Game Memories:
It has been a decade since I've played Tales of Phantasia, and I remember it being very good at the time. It still is, but I am finding that I remember almost nothing about the game's story or world. Bits and pieces here and there, but overall it is a rather odd experience. Usually when I play a game that involves traversing and re-traversing a world, even if only once, it sticks in my mind crystal clear, which makes me want to say that it has something to do with the game itself, and not me. Maybe, however, it is me. Perhaps I am just getting old, or it is because it is not a game that I played in childhood, although I can think of many examples that run contrary to that. Perhaps it is because it was played on a handheld, or at a tumultuous time in life? Maybe ToP just does not do a great job of distinguishing between places and characters, since this problem does not seem to happen with anything that Square made at the time. Or it could be as simple as playing through a fan-translated version this time versus the official one on the GBA. It could be the short area play times too, since it seems like I am saving every other minute, as opposed to the FF series where the player has to gear up and spend a chunk of time getting through a dungeon (thereby making them more memorable?). Square also cued many of its games with unique and constantly changing music, whereas ToP does not; it all kind of runs together. It also has a small cast of characters, that are not given overly strong personalities or pasts, and though the graphics are pretty, they all kind of blend together.
I have the same problem with Star Ocean too, and even after having played through most of it twice, I can't remember what happens. In a way it is kind of nice, since it feels like I am playing the game for the first time. Several 3D games I can say the same about, though I do not tend to play too many in that dimension (Four Heroes of Light and the first FFCC on the DS come to mind). Now if I could just forget FF IV and VI, Chrono Trigger, and others, then I'd be really happy .
I have many other theories, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Do you forget certain games, and remember others better? Which ones stick in your mind, and which ones do not? What leads to remembering something better, in your opinion? Graphics, story, sound, characters, etc., anything and everything that might have an affect.
I'm mostly thinking RPGs, but other games use all of these things as well. The difference with platformers and other action-oriented games is that there are constant moments of tension and trial that the mind must focus on and overcome. It seems like that would aid in remembering certain sections of a game.
I have the same problem with Star Ocean too, and even after having played through most of it twice, I can't remember what happens. In a way it is kind of nice, since it feels like I am playing the game for the first time. Several 3D games I can say the same about, though I do not tend to play too many in that dimension (Four Heroes of Light and the first FFCC on the DS come to mind). Now if I could just forget FF IV and VI, Chrono Trigger, and others, then I'd be really happy .
I have many other theories, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Do you forget certain games, and remember others better? Which ones stick in your mind, and which ones do not? What leads to remembering something better, in your opinion? Graphics, story, sound, characters, etc., anything and everything that might have an affect.
I'm mostly thinking RPGs, but other games use all of these things as well. The difference with platformers and other action-oriented games is that there are constant moments of tension and trial that the mind must focus on and overcome. It seems like that would aid in remembering certain sections of a game.
Comments
Oh and obviously this would apply to the first time you play a type of game, like your first platformer, rpg, etc.
Anyways, carry on.
Shocking scenes are an exception - something incredibly emotional or effedup will be memerable years later. Like Lucca Blight telling the dying woman to squeal like a pig.
Examples of (sub)plot woven into memorable character interactions:
- Chrono Trigger: This game is king of this in my mind, but I'll just give the example of Lucca and Robo. You find throughout that Lucca loves machines. She finds Robo and is able to fix him, and you need him to advance the plot. When Robo is beaten up by his "brothers," it's a genuinely sad moment, especially because of Lucca's reaction. You stop so Robo can be fixed, since he made moving forward possible and you've established a connection with him, and then continue. When you learn about Lucca's past and why she's interested in machines (which made her repairs of Robo even possible), Robo is there to comfort her, showing how he has grown from a static, unfeeling machine to a caring, sentimental robot. Lucca's effect on Robo (and vice versa) is further emphasized in the Proto Dome sidequest, as well as when confronting Lavos. Throughout, you see their growth and how that further motivates them to conquer the evil they see before them.
- Final Fantasy VI: Locke leading to Celes's development is another important point. She is actually similar to Robo, now that I think about it. She starts off as a general for the evil empire (like a programmable robot), but she begins to question why she is participating in these actions. When Locke finds her, she has zero emotion, and she is continually trying to hide from her past. Locke (like Lucca for Robo) demonstrates a level of care that at least begins the process of letting her show emotion. However, the opera scene forces her to confront emotion, and she begins to open up. After her betrayal, it is clear she truly is wrestling with her choices, and in the World of Ruin, she finally meets a "family member," giving her a sense of belonging. Whatever happens to her "grandfather," she gains a renewed sense of purpose, finding it necessary to save what is worth saving in the world and to try to restore the good. This enables her to confront Edgar, even when he tries to rebuff, and allows her to stand against Kefka when before she had cowed to his wishes.
- Tales of Phantasia: Mint and Cless. When Cless finds Mint in the prison after receiving the earring from Mint's mother, he hides the fact that her mother had died because he doesn't believe Mint will be able to handle it. He is constantly trying to protect her. When he realizes the earring is missing, he becomes worried, but then forgets about it. When Mint asks for Cless to speak with her outside at Ary, she reveals that she had taken the earring and thanks Cless for protecting her. She explains that she would not have been able to confront the loss of her mother in that moment, but had since grown, partially from Cless's help/protection, and was ready to face Dhaos so long as Cless was there too.
Examples of memorable character interactions, but seemingly unconnected to the (sub)plot:
- Tales of Phantasia: The infamous boat scene. The scene in the Japon spa. Klarth's interactions with his wife and his memories of her.
- Lufia and the Fortress of Doom: The constant, humorous bickering between Jerin and Aguro as well as the Hero and Lufia. The goofiness of Sharia.
Those are points I could think of in the spur of the moment. Hopefully that helps.
Good ole platformers and run and slash games are just fun without having to try.
If i played 60-80 hours of an rpg and i didnt remember the game years later then it wasnt good lol. Thats nuts. Should be coming back to you as you play. Maybe your memory is just slipping.
The weird thing about ToP for me is that I spent sixty to eighty hours playing it, and if I recall I completed every possible side quest (and that'd be the only thing that I recall about it). I can even remember where/when I played it, how the room was set up, the fabric of the couch, but not what was going on on the screen. Same with Star Ocean.
Anyways, carry on.
Sounds like you were distracted while playing it or maybe had another game lined up to play after it so you were trying to blast through it.
As for the topic at hand,my theory is if you play a lot of RPGs the okay ones will all just run together and you will remember a few highlights and lowlights and bits and pieces of the story.
The ones that you thoroughly enjoyed or hated you will remember a majority of it.
I haven't played Dragon Warrior 3 in about 20 years yet on this playthrough I remembered quite a bit from the game. Haven't beaten it yet,but aside from looking up to where the golden claw was (It's not even an essential item anyway) I haven't needed any help of where to go or what to do.
Originally posted by: winterion
I can certainly look back at many game memories, but as an academic, I have to take my rose-colored glasses off and really critique. Depth of exposition, character design, and unique modes of storytelling are what make for memorable stories. The Hero's Journey has been done a thousand times. Tell me something new. Final Fantasy 6 will always stand out for me in this regard - in a domain filled with predictable patterns, it had a layered depth and maturity to its method that casts a much more impressive shadow as the years go by.
Funny you bring up FFVI. I've replayed all the best of the SNES these past six months (FFIV, FFVI, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Treasure of the Rudras, currently Tales of Phantasia), and it is the one out of all those that I feel has not aged as well. The characters fell flat this time around, the tasks tedious, etc. That being said, it does have memorable locations and characters, even if the narrative feels stretched/broken at times.
I tend to forget the ins and outs of all games - unless I played them as a kid. Humor and characters stick with me. As well as a general feeling of badassery.
Shocking scenes are an exception - something incredibly emotional or effedup will be memerable years later. Like Lucca Blight telling the dying woman to squeal like a pig.
Suikoden II, that one got me in so many different scenes.
In my second playthrough of the game I remember the party is at Tinto, and your hero basically is given the option to run away. Being curious if the game would stop me, I did. It turns out there are two possible endings after that, one of which has you rejoin your army, but with the tragic loss of one of your generals. If you choose to continue running, the game ends.
Originally posted by: SoleGooseProductions
Originally posted by: winterion
I can certainly look back at many game memories, but as an academic, I have to take my rose-colored glasses off and really critique. Depth of exposition, character design, and unique modes of storytelling are what make for memorable stories. The Hero's Journey has been done a thousand times. Tell me something new. Final Fantasy 6 will always stand out for me in this regard - in a domain filled with predictable patterns, it had a layered depth and maturity to its method that casts a much more impressive shadow as the years go by.
Funny you bring up FFVI. I've replayed all the best of the SNES these past six months (FFIV, FFVI, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Treasure of the Rudras, currently Tales of Phantasia), and it is the one out of all those that I feel has not aged as well. The characters fell flat this time around, the tasks tedious, etc. That being said, it does have memorable locations and characters, even if the narrative feels stretched/broken at times.
One, it sounds like you've had an awesome last six months!
Two, I'm all ears for whatever critique you've got to contribute. I'm of the mind that FF6 was one of those times they did a better job escaping conventional character archetypes in favor of more rounded individuals, but if you see examples otherwise, sincerely happy to hear 'em.
Three, I am slightly envious that you have a couple of those titles, as I don't.
Originally posted by: TheFinder
I find that character interactions/personalities can stick in my mind better than the story, and unless the (sub)plot is tightly woven into those character interactions, it can be difficult to remember the story.
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Those are points I could think of in the spur of the moment. Hopefully that helps.
It does. I always enjoy your input and reflections on things.
Originally posted by: gutsman004
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As for the topic at hand,my theory is if you play a lot of RPGs the okay ones will all just run together and you will remember a few highlights and lowlights and bits and pieces of the story.
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You're probably right on this. When I think of "remembering" a game, many of the more mundane details are not part of that supposed memory. I'll be curious what comes back when I replay Star Ocean. I couldn't tell you one character's name, a location, or much of anything at the moment.
Edit: And I think after putting in a good number of hours on ToP that part of the problem could be the high frequency of random battles. It is hard to get into sections of the game since it is constantly interrupted (and I am a fan of random battles, but there is a point where it is too much). Also the smoothness of the graphics. Everything is pretty, but nothing is distinct.
With JRPGs I feel like if you have great core gameplay, characters and story, the best memories then come from the setpieces. Especially if they're accented with great music. I think Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III/VI by far have the biggest number of these. I use to get chills seeing the FFIII intro, or the first time you step out into the CT Medieval Age.
Whereas games like Earthbound and Super Mario RPG I feel are a step down in this department. I definitely have very fond memories of both of them, but just not to the same degree. I honestly cannot remember any Earthbound music, and only vague ideas of the setpieces beyond the first town. And I played through that sucker twice, while reading and re-reading the guide over and over again. Like, I remember fighting the circus, going to the alternate dimension big city, getting ambushed by the Kraken, turning into robots, etc. But I sure as hell can't remember any context around that. I'd say the only things that are especially memorable is the super atmospheric intro with the Meteor and the cops, and the bizarre Geiger-esque final boss Everything else is just sorta random and feels unrelated.
And then games even further down the chain like Secret of Mana; I barely built any memories around it. Other than the poorly imlemented co-op, and the awesome intro music, I'm honestly flummoxed as to why people love that game the way they do. No great setpieces, because there's no story, characters, or gameplay to back it up.
For Western RPGs, its practically the same. I don't recall much about Icewind Dale, because its just a dungeon crawler. But Baldur's Gate II? Who could forget the journey to Menzoberranzan, or taking on the entire cast of characters from the Drizzt storylines? Same reason why I adore Dragon Age so much.
Try making sense of that convoluted mess of story. I honestly feel like that was one of the most ambitious stories ever put into a video game. Clearly not everything about it worked (second disc was bumbled) but can you name anything that even comes close to the ambitious nature of this story (only talking about video games here). The story spans 10,000 years and revolves around an extra-dimensional being (basically the true god of that universe) constantly reincarnating the hero in order to free itself from the clutches of a man-made-alien-god-machine. There are some very shocking moments in the game, characters realizing they are pawns to a false religion, many shocking and memorable death scenes, I AM YOUR FATHER type moments, and probably the best and most "realistic" love story in a JRPG game as well.
Originally posted by: winterion
One, it sounds like you've had an awesome last six months!
Two, I'm all ears for whatever critique you've got to contribute. I'm of the mind that FF6 was one of those times they did a better job escaping conventional character archetypes in favor of more rounded individuals, but if you see examples otherwise, sincerely happy to hear 'em.
Three, I am slightly envious that you have a couple of those titles, as I don't.
1) Surgery will do that to a person, I wouldn't exactly call it awesome . But to get through recovery I did game like a bandit. I figured that it'd be a good use of time in terms of figuring out what is done well in a game, and what is not. Research! FFIV was beaten in a weekend, and the others fell pretty quick too. Playing WOZZ actually felt like a job though.
2) I've got a bunch of notes laying around, but in general I do feel that the characters are distinctive in FFVI. This time their inner workings just didn't feel believable, for whatever reason. So while I know them and can tell you about them, actually reading their lines felt empty. I guess if the writers could accomplish the memory or idea of a chracter, though, then they did something right. The overall narrative problems were more confined to the WoR, likely due to the non-linearity of it. However, in the WoB when you go from fighting the Empire to suddenly sitting down to dinner with them... come on. There was little connection between events that would cause this to be believable, and it seemed that they relied more on the player's imagination than on screen text. In itself perhaps not a bad move, but one that is fairly transparent and leaves something to be desired. In FFVI's defence, I have probably played it too many times.
3) The right age at the right time. Our little street was RPG heaven in fourth and fifth grade, as we let each other borrow things and figured out what was worth playing. Of the ones we owned, we bought most of those new, or got them as gifts for birthdays or Christmases. An EverDrive works well for the translated ones, except in the case of Star Ocean of course. I'll be curious to see if playing on an actual SNES as opposed to an emulator will make a difference with ToP and SO this time around.
Originally posted by: Brock Landers
And then games even further down the chain like Secret of Mana; I barely built any memories around it. Other than the poorly imlemented co-op, and the awesome intro music, I'm honestly flummoxed as to why people love that game the way they do. No great setpieces, because there's no story, characters, or gameplay to back it up.
A brief but attempted defense of SoM:
* The fact that it even had co-op was exciting, and it sure trumped the mediocre AI. The only real failure here is that the co-op requires you be far enough in to have said characters, so friends have to wait for their turn to play.
* The intro music is only part of an extremely complex, prog-inspired soundtrack. Hiroki Kikuta can hang his hat on both this and Seiken 3. That said, yes, the whale at the beginning is haunting in the best of ways.
* There is a certain lack of attachment to the world that the cannon travel can't communicate, and that you don't really appeciate the topology until you get Flammie, is a big problem, yes. Other titles of the era got you interested in the actual world far more effectively. Secret of Mana leaned too heavily on the immediate primary plot thread throughout. That said, I do think the gameplay itself is a strong selling point to the title once you and two buddies are playing.
We're planning on doing an SoM playthrough as part of the one-year anniversary of the channel.
It's worse in CT, because the rest of the characters are so good, it drops it from the level of greatness it should have achieved. In SOM the story and characters weren't really there anyway, so it's less of a problem.
Originally posted by: pegboy
CT and SOM both suffer because the protagonist is a fucking mute, which is one of my least favorite troupes in RPGs and any story based medium. It's the ultimate form of lazy and creatively bankrupt writing.
It's worse in CT, because the rest of the characters are so good, it drops it from the level of greatness it should have achieved. In SOM the story and characters weren't really there anyway, so it's less of a problem.
I enjoy the silent protagonist, if done well, as it helps put you in the role of the character. For CT, the characters shape Chrono himself, which was fairly effective. Detailed character animations also helped. It can be done way worse. His entire lack of backstory is still kind of strange when you think about it.
I'll read your post on Xenogears someday, when I actually finish it (and understand it). Thanks for the heads up on the spoilers!
Like others I tend to remember parts of RPGs but not the entire game.
I remember when I was younger I would be afraid to attempt a hard dungeon in say Dragon Warrior. As an adult I found out that drinking a beer made me have lots of courage. Sometimes it worked out and it was fun other times I lost half my gold and had to try again.