Revisiting Twin Galaxies
Hey all. Per MrW's suggestion, reposting this here instead of in another thread.
Has anyone recently gone through the process of submitting a score to Twin Galaxies? Curious what was involved; video method, if a modded system was used, etc. Did you find it a difficult or easy experience? Is it worth trying to get a score posted there, even if for novelty's sake? The recent threads there make it seem like they're doing a lot of soul-searching and trying to figure out just how to operate in the new era (example: whether to injest video submissions or permit them to be linked via YouTube).
Has anyone recently gone through the process of submitting a score to Twin Galaxies? Curious what was involved; video method, if a modded system was used, etc. Did you find it a difficult or easy experience? Is it worth trying to get a score posted there, even if for novelty's sake? The recent threads there make it seem like they're doing a lot of soul-searching and trying to figure out just how to operate in the new era (example: whether to injest video submissions or permit them to be linked via YouTube).
Comments
They also invent a bunch of retarded rules and stipulations for certain games to "fix" issues when in reality those games have absolutely meaningless scoring (i.e. Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden and most NES games for that matter). It's pretty much a complete joke as far as I'm concerned.
What's the point? Most of their "records" are worthless and not even close to the real records. I beat or nearly beat several of the Super Mario Kart times after only playing for a few hours. And that included smashing the Rainbow Road "record" and I was drunk off my ass on 4 glasses of Champagne. The real record for RR is still like 3 seconds faster than mine.
They also invent a bunch of retarded rules and stipulations for certain games to "fix" issues when in reality those games have absolutely meaningless scoring (i.e. Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden and most NES games for that matter). It's pretty much a complete joke as far as I'm concerned.
For NES Baseball, 5 or 6 of us beat the TG mark several months ago. In one week of trying. Including me, and I had never played the game. And I played maybe 6 full games over 4 days to do it.
What's the point? Most of their "records" are worthless and not even close to the real records. I beat or nearly beat several of the Super Mario Kart times after only playing for a few hours. And that included smashing the Rainbow Road "record" and I was drunk off my ass on 4 glasses of Champagne. The real record for RR is still like 3 seconds faster than mine.
They also invent a bunch of retarded rules and stipulations for certain games to "fix" issues when in reality those games have absolutely meaningless scoring (i.e. Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden and most NES games for that matter). It's pretty much a complete joke as far as I'm concerned.
Interesting. Also, now I've got the SNES Rainbow Road song stuck in my head. Ha.
What do you think the solution is for stuff like Ninja Gaiden? Simply focus on speed-running, if it's the only "meaningful" scoring method the game has? I've been impressed with the AGDQ crowd (they're local, apparently!) and how much skill they have on display when doing speed-runs of retro games.
I get the feeling that if someone like YouTube Gaming or Twitch wanted to, they could absolutely take this sector over. The vast majority of the game 'footage' lives there now, and both have very strong communities that could probably police it. It'd just be a matter of integrating the scoreboards into the system and flagging videos appropriately.
But now I'm just daydreaming. Ha.
But basically you have to work in compromises to the scoring. No 1UP loops, point pressing, etc. TG uses video to combat this, NA uses the honor system.
Some are simply just busted and have no meaningful records, like most NES and SNES shooters where speedrunning means nothing and score means nothing.
I think my main disagreement with you on a lot of these games you object to, comes down to I just don't think it's a "big deal" to restrict a player to 1-life, and see who is best within 1-life of play.
With a 1-life rule, that vast majority of issues are eliminated, and you reduce the set of "not meaningfully competitive" games to games where there is no timer capable of killing the player yet it's possible to point-press infinitely spawning enemies (i.e. score-competition in Mega Man)
Some are simply just busted and have no meaningful records, like most NES and SNES shooters where speedrunning means nothing and score means nothing.
I think my main disagreement with you on a lot of these games you object to, comes down to I just don't think it's a "big deal" to restrict a player to 1-life, and see who is best within 1-life of play.
With a 1-life rule, that vast majority of issues are eliminated, and you reduce the set of "not meaningfully competitive" games to games where there is no timer capable of killing the player yet it's possible to point-press infinitely spawning enemies (i.e. score-competition in Mega Man)
Yeah, that is the clearest consession you could make for most of those games, and I actually wouldn't be opposed to that, but I also wouldn't take any of those scores at face value without a video. It also makes a lot of those games a boring mess to play though (Ninja Gaiden).
To me a speed run is still more intersting/impressive than 1 life scores for most of those games. Like with games with proper scores, there is no additional information needed for a speed run other than the time (and I suppose where the start and stop points are defined).
Some are simply just busted and have no meaningful records, like most NES and SNES shooters where speedrunning means nothing and score means nothing.
I think my main disagreement with you on a lot of these games you object to, comes down to I just don't think it's a "big deal" to restrict a player to 1-life, and see who is best within 1-life of play.
With a 1-life rule, that vast majority of issues are eliminated, and you reduce the set of "not meaningfully competitive" games to games where there is no timer capable of killing the player yet it's possible to point-press infinitely spawning enemies (i.e. score-competition in Mega Man)
Yeah, that is the clearest consession you could make for most of those games, and I actually wouldn't be opposed to that, but I also wouldn't take any of those scores at face value without a video. It also makes a lot of those games a boring mess to play though (Ninja Gaiden).
To me a speed run is still more intersting/impressive than 1 life scores for most of those games. Like with games with proper scores, there is no additional information needed for a speed run other than the time (and I suppose where the start and stop points are defined).
I completely agree that a speed run time needs less context to be understood.
My primary objection was just to the general attitude about scores (when given reasonable context) not being meaningful in a competitive setting.
And yes, I will agree that Twin Galaxies has enough instances of OTHER types of additional rules that make some of the scores silly to call literal "World Records".
It is one thing for us to come up with novel rules to keep our own contests competitive and fun (and avoid them turning into boring endurance slogs), but our only use of "world record" is in the context of us beating the published records when playing by the same, or tighter (i.e. 1-life run), rules.
That is, we're not coming up with an arbitrarily complex set of conditions and proclaiming our own world record status.
In sport, we have those for which the public has an intrinsic "care" factor. That may be driven by myriad elements, but nonetheless, we are far more concerned about who has the best round of golf all-time at Pebble Beach than we are who has the lowest disc golf score at the park thirty minutes down the road. Both are competitive individual accolades, but one has far more value to the community.
In video games, it's likely no different - often times, when questions like this arise, I try to view them in more abstract terms. Where games are "interesting" competitions, such as a shortest time completing a time trial for a racetrack in a racing game, or highest score for a certain arcade cabinet, little if anything needs to be done to make the competition interesting to the participants or viewers. Adding abstract restrictions to a title might be the only way to make a certain game's competition interesting (just about anyone can COMPLETE a 40 yard dash, but how fast is your time?) or (sure, you're a decent cook, but let's see you manage with this SECRET INGREDIENT) etc.
The "good games" will find their way out of the organic sphere of competition that exists. It's rarely dependent upon the community to find out and seek to eliminate certain titles. If 10,000 people gather to watch a Smash Bros tournament, and 10 people for the Largo Winch speedrunning semifinals, then it's easy to see relative value in skill for these particular pursuits.
... and I was drunk off my ass on 4 glasses of Champagne.
Really? 4 glasses? I'm hoping each glass was the size of the champagne bottle
... and I was drunk off my ass on 4 glasses of Champagne.
Really? 4 glasses? I'm hoping each glass was the size of the champagne bottle
"Drink Baileys Responsibly" - a warning, I assume, about the dangers of milk poisoning.
"Drink Baileys Responsibly" - a warning, I assume, about the dangers of milk poisoning.
Your body can only process lactose so fast before it comes back out.
I mean, I drank a beer a level while playing Mega Man 2 last weekend, and still beat it in 34 minutes (though I did have a death or 2). I had bimmy hand me the beers, so I was drinking responsibly
"Drink Baileys Responsibly" - a warning, I assume, about the dangers of milk poisoning.
Your body can only process lactose so fast before it comes back out.
I mean, I drank a beer a level while playing Mega Man 2 last weekend, and still beat it in 34 minutes (though I did have a death or 2). I had bimmy hand me the beers, so I was drinking responsibly
You're all right by me. I can't wait to do episodes of that. The music alone!
Anyway, wandering back on topic - if Twin Galaxies is not the go-to, what is? Should there even be one?
Anyway, wandering back on topic - if Twin Galaxies is not the go-to, what is? Should there even be one?
It's all subjective. pegboy clearly hates the concept for a variety of reasons, so it will never hold any meaning for him. Others can/do appreciate it, so it holds value for them. Seeing as nobody else has tried to step up to take the place that Twin Galaxies has held for ~25 years, I'd say stick with it for the standard if you're worried about holding or who holds world records for various games.
Originally posted by: dra600n
Originally posted by: pegboy
... and I was drunk off my ass on 4 glasses of Champagne.
Really? 4 glasses? I'm hoping each glass was the size of the champagne bottle
4 glasses is a standard bottle of wine, so it sounds like he just drank a bottle to himself.
That 750 ml at 12% alcohol.
Most people are definitely legally "drunk" with that much, but "drunk off his ass" is a stretch, unless he's 90 lbs and Asian
I think the only go-to is keeping it between your friends and you all compete for the record of your group. To heck with everyone else. Since a de facto record database is not agreeable, I just don't worry about it.
Also, cue AirVillain to come disagree with everyone.
Originally posted by: dra600n
Originally posted by: winterion
Originally posted by: dra600n
"Drink Baileys Responsibly" - a warning, I assume, about the dangers of milk poisoning.
Your body can only process lactose so fast before it comes back out.
I mean, I drank a beer a level while playing Mega Man 2 last weekend, and still beat it in 34 minutes (though I did have a death or 2). I had bimmy hand me the beers, so I was drinking responsibly
Did that treat each stage of Wily's Fortress as a separate level?
Also, what kind of beer? One you're claiming you drank a case, it matters if the stuff is 3% alcohol versus 6%+
As far as speed running being the bar,it depends. I've watched speed runs where players intentionally died and/or used glitches to save time.
Neither impress me....at all.
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Originally posted by: dra600n
Originally posted by: winterion
Originally posted by: dra600n
"Drink Baileys Responsibly" - a warning, I assume, about the dangers of milk poisoning.
Your body can only process lactose so fast before it comes back out.
I mean, I drank a beer a level while playing Mega Man 2 last weekend, and still beat it in 34 minutes (though I did have a death or 2). I had bimmy hand me the beers, so I was drinking responsibly
Did that treat each stage of Wily's Fortress as a separate level?
Also, what kind of beer? One you're claiming you drank a case, it matters if the stuff is 3% alcohol versus 6%+
Of course each level of wily's was a separate level It was PBR. Drank the entire beer while doing Quick Man's lasers without the time stopper. It was a total of 10 or 12 beers in total, as there was a point I didn't think I could manage another beer that quickly.
Originally posted by: gutsman004
As far as speed running being the bar,it depends. I've watched speed runs where players intentionally died and/or used glitches to save time.
Neither impress me....at all.
I'm less impressed by certain type of glitches, but I think you're missing the point if you don't think it's impressive or interesting for a person to figure out the best places to die that actually save time versus staying alive.
That requires a lot of planning and strategy to figure out and is worth a bit more respect than you seem to give it, IMO.
As far as speed running being the bar,it depends. I've watched speed runs where players intentionally died and/or used glitches to save time.
Neither impress me....at all.
I'm less impressed by certain type of glitches, but I think you're missing the point if you don't think it's impressive or interesting for a person to figure out the best places to die that actually save time versus staying alive.
That requires a lot of planning and strategy to figure out and is worth a bit more respect than you seem to give it, IMO.
I should revise my statement.
There are many glitches out there that are difficult to even pull off. I'm not really referring to those,but the glitches to skip difficult portions of the game.
And while I can understand the nuance of offing yourself for the sake of speed,it is just not impressive to me if you are suiciding in order to save time as the point of any game is to not die.
TAS vs. 100% vs. any % etc.
The glitches can be pretty impressive at times but I would rather them do a straight run....then again there are specific categories for that kind of stuff.
TAS vs. 100% vs. any % etc.
I'm lukewarm on speed running. I can see the appeal yet I have a hard time motivating myself to try it seriously.
To be honest,I'm more interested in pacifist,no death,and perfect runs.
The glitches can be pretty impressive at times but I would rather them do a straight run....then again there are specific categories for that kind of stuff.
TAS vs. 100% vs. any % etc.
I'm lukewarm on speed running. I can see the appeal yet I have a hard time motivating myself to try it seriously.
To be honest,I'm more interested in pacifist,no death,and perfect runs.
Depends on the game..usually action/platformers are fun to watch/try but RPGs and adventure games are the epitome of boring bullshit.
The glitches can be pretty impressive at times but I would rather them do a straight run....then again there are specific categories for that kind of stuff.
TAS vs. 100% vs. any % etc.
I'm lukewarm on speed running. I can see the appeal yet I have a hard time motivating myself to try it seriously.
To be honest,I'm more interested in pacifist,no death,and perfect runs.
Depends on the game..usually action/platformers are fun to watch/try but RPGs and adventure games are the epitome of boring bullshit.
couldn't agree more! If I were to try it, I'd probably go with a Mario game, only problem is they've been done to death
The glitches can be pretty impressive at times but I would rather them do a straight run....then again there are specific categories for that kind of stuff.
TAS vs. 100% vs. any % etc.
I'm lukewarm on speed running. I can see the appeal yet I have a hard time motivating myself to try it seriously.
To be honest,I'm more interested in pacifist,no death,and perfect runs.
Depends on the game..usually action/platformers are fun to watch/try but RPGs and adventure games are the epitome of boring bullshit.
couldn't agree more! If I were to try it, I'd probably go with a Mario game, only problem is they've been done to death
Yeah,I'd go for the Mega Man and popular Konami silver box games myself but they've been done to death. Hell,in this day and age every game has practically been done to death so I'll just instead try to do something that few people can actually do....like bench press 400 lbs.
Originally posted by: dra600n
Originally posted by: pegboy
... and I was drunk off my ass on 4 glasses of Champagne.
Really? 4 glasses? I'm hoping each glass was the size of the champagne bottle
LMAO!!! Champagne and SNES??? Thats a classy combo right there.