.they do seem kinda neat but I still gotta collect the games too. The real ones.
What Pegboy is harping on, is that when you're buying "reproductions" you aren't really "collecting" anything.
It's a completely arbitrary commodity item, of entirely arbitrary quantity and origin.
That's like buying a poster of Starry Night and claiming you collect fine art.
If somebody is going to just dabble in these things, sure, just buy a single repro, because it's cheaper.
But if you're going to buy more than 3, buy a flash cart and never worry about it again.
The only repros I'd tell anybody to physically buy, would be the games that won't fit on a flash cart due to expanded ROM use (i.e. stuff like Legend of Link)
I'm glad you got some games that you'll enjoy that will give you some new experiences on the system.
But I think it's worth a word of financial caution to anybody else interested in the topic, that there are MUCH cheaper ways to play these games on the real hardware, if they dont' want to emulate in the first place.
.they do seem kinda neat but I still gotta collect the games too. The real ones.
What Pegboy is harping on, is that when you're buying "reproductions" you aren't really "collecting" anything.
It's a completely arbitrary commodity item, of entirely arbitrary quantity and origin.
That's like buying a poster of Starry Night and claiming you collect fine art.
If somebody is going to just dabble in these things, sure, just buy a single repro, because it's cheaper.
But if you're going to buy more than 3, buy a flash cart and never worry about it again.
The only repros I'd tell anybody to physically buy, would be the games that won't fit on a flash cart due to expanded ROM use (i.e. stuff like Legend of Link)
I'm glad you got some games that you'll enjoy that will give you some new experiences on the system.
But I think it's worth a word of financial caution to anybody else interested in the topic, that there are MUCH cheaper ways to play these games on the real hardware, if they dont' want to emulate in the first place.
Yeah I was in the same place a year ago where I was about to buy a bunch of Dragon Quest repros. When I started adding the cost for 4 super famicom repros the everdrive made sense. Since then I have gotten so much enjoyment out of it for uses I never expected (Test carts, hacks, etc). Anyway just a tip for anyone considering repro but if OP is happy with his purchases that is all that matters.
Lol. Your "repros" are just as fake as a flash cart, except the flash cart saves you shit loads of money. What is the deference between using a flash cart for hacks compared to translated ROMs, neither are "real" games.
Oh man... give it a rest. Saying a flash cart is better then individual repros of unreleased/translated/hack games ... in a thread of a guy who is just sharing his joy of owning said media... is pretty shitty. Also...
How much money have you spent on fake/repro games?
I chose to get the repo games because this way it would be like what the US versions might look/feel like had we really did get them. But those Everdrives do look pretty good as an additional tool for my retro gaming arsenal as well. That's definitely how I'd do the homemade hacks because there's like billions of those. I'm guessing though you can't get an Everdrive with all the roms already on the SD card?
Well OCD did offer an exceptional deal (one of which was for ten SNES games) AND he did have Snoopy's Concert (which I think only just now showed up at any repro place). And I had been on the fence about doing the repro thing for at least a few years. So I figured if I was ever going to do this at all now was the time.
I'm guessing though you can't get an Everdrive with all the roms already on the SD card?
I don't think they even sell them with an SD card included, or at least I don't see them available on the store.
RetroUSB uses CompactFlash cards and does have options to buy 2gig or 4gig cards at extra cost. The cards have all the software needed, but not the ROMs.
I think most people would rather load their own ROMs than have the makers take a wild guess on which to load. Honestly, though, the most time consuming part is hunting the ROMs down. Loading them takes a minute or two.
I do have complete sets of roms from a eh, certain popular go-to website for that sort of thing. So it's just a matter of copying them on the SD card and I'm all set?
If I was only going to buy one or two, I'd be inclined to save my time.
If I'm going to buy ten... I'd be more inclined to save my money and take the time to deal with a flashcart.
But it's all a matter of personal preference.
I think it's kind of fun to see repros with the custom labels and all. I don't think anyone is fooling themselves into believing they constitute a recognized collection, but then I think people get too anal when it comes to defining an NES collection anyways.
I do agree that at $30 or so a pop repros can get pricey when they collectively exceed the cost of an everdrive. But I'm not going to come into a thread frothing at the mouth when someone chooses to spend their money on repros, either.
Yeah there''s way more worth while translated RPGs than quality ROM hacks available.
Debatable, especially with all the Super Mario World + Super Metroid hacks that have been coming out of the woodwork the past few years.
After you get over the bellyfull of translated Enix/Square Soft games, and the outlier great rpgs that were completely under the radar (Super Shell Monsters 2 and Energy Breaker I'm looking at you!)... most of the translated games (for the SNES anyways) are fairly mediocre or just good and not great. Games of the ilk like Monstania + Gulliver Boy + Lennus 2 while having moments of greatness fall short of being truly great games.
What I'd really love to see on the hacking scene are more "fringe" great game's hacked like Actraiser 1, Pocky + Rocky, Soul Blazer, Legend of Mystical Ninja or Mega Man X and the like. The hacking scene is so focused on the main franchises of Nintendo on the SNES that the necessary tools to do anything worthwhile with any of those 2nd party games simply don't exist. Castlevania for the NES has more hacks available then pretty much anything not Mario/Metroid/Zelda related for the SNES by itself.
So it's just a matter of copying them on the SD card and I'm all set?
Some games might require additional mappers loaded on as well. It just depends. But plenty of people can walk you through.
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Originally posted by: Tulpa
But I'm not going to come into a thread frothing at the mouth when someone chooses to spend their money on repros, either.
You realize we're talking about Pegboy, right?
He comes across as... passionate... with respect to how he posts.
I don't mind passion, but a little discretion on where people direct that passion can go a long way.
"Should I get a puppy or a virtual pet? I'm on a budget"
"Virtual pets can be had for free and you can save money in the long run."
vs.
"Hey, I got a new puppy."
"Why did you spend money on a dog when you could have a virtual pet for free? What are you, stupid?"
I've lurked on these forums for years and I'm convinced that Pegboy is either a Mod's alt account or is married to a Mod or has some sort of mob ties IRL, otherwise he'd have been banned for being as inflammatory as he often is over things he (repeatedly goes out of his way) to whine about. It's a bizarre thing that I've learned to live with in regards to some forums, how some people are reeled in with a tight rope yet others can get away with being openly hostile to anyone with a differing opinion then theres. It is what it is and I wouldn't pay it much mind, Tulpa.
The flashcart argument to me is very strawman; instead of telling someone to buy a flashcart for 200$ to play it on "real hardware" to try to save them money... why not instead just recommend they spend all of 20$ and buy an USB controller and play them via emulator on their PC instead? That right there saves them even MORE $, doesn't it?
This is a collectors website... and some of us *gasp!* ... like collecting reproduction carts. I don't think it's hard to understand, although apparently it is hard for some people to accept.
I'd also disagree they are "worthless". Do an Ebay search of "Timewalk NES or Timewalk SNES" ... and then tell me they're worthless.
You are right, it is hard for me to accept that there are actually people on this forum who collect bootlegs instead of playing the same games on a flash cart.
Yeah there''s way more worth while translated RPGs than quality ROM hacks available.
Debatable, especially with all the Super Mario World + Super Metroid hacks that have been coming out of the woodwork the past few years.
After you get over the bellyfull of translated Enix/Square Soft games, and the outlier great rpgs that were completely under the radar (Super Shell Monsters 2 and Energy Breaker I'm looking at you!)... most of the translated games (for the SNES anyways) are fairly mediocre or just good and not great. Games of the ilk like Monstania + Gulliver Boy + Lennus 2 while having moments of greatness fall short of being truly great games.
What I'd really love to see on the hacking scene are more "fringe" great game's hacked like Actraiser 1, Pocky + Rocky, Soul Blazer, Legend of Mystical Ninja or Mega Man X and the like. The hacking scene is so focused on the main franchises of Nintendo on the SNES that the necessary tools to do anything worthwhile with any of those 2nd party games simply don't exist. Castlevania for the NES has more hacks available then pretty much anything not Mario/Metroid/Zelda related for the SNES by itself.
It boils down to taste. Personally I'm not interested in playing a plethora of Mario and Metroid remixes. But my core point is if you're limiting yourself to the handful of popular reproductions everyone purchases you're missing out on some potentially awesome games. In the end I personally don't care what people spend their money on. But collecting reproductions is a money pit that does not at all appeal to me in terms of cost (among other factors).
Also worth while =/= truly great games. I don't need a game to be perfect to enjoy playing it.
But hey - that's why I review games. Draw some attention to the titles people aren't generally talking about.
You are right, it is hard for me to accept that there are actually people on this forum who collect bootlegs instead of playing the same games on a flash cart.
I kinda agree with you. The only repro I've bought is Mario Adventure from Timewalk, and I only did it because I thought the Powerpak was not compatible with it (and I didn't want to emulate). I later found out I could play it in my flashcart (doh!).
Even so, I was greatly tempted to buy some of their other games because they really put a great deal of effort in their CIB productions. I wanted a Zelda Outlands because the box looked beautiful in metal foil. Since there are no official physical releases for these hacks and many homebrews, a nice repro (with great care in the production) can be a good way to have it in collectible form.
In any case, I believe a repro of an expensive NES game is just bollocks, because the real thing really exists, and it IS possible to get. With hacks and homebrew there is no such thing (unless it's an official release like Battle Kid).
I've bought two repros,both from NA members. I don't regret it. I've had two others given to me. At one point I was planning to collect the cool repros from some of the best repro makers out there but I gave that up as I'd be spending a lot more money than I want to. Now I just emulate. Way cheaper and I still get to experience playing the game.
The flashcart argument to me is very strawman; instead of telling someone to buy a flashcart for 200$ to play it on "real hardware" to try to save them money... why not instead just recommend they spend all of 20$ and buy an USB controller and play them via emulator on their PC instead? That right there saves them even MORE $, doesn't it?
What current flash cart costs $200?
That seems like a price that goes back to the old Atari VCS flash carts.
Powerpak debuted at $135, and pretty sure Everdrive has stayed competitive in price.
(Not trying to nitpick, but when you slide the goalpost from $130-ish to $200, you're moving the argument from a 4-5 game threshold to an 8+ game threshold to come out ahead with the flashcart... kind of a big difference)
The flashcart argument to me is very strawman; instead of telling someone to buy a flashcart for 200$ to play it on "real hardware" to try to save them money... why not instead just recommend they spend all of 20$ and buy an USB controller and play them via emulator on their PC instead? That right there saves them even MORE $, doesn't it?
This is a collectors website... and some of us *gasp!* ... like collecting reproduction carts. I don't think it's hard to understand, although apparently it is hard for some people to accept.
I'd also disagree they are "worthless". Do an Ebay search of "Timewalk NES or Timewalk SNES" ... and then tell me they're worthless.
At the end, everyone is entitled to spend their money however they like. But I think there are substantial flaws in that analogy. A flashcart provides 100% accurate console gaming compared to the original carts. An emulator, not so much. Simulated scanlines in most emulators look like shit, for example. Some games used hardware tricks that can be hardly emulated. And certain things about the console itself make a part of the experience. I don't like to play atari 2600 with a sega genesis controller because that is absolutely against that clunky feeling of the consle (graphics and hardware wise).
I wouldn't look down a person that prefers emulators, because money-wise it's the best option. But some hobbists like me appreciate other parts of the retro-gaming experience (including the collecting factor).
I say as long as you're happy with what you're playing. Let everyone else be so also. If it's cool to you, play on an emulator, a flashcart, a hardware clone or whatever. It's your money do whatever you want.
Well folks, I got my repo carts a few days ago and right now I'm rocking me some MegaMan and Bass...and how does it compare to when I first played this game via an emulator/translation patch back in my UK days in the early 2000s? There is no comparison, and it's super nice to play this game without the cramped screen/screen crunch you get with the GBA version. And Snoopy Concert looks so awesome, just like the Sunday comics! And also regarding MegaMan and Bass, it seems the translation patch is a bit different compared to the one I used back then? I'm guessing it's a more accurate translation of course
And I know some on here think it was foolish of me to get the repo carts, but I wanted to experience the whole "what if" deal regarding how the cartridges might have looked and felt like had we gotten a proper US release. I wouldn't mind someday doing those Everdrive things for say, the rom hacks and trying out the more obscure games, but I would never consider it a substitute for owning the real cartridge...or in this case as close as you can get to the real deal.
And aren't Tales of Phantasia (I was told awhile ago that the GBA port is rather lousy), Secret of Mana (I got the first one also), and Illusion of Gaia also major blue chip RPGs for the SNES? Well I got them waiting on deck but which one should I tackle first? I'm leaning towards Tales of Phantasia for some reason.
The SFC version of MM & B is way better than the GBA version. I need to play it some more and try to master it. Still the most difficult game in the classic series in my opinion.
Comments
.they do seem kinda neat but I still gotta collect the games too. The real ones.
What Pegboy is harping on, is that when you're buying "reproductions" you aren't really "collecting" anything.
It's a completely arbitrary commodity item, of entirely arbitrary quantity and origin.
That's like buying a poster of Starry Night and claiming you collect fine art.
If somebody is going to just dabble in these things, sure, just buy a single repro, because it's cheaper.
But if you're going to buy more than 3, buy a flash cart and never worry about it again.
The only repros I'd tell anybody to physically buy, would be the games that won't fit on a flash cart due to expanded ROM use (i.e. stuff like Legend of Link)
I'm glad you got some games that you'll enjoy that will give you some new experiences on the system.
But I think it's worth a word of financial caution to anybody else interested in the topic, that there are MUCH cheaper ways to play these games on the real hardware, if they dont' want to emulate in the first place.
.they do seem kinda neat but I still gotta collect the games too. The real ones.
What Pegboy is harping on, is that when you're buying "reproductions" you aren't really "collecting" anything.
It's a completely arbitrary commodity item, of entirely arbitrary quantity and origin.
That's like buying a poster of Starry Night and claiming you collect fine art.
If somebody is going to just dabble in these things, sure, just buy a single repro, because it's cheaper.
But if you're going to buy more than 3, buy a flash cart and never worry about it again.
The only repros I'd tell anybody to physically buy, would be the games that won't fit on a flash cart due to expanded ROM use (i.e. stuff like Legend of Link)
I'm glad you got some games that you'll enjoy that will give you some new experiences on the system.
But I think it's worth a word of financial caution to anybody else interested in the topic, that there are MUCH cheaper ways to play these games on the real hardware, if they dont' want to emulate in the first place.
Yeah I was in the same place a year ago where I was about to buy a bunch of Dragon Quest repros. When I started adding the cost for 4 super famicom repros the everdrive made sense. Since then I have gotten so much enjoyment out of it for uses I never expected (Test carts, hacks, etc). Anyway just a tip for anyone considering repro but if OP is happy with his purchases that is all that matters.
Lol. Your "repros" are just as fake as a flash cart, except the flash cart saves you shit loads of money. What is the deference between using a flash cart for hacks compared to translated ROMs, neither are "real" games.
Oh man... give it a rest. Saying a flash cart is better then individual repros of unreleased/translated/hack games ... in a thread of a guy who is just sharing his joy of owning said media... is pretty shitty. Also...
How much money have you spent on fake/repro games?
I'm guessing though you can't get an Everdrive with all the roms already on the SD card?
I'm sure it depends on who you buy it from.
But in general, you're correct that a Flashcart won't be an "it just works" solution if you what something completely turnkey.
There's that. Whereas the repro carts are just as if the game came out in the US
Sure.
I think most of the knee-jerk alarm regarding the frugality of purchase comes from going in so heavily versus the alternative (flash cart).
If I was only going to buy one or two, I'd be inclined to save my time.
If I'm going to buy ten... I'd be more inclined to save my money and take the time to deal with a flashcart.
But it's all a matter of personal preference.
I'm guessing though you can't get an Everdrive with all the roms already on the SD card?
I don't think they even sell them with an SD card included, or at least I don't see them available on the store.
RetroUSB uses CompactFlash cards and does have options to buy 2gig or 4gig cards at extra cost. The cards have all the software needed, but not the ROMs.
I think most people would rather load their own ROMs than have the makers take a wild guess on which to load. Honestly, though, the most time consuming part is hunting the ROMs down. Loading them takes a minute or two.
If I was only going to buy one or two, I'd be inclined to save my time.
If I'm going to buy ten... I'd be more inclined to save my money and take the time to deal with a flashcart.
But it's all a matter of personal preference.
I think it's kind of fun to see repros with the custom labels and all. I don't think anyone is fooling themselves into believing they constitute a recognized collection, but then I think people get too anal when it comes to defining an NES collection anyways.
I do agree that at $30 or so a pop repros can get pricey when they collectively exceed the cost of an everdrive. But I'm not going to come into a thread frothing at the mouth when someone chooses to spend their money on repros, either.
You realize we're talking about Pegboy, right?
He comes across as... passionate... with respect to how he posts.
So it's just a matter of copying them on the SD card and I'm all set?
Some games might require additional mappers loaded on as well. It just depends. But plenty of people can walk you through.
You realize we're talking about Pegboy, right?
He comes across as... passionate... with respect to how he posts.
I don't mind passion, but a little discretion on where people direct that passion can go a long way.
"Should I get a puppy or a virtual pet? I'm on a budget"
"Virtual pets can be had for free and you can save money in the long run."
vs.
"Hey, I got a new puppy."
"Why did you spend money on a dog when you could have a virtual pet for free? What are you, stupid?"
Yeah there''s way more worth while translated RPGs than quality ROM hacks available.
Debatable, especially with all the Super Mario World + Super Metroid hacks that have been coming out of the woodwork the past few years.
After you get over the bellyfull of translated Enix/Square Soft games, and the outlier great rpgs that were completely under the radar (Super Shell Monsters 2 and Energy Breaker I'm looking at you!)... most of the translated games (for the SNES anyways) are fairly mediocre or just good and not great. Games of the ilk like Monstania + Gulliver Boy + Lennus 2 while having moments of greatness fall short of being truly great games.
What I'd really love to see on the hacking scene are more "fringe" great game's hacked like Actraiser 1, Pocky + Rocky, Soul Blazer, Legend of Mystical Ninja or Mega Man X and the like. The hacking scene is so focused on the main franchises of Nintendo on the SNES that the necessary tools to do anything worthwhile with any of those 2nd party games simply don't exist. Castlevania for the NES has more hacks available then pretty much anything not Mario/Metroid/Zelda related for the SNES by itself.
So it's just a matter of copying them on the SD card and I'm all set?
Some games might require additional mappers loaded on as well. It just depends. But plenty of people can walk you through.
You realize we're talking about Pegboy, right?
He comes across as... passionate... with respect to how he posts.
I don't mind passion, but a little discretion on where people direct that passion can go a long way.
"Should I get a puppy or a virtual pet? I'm on a budget"
"Virtual pets can be had for free and you can save money in the long run."
vs.
"Hey, I got a new puppy."
"Why did you spend money on a dog when you could have a virtual pet for free? What are you, stupid?"
I've lurked on these forums for years and I'm convinced that Pegboy is either a Mod's alt account or is married to a Mod or has some sort of mob ties IRL, otherwise he'd have been banned for being as inflammatory as he often is over things he (repeatedly goes out of his way) to whine about. It's a bizarre thing that I've learned to live with in regards to some forums, how some people are reeled in with a tight rope yet others can get away with being openly hostile to anyone with a differing opinion then theres. It is what it is and I wouldn't pay it much mind, Tulpa.
This is a collectors website... and some of us *gasp!* ... like collecting reproduction carts. I don't think it's hard to understand, although apparently it is hard for some people to accept.
I'd also disagree they are "worthless". Do an Ebay search of "Timewalk NES or Timewalk SNES" ... and then tell me they're worthless.
Yeah there''s way more worth while translated RPGs than quality ROM hacks available.
Debatable, especially with all the Super Mario World + Super Metroid hacks that have been coming out of the woodwork the past few years.
After you get over the bellyfull of translated Enix/Square Soft games, and the outlier great rpgs that were completely under the radar (Super Shell Monsters 2 and Energy Breaker I'm looking at you!)... most of the translated games (for the SNES anyways) are fairly mediocre or just good and not great. Games of the ilk like Monstania + Gulliver Boy + Lennus 2 while having moments of greatness fall short of being truly great games.
What I'd really love to see on the hacking scene are more "fringe" great game's hacked like Actraiser 1, Pocky + Rocky, Soul Blazer, Legend of Mystical Ninja or Mega Man X and the like. The hacking scene is so focused on the main franchises of Nintendo on the SNES that the necessary tools to do anything worthwhile with any of those 2nd party games simply don't exist. Castlevania for the NES has more hacks available then pretty much anything not Mario/Metroid/Zelda related for the SNES by itself.
It boils down to taste. Personally I'm not interested in playing a plethora of Mario and Metroid remixes. But my core point is if you're limiting yourself to the handful of popular reproductions everyone purchases you're missing out on some potentially awesome games. In the end I personally don't care what people spend their money on. But collecting reproductions is a money pit that does not at all appeal to me in terms of cost (among other factors).
Also worth while =/= truly great games. I don't need a game to be perfect to enjoy playing it.
But hey - that's why I review games. Draw some attention to the titles people aren't generally talking about.
"Should I get a puppy or a virtual pet? I'm on a budget"
"Virtual pets can be had for free and you can save money in the long run."
vs.
"Hey, I got a new puppy."
"Why did you spend money on a dog when you could have a virtual pet for free? What are you, stupid?"
Change puppy to kitten and there's no contest
You are right, it is hard for me to accept that there are actually people on this forum who collect bootlegs instead of playing the same games on a flash cart.
I kinda agree with you. The only repro I've bought is Mario Adventure from Timewalk, and I only did it because I thought the Powerpak was not compatible with it (and I didn't want to emulate). I later found out I could play it in my flashcart (doh!).
Even so, I was greatly tempted to buy some of their other games because they really put a great deal of effort in their CIB productions. I wanted a Zelda Outlands because the box looked beautiful in metal foil. Since there are no official physical releases for these hacks and many homebrews, a nice repro (with great care in the production) can be a good way to have it in collectible form.
In any case, I believe a repro of an expensive NES game is just bollocks, because the real thing really exists, and it IS possible to get. With hacks and homebrew there is no such thing (unless it's an official release like Battle Kid).
The flashcart argument to me is very strawman; instead of telling someone to buy a flashcart for 200$ to play it on "real hardware" to try to save them money... why not instead just recommend they spend all of 20$ and buy an USB controller and play them via emulator on their PC instead? That right there saves them even MORE $, doesn't it?
What current flash cart costs $200?
That seems like a price that goes back to the old Atari VCS flash carts.
Powerpak debuted at $135, and pretty sure Everdrive has stayed competitive in price.
(Not trying to nitpick, but when you slide the goalpost from $130-ish to $200, you're moving the argument from a 4-5 game threshold to an 8+ game threshold to come out ahead with the flashcart... kind of a big difference)
Still pricier then a 20$ plug-and-go USB controller, bud.
Sure, but that's not the point that anybody was trying to make with regards to flash carts vs repros.
If you want to emulate, yes, just get a decent USB controller.
If you want to play the games on the actual console, then a flashcart is the cheapest way to do play them, if you want more than a few.
The flashcart argument to me is very strawman; instead of telling someone to buy a flashcart for 200$ to play it on "real hardware" to try to save them money... why not instead just recommend they spend all of 20$ and buy an USB controller and play them via emulator on their PC instead? That right there saves them even MORE $, doesn't it?
This is a collectors website... and some of us *gasp!* ... like collecting reproduction carts. I don't think it's hard to understand, although apparently it is hard for some people to accept.
I'd also disagree they are "worthless". Do an Ebay search of "Timewalk NES or Timewalk SNES" ... and then tell me they're worthless.
At the end, everyone is entitled to spend their money however they like. But I think there are substantial flaws in that analogy. A flashcart provides 100% accurate console gaming compared to the original carts. An emulator, not so much. Simulated scanlines in most emulators look like shit, for example. Some games used hardware tricks that can be hardly emulated. And certain things about the console itself make a part of the experience. I don't like to play atari 2600 with a sega genesis controller because that is absolutely against that clunky feeling of the consle (graphics and hardware wise).
I wouldn't look down a person that prefers emulators, because money-wise it's the best option. But some hobbists like me appreciate other parts of the retro-gaming experience (including the collecting factor).
Yep.
And I know some on here think it was foolish of me to get the repo carts, but I wanted to experience the whole "what if" deal regarding how the cartridges might have looked and felt like had we gotten a proper US release. I wouldn't mind someday doing those Everdrive things for say, the rom hacks and trying out the more obscure games, but I would never consider it a substitute for owning the real cartridge...or in this case as close as you can get to the real deal.
And aren't Tales of Phantasia (I was told awhile ago that the GBA port is rather lousy), Secret of Mana (I got the first one also), and Illusion of Gaia also major blue chip RPGs for the SNES? Well I got them waiting on deck but which one should I tackle first? I'm leaning towards Tales of Phantasia for some reason.