my life yet.
Years later, it's become a cart that's constantly in my NES. I've never formerly beaten it until this run. On my way to Palace 6 now.
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
What's worse is that a few enemies are culprits of both 2 and 3.
So, I powered up this game last night for the first time in probably 20 years. I was immediately reminded of how much I enjoyed the music, graphics and general game play of this one.
However, I've also come to understand why I was never able to get very far in my youth...and that's due to the "Experience" system. Seeing it now with a more critical eye really helps to know how the game needs to be played.
I don't think I ever realized the following elements that make this game so challenging to the ignorant player:
1) You lose all unspent experience points when you reach "Game Over" or "Save" your game. Yes, every last one.
2) Some enemies are worth zero experience and, thus, only exist to frustrate you and waste your time.
3) Worse yet, some enemies will drain your experience when they hit you.
So, the lesson is a) don't get hit, b) don't die and c) make sure to spend your XP before you go into risky places.
Now that I understand the workings of the experience system better (as a kid, I think all this stuff flew right over my head), this game becomes much more manageable. It still has some frustrating/challenging moments but I'm finding myself enjoying it more than ever and I think it is definitely one of the better games in the franchise.
What's worse is that a few enemies are culprits of both 2 and 3.
...Like the little, useless, armadillo-looking bastards in the temples. They just hop along, distrupting your patterns, offering no EXP and taking magic/EXP with them when they bump you.
My least favorite enemy so far (by far) are the laser-shooting jumping bug things. Even though you can use fire and kill them in 1-2 hits, their erratic jumping makes them a pain in the ass no matter what.
Inside "The Hidden Palace" (Palace 6) now, after backtracking and making sure I have all the magic containers (or else the old woman won't reveal the final one), as well as the required spells. This one's looking long and confusing already!
Also, I'm so glad that I powered up Zelda II again!
Personally, I feel that the initial barrier of leveling up to a good Attack Power is truly the only thing holding this game back from being more appreciated and enjoyed. That initial ~2 hour grind to level up is frustrating and tedious as all get-out but once it is out of the way...holy sh*t, the game becomes so much more enjoyable and a game that feels adventurous and rewarding.
Thus, if that game has a failure, I'd say that it's the way it first opens its doors. The beginning of the game should serve to ease the player into the experience and prepare them for bigger and bigger challenges as they progress. Zelda II starts off by making you feel under-powered and forcing you to make a tedious grind to offset that feeling. It would be like if World 8 in Super Mario Bros. was the first one you had to play before moving on to World 1, or if you had to beat Dr. Wily's castle in Mega Man before moving on to the other robot masters.
That said, the experience has really opened my eyes to this game even more. I just finished the 4th Palace last night without much trouble and ready to move on.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER.
Not 100% true, once you get to the last palace, you actually restart there when you continue. Kind of odd, but nice.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER.
Not 100% true, once you get to the last palace, you actually restart there when you continue. Kind of odd, but nice.
Technically correct....
...But good luck getting to that point without putting your head through some drywall
Aiming to finish Palace 6 today.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
This! So much this! Honestly, though it was a minor annoyance through most of the game in general, where it suddenly transformed into a cripplingly frustrating problem was in that final run to reach the Great Palace. It's bad enough that that place is an endurance test of the worst kind...but you have to navigate the entire world map to get back there when you die. I finally reached my limit with that place after the second Game Over and then discovered the single best tactic to get through it...just use the Fairy spell and fly through everything. Yeah, you'll take a few hits flying through the lizard-men but your ultimate goal is just to survive long enough to reach the Great Palace anyway, so that you can restart from there when you die.
On that note, I did it! I beat the game last night! The Great Palace was a bit of a pain but was actually considerably less annoying than the caves leading up to it. I got to the Thunderbird and killed it but with zero lives, magic and health remaining, so a lucky hit from Shadow Link was all it took to do me in. So I made it through the Palace again and was pleased to discover that you do not have to defeat Thunderbird a second time, so I went into the Shadow Link fight with plenty of life and magic to spare. He was actually ridiculously easy using the "corner tactic".
I'm so glad to have finally gotten through this game and my reflections upon it are very positive. With the exception of a few moments in the 6th Palace and that ludicrous beating in the caves before the Great Palace, the rest of the game was actually a lot of fun.
Now I'm ready to move on to Zelda 3 (aka: A Link to the Past) and I'm stoked about that. Not only my favorite game in the series but probably one of my favorite games ever on any platform.
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
What do you expect after a Game Over?
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
What do you expect after a Game Over?
Ha! No kidding. You have plenty of lives in the game.
It's not like any of the other games in the series where you only get to die once.
^Welcome to the thread, sir! I agree with everything you've just said.
I'm on the 6th Palace now, and I can tell you, there are at least 3 additional times in the game where you have to grind for a good 30 minutes to level up. This is my least favorite part about the game. It mimics real life way, way too much. "You mean I have to do a tedious, repeated task just to advance?"
You hit plateaus like crazy after the 5th Palace.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
What do you expect after a Game Over?
Ha! No kidding. You have plenty of lives in the game.
It's not like any of the other games in the series where you only get to die once.
I don't "expect" anything. It was an observation/comment on a portion of what makes Zelda II a challenge.
It's not much like any of the other Zelda games at all, period. Other than the title itself, the game engine is completely different from every other Zelda game that exists.
The majority of other Zelda titles give you "one shot"...but start you off at the entrance of whatever temple/dungeon you're in. Granted grinding is the purpose of Zelda II, it's still tedious at times - especially when you're 3/4 of the way through a Palace, game over, lose all EXP (it's a bitch once you're aiming for 6000+ EXP per game), and have to start at North Castle.
One of THE biggest downfalls, and one of the cheapest parts of the entire fucking game (as in "You fucking programmers and your non-creative ways of increasing difficulty without adding additional value to the game") is how you ALWAYS START FROM NORTH CASTLE WHEN YOU GAME OVER. This is a HUGE deterrent to flow and momentum. "Balls deep in that 6th Palace? Too bad! Now you have to walk back across Hyrule to re-do it...try not to lose any lives on the way LOL!"
It's going to make completing this fucker all the sweeter, lol.
This! So much this! Honestly, though it was a minor annoyance through most of the game in general, where it suddenly transformed into a cripplingly frustrating problem was in that final run to reach the Great Palace. It's bad enough that that place is an endurance test of the worst kind...but you have to navigate the entire world map to get back there when you die. I finally reached my limit with that place after the second Game Over and then discovered the single best tactic to get through it...just use the Fairy spell and fly through everything. Yeah, you'll take a few hits flying through the lizard-men but your ultimate goal is just to survive long enough to reach the Great Palace anyway, so that you can restart from there when you die.
On that note, I did it! I beat the game last night! The Great Palace was a bit of a pain but was actually considerably less annoying than the caves leading up to it. I got to the Thunderbird and killed it but with zero lives, magic and health remaining, so a lucky hit from Shadow Link was all it took to do me in. So I made it through the Palace again and was pleased to discover that you do not have to defeat Thunderbird a second time, so I went into the Shadow Link fight with plenty of life and magic to spare. He was actually ridiculously easy using the "corner tactic".
I'm so glad to have finally gotten through this game and my reflections upon it are very positive. With the exception of a few moments in the 6th Palace and that ludicrous beating in the caves before the Great Palace, the rest of the game was actually a lot of fun.
Now I'm ready to move on to Zelda 3 (aka: A Link to the Past) and I'm stoked about that. Not only my favorite game in the series but probably one of my favorite games ever on any platform.
Holy shit, congrats dude! I'm hoping to finish the 6th Palace today.
Maybe this is just from the stance of an experienced player but I don't think in Zelda 2 "leveling-up is expected of you in the early game". Sure, you will stumble around in the beginning. And probably avoid all the caves until you run out of options. But I think it gives you a lot more than the first game, with safe paths, towns to recover health and get the shield spell, and the lone square of forest that contains a 50pt bag giving the first level up for free. But I don't remember ever needing to specifically grind until much later.
I understand what you're saying here, but I have to respectfully disagree, sir!
Leveling up is kind of the entire point of the gameplay mechanic in Zelda II. If you don't level up, you won't make it very far. While it's debatable that the game "expects" grinding from the get go, it's without question that you're required to level up ASAP to get far at all. For me, how each of us personally feel about leveling is irrelevent, because it's a required portion of the game.
Waiting until the end to grind absolutely sucks because it takes forever, hence why most of us opt to leave the Palace Crystals alone until the end to max out. Perhaps the difference in our opinions/experience is due to the fact that you may just use the Crystals immediately?
In the original LoZ, there are fairy locations that are stable and there every time you turn the game on. You can plan paths through Hyrule so you can get them when needed, and typically your heart meter is pretty resiliant less than halfway through the game. In Zelda II, fairy locations appear randomly on the board, with secure fairy locations being sparse. Yes, they're there, but they're a pain to get to in most cases.
In most instances, you get to a fairy, refill your meter, then take a ton of damage anyway on your way to wherever it is you're going next.
In Zelda II, even with max health and magic, you're using resources like crazy just to make it to places. The patterns of some enemeis (fence-hiding bastards on the way to Palace 6) will absolutely rape your health and magic if you don't know how to navigate those asinine fireball patterns. In the first LoZ, you really only had to be careful around Darknuts and Lionells.
In LoZ, you just need a full heart meter and you're pretty set. In Zelda II, your life meter can be full, even on the highest level attainable, and you're still going to get your ass kicked.
On leveling, I get what you're saying. Aside from the crystals, I typically level naturally through combat and rarely avoid encounters. I guess this does lead me to need dedicated grinding for a couple of levels towards the end. But I enjoy it. At levels 6 or 7, I am powerful and I can walk all over the land kicking monster ass! I feel like an adventurer! I feel like the dude in a kung fu movie during the climactic training sequence, when he is gearing up for final battle with the big bad guy! To me that's awesome. I get to spend more time with the game before heading to the end and finishing it. Sometimes I don't even stop when I'm all maxed out because I am having too much fun. Two different approaches, and that's all good.
In Zelda 2, there are definitely stable locations to replenish health, and magic. In most cases, you do not even have to plan a path, you can just follow the yellow dirt road that's already there. Follow the yellow dirt road!
And then, you said something key. I do know how to navigate those asinine fireball patterns. It took time to learn, don't get me wrong.
They're not even patterns and I think this is something cool. Unlike many parts of games that get easier with memorization instead of reaction (as arch_8ngel detailed in the Hardest NES Games thread) there is nothing to memorize here. You just use jump (and maybe shield) spell and you dodge.
Maybe you're still going to get your ass kicked. I'm not.
If you KNOW to save the crystals for later, then you COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND how leveling works in the game, and how to optimize it.
At that point, it can't be considered "hard" due to not understanding you need to level, at all.
The leveling (or not realizing leveling is crucial) can ONLY apply to new players of the game that might not understand the mechanics (assuming they didn't read the instructions that pretty clearly lay out the importance)
The NEW player is going to grab the crystal and get an auto-level. They will also naturally level up a few times just from palace-based combat.
By the time they hit the first plateau of Death Mountain, they will understand that leveling is useful and that it's important to be able to hit harder.
The NEW player is going to grab the crystal and get an auto-level. They will also naturally level up a few times just from palace-based combat.
Yes. It's exactly like Super Mario Bros that way. The game demonstrates its workings in ways that might not be obvious from the first second to the first time player, but which ultimately cannot be avoided if the player continues. Much more interesting, and much more skilled programming IMO, than an NPC script telling you how to press buttons and use menus. I find that shit absolutely infuriating.