Best/cheapest methods to get good looking image on a flat screen
I just recently upgraded to from a CRT to a flat screen. It's got VGA, Component and HDMI.
My main question is what are some good methods in getting accurate, good looking images to play your retro games on?
Example, I recently try in using this, it's an av/s-video to hdmi converter.
It's not really good, you actually get worst image with s-video than connected to the av spot and of course, you can notice a half a second delay on controls being pressed.
I'm now considering getting this IF the results would be any different.
What do you use for your flat screen tv? I just refuse to believe that a XRGB-mini is the only way to enjoy retro games like on an CRT, considering that little thing cost $400...
My main question is what are some good methods in getting accurate, good looking images to play your retro games on?
Example, I recently try in using this, it's an av/s-video to hdmi converter.
It's not really good, you actually get worst image with s-video than connected to the av spot and of course, you can notice a half a second delay on controls being pressed.
I'm now considering getting this IF the results would be any different.
What do you use for your flat screen tv? I just refuse to believe that a XRGB-mini is the only way to enjoy retro games like on an CRT, considering that little thing cost $400...
Comments
AVS: Change the way you play! ©
I have used nes, snes, genesis, saturn, and turbografx on the xrgb mini
best all around solution: XRGB Mini (aka Framemeister)
best NES solution will be the AVS from RetroUSB/Bunnyboy of course. Second best is AV Famicom RGB/S-video modded
A $30 crt is better than $1000 flat screen + $400 frameister.
Agreed. At least for older games, I don't want to use anything except a CRT. No lag.
Originally posted by: pegboy
A $30 crt is better than $1000 flat screen + $400 frameister.
QFT
Newer isn't always better.
Me, I know how you feel, since my living situation right now prevents me from being able to devote enough space to any CRT worth a shit. I myself bought an iScan VP30; it's not quite a Framemeister but it's much better than those Amazon guys and I only paid about $100 for it. It's got a lot of options, works really well for interlaced 3D systems like the N64, and the 2D support isn't bad either (and muuuuuuuch better than just plugging straight into an HDTV with a NES or whatever).
I did a video review of the VP30 here if you're at all inclined: https://videotron2000.wordpress.com/2016/05/19/new-adventures-in-hi-def-iscan-vp30-video-upscaler-review/
A $30 crt is better than $1000 flat screen + $400 frameister.
I strongly disagree. RGB looks infinitely better than a CRT. Maybe I got lucky, but have virtually zero lag using the Framemeister on my RCA 42", which happens to be a cheap HDTV.
I'm now considering getting this IF the results would be any different.
What do you use for your flat screen tv? I just refuse to believe that a XRGB-mini is the only way to enjoy retro games like on an CRT, considering that little thing cost $400...
That cable won't work, it's meant for devices that use a single DE15 connector for audio/composite/s-video output.
There are other video processors than the Framemeister, I'd recommend taking a look at Fudoh's review page: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/
Since your HDTV has VGA input, you might want to consider looking into older video processors that can be had for cheap on eBay. The cheapest, decent video processor I can recommend is the iScan Plus if you can get it under $30. It obviously won't make the picture look as good as the Framemeister, but it will properly recognize and convert 240p to 480p and you can attach a mini-SLG/SLG3000 to the VGA output for scanlines.
A $30 crt is better than $1000 flat screen + $400 frameister.
A majority of the time, people that say this have not tried RGB + frameister.
I personally would never go back to a CRT.
A $30 crt is better than $1000 flat screen + $400 frameister.
A majority of the time, people that say this have not tried RGB + frameister.
I personally would never go back to a CRT.
I find myself going from RGB + frameister to my CRT with s-video all the time. Just depends on what I am playing and I do think they both look great. The crt makes me feel like I am playing in the 90s. That being said the XRGB mini is amazing and blows away the cheap hdmi scaler. I like having the option of both and I been seriously considering a PVM but the wife would probably not be happy lol.
I absolutely agree CRT is the way to go...but finding a good quality one with S-video/composite hookups can be a bit tricky. Then again, we've had records make a comeback...who's to say CRT's won't as well?
Probably any state/country that has laws related to energy efficiency ratings like EnergyStar...
Originally posted by: ginoscope
Originally posted by: scottmog
Originally posted by: pegboy
A $30 crt is better than $1000 flat screen + $400 frameister.
A majority of the time, people that say this have not tried RGB + frameister.
I personally would never go back to a CRT.
I find myself going from RGB + frameister to my CRT with s-video all the time. Just depends on what I am playing and I do think they both look great. The crt makes me feel like I am playing in the 90s. That being said the XRGB mini is amazing and blows away the cheap hdmi scaler. I like having the option of both and I been seriously considering a PVM but the wife would probably not be happy lol.
Of course it's all subjective, but I prefer a CRT to a framemeister. RGB on a PVM is the best though. It's literally a perfect picture.
Then again, we've had records make a comeback...who's to say CRT's won't as well?
I'm to say.
Records never really went away, and they're fairly cheap for boutique companies to keep producing them.
The only people that care about CRTs are retro gamers. CRTs require a major manufacturer who can 1) produce them in quantity and 2) handle the dangerous chemicals like mercury inside them. You're not going to get a boutique manufacturer capable of making them, nor are the big boys ever going back to making them.
Wow I want an AVS. First time reading about one. They do not seem to be available on the Retro USB web page.
They're not ready to ship out yet. End of June is the tentative date for sale, but that's not set in stone (dependent upon the Chinese manufacturer.)
On a normal 480i image, you have 30 frames per second. Each frame is two fields, like this
11111111111 11111111111 33333333333 33333333333
--------------- 22222222222 22222222222 44444444444
11111111111 11111111111 33333333333 33333333333
--------------- 22222222222 22222222222 44444444444
11111111111 11111111111 33333333333 33333333333
--------------- 22222222222 22222222222 44444444444
When the image is drawn, it shows field 1 on lines 0, 2, 4, 6 ect. On the second half of the frame, it sets the field offset by one, so that it draws lines 1, 3, 5. In so called 240p, it never changes the offset field like it's supposed to, so you get this:
11111111111 22222222222 3333333333 44444444444
--------------- --------------- --------------- ---------------
11111111111 22222222222 3333333333 44444444444
--------------- --------------- --------------- ---------------
11111111111 22222222222 3333333333 44444444444
--------------- --------------- --------------- ---------------
Since LCDs are digital (As are a few CRTs!), they have logic built into them to figure out how to handle this. And different TVs process them different ways. There is no technical reason why they can't have scan lines. One of the most common ways is to ignore the offset setting, so it forces the bottom picture to look like the top one. Your non-standard "240p" image becomes standard 480i, because the TV "fixes" it. Some special effects, like if you're hit, will blink the sprite on/ff every frame. With this offset it really messes with this effect, where every other scan line just vanishes, while the remaining ones stay on steady, giving you a stripped effect when hit. Other TVs, however, do even stranger, more convoluted shit which makes this even worse.
Another issue is scaling. 240p, when stretched to 1080, is a 4.5x stretch. So every 8 pixels, you repeat a line, which can have some ugly effects. It's best to scale it 4x and have borders on all sides, but the extra pixel lines generally happen on tile borders, so at least it's not as ugly as it could be, by default. If your panel is a native ???x1200 it looks soooo much better, but 1200 high panels are rare. Most 4K TVs using 2160 panels which is a nice even 9x of 240p, so this helps with a nice even picture.
The biggest issue is many TVs use all sorts of dithering for their scaling, which looks much better with live action, and even with SOME games, but the bulk of 240p is just creates strange artifacts. Tie this with the flicker issues when you turn off a sprite every other frame, and you get some really ugly and weird issues.
I'm reeeaally putting some thought into getting an avs. The cheapest solution I can think of to get retro games looking good on an HDTV is an emulation machine (raspberry pi, retron 5 etc)
Not only does the AVS give you HDMI and 720p, you get:
Built in Four Score
Built in Game Genie
Built in Famicom adapter
So if you subtract the cost of those separately, it puts the HDMI stuff in perspective.
I'm reeeaally putting some thought into getting an avs. The cheapest solution I can think of to get retro games looking good on an HDTV is an emulation machine (raspberry pi, retron 5 etc)
Not only does the AVS give you HDMI and 720p, you get:
Built in Four Score
Built in Game Genie
Built in Famicom adapter
So if you subtract the cost of those separately, it puts the HDMI stuff in perspective.
I haven't looked much into it yet, but I'm wondering if there'll still be lag because of the HDTV. That would be a deal breaker for me. Also I'm not even sure what the cost will be to get one I'm sure the cost will be reasonable for what you get though
I see a lot of people hyping up the AVS, but it's not even out yet is it? As someone that is out of the loop on this, what am I missing?
Most of us have been anticipating it for YEARS.
A few on the site have been lucky enough to help test the system and the scoreboard features.
What you're missing: turnkey HDMI NES, using all new hardware, with added features like "scoreboard"
It's FPGA based, and Bunnyboy knows his stuff, unlike the makers of every shitty clone system in the last 30 years, so hopes are high with regard to quality and compatibility.
I see a lot of people hyping up the AVS, but it's not even out yet is it? As someone that is out of the loop on this, what am I missing?
Most of us have been anticipating it for YEARS.
A few on the site have been lucky enough to help test the system and the scoreboard features.
What you're missing: turnkey HDMI NES, using all new hardware, with added features like "scoreboard"
It's FPGA based, and Bunnyboy knows his stuff, unlike the makers of every shitty clone system in the last 30 years, so hopes are high with regard to quality and compatibility.
Got it, thanks! I was trying to figure out how this differentiated itself from the "HD" NES systems that have been flooding the market lately. The estimated price (from what I read in an article dated last month) certainly seems to be worth it.
Is there any footage out there captured from an AVS?
Got it, thanks! I was trying to figure out how this differentiated itself from the "HD" NES systems that have been flooding the market lately. The estimated price (from what I read in an article dated last month) certainly seems to be worth it.
Is there any footage out there captured from an AVS?
Some are on Bunnyboy's channel.
And Mog's channel.
Go to the "everything else" forum and look for the thread "I have a dream..." Most of the AVS stuff is later in the thread. More than you would ever care to know. (And whatever you do, don't ask for the color pallete numbers. )
Most of the other HD NES solutions are mods or kit based, rather than a new dedicated console. You'd need an NES and someone to mod it.
Some are on Bunnyboy's channel.
Go to the "everything else" forum and look for the thread "I have a dream..." Most of the AVS stuff is later in the thread. More than you would ever care to know. (And whatever you do, don't ask for the color pallete numbers. )
Most of the other HD NES solutions are mods or kit based, rather than a new dedicated console. You'd need an NES and someone to mod it.
Those do look really sharp! Looks like I have a lot of reading ahead of me... and only a couple weeks to start saving up enough cash.
Those do look really sharp! Looks like I have a lot of reading ahead of me... and only a couple weeks to start saving up enough cash.
He also offers a limited edition AVS in a clear case, a wood storage box, and other goodies. Buy one of those ... so there are more of the standard ones for me.