It's never up to me to postulate what an attacker may feel. Some people just don't give a crap what you say, and nothing you can do will change their mind. It's not even up to me to tell them to stop, THEY'RE the ones who would want to stop. Same with drug addicts now that I think about it.
Look, if anyone's in deep crap, either walk away, or even talk to someone. Talking to a bully or whoever head on isn't the way to go. This is from experience. DO NOT engage in a fight unless you HAVE to. Fighting doesn't solve anything, but if your LIFE is on the line, then do it. Being called a name won't let you wake up the next day with swore muscles or broken bones.
No one's saying try to talk down a roid-rage sasquatch hell-bent on kicking your ass who happens to be tossing the N-word around.
By all means, get the hell out of there.
But if someone is casually tossing the n-word around, or calling a woman a cunt or whatever, and they did nothing to deserve that, that's when someone needs to step in. It's the only way that will stop.
It's never up to me to postulate what an attacker may feel. Some people just don't give a crap what you say, and nothing you can do will change their mind. It's not even up to me to tell them to stop, THEY'RE the ones who would want to stop. Same with drug addicts now that I think about it.
Look, if anyone's in deep crap, either walk away, or even talk to someone. Talking to a bully or whoever head on isn't the way to go. This is from experience. DO NOT engage in a fight unless you HAVE to. Fighting doesn't solve anything, but if your LIFE is on the line, then do it. Being called a name won't let you wake up the next day with swore muscles or broken bones.
No one's saying try to talk down a roid-rage sasquatch hell-bent on kicking your ass who happens to be tossing the N-word around.
By all means, get the hell out of there.
But if someone is casually tossing the n-word around, or calling a woman a cunt or whatever, and they did nothing to deserve that, that's when someone needs to step in. It's the only way that will stop.
I think we're born from two totally different worlds, man. I've been called a faggot, queerbait, and every damn name in the book. Maybe they hurt my feelings, but that's it. Still alive to this day, and none of the people who threatened me or treated me like crap are in my life right now.
Doesn't matter if you're the minority or not, anybody can get shit. The better person is one who walks away.
I think we're born from two totally different worlds, man. I've been called a faggot, queerbait, and every damn name in the book. Maybe they hurt my feelings, but that's it. Still alive to this day, and none of the people who threatened me or treated me like crap are in my life right now.
Doesn't matter if you're the minority or not, anybody can get shit. The better person is one who walks away.
But, that's just how I've lived my life.
Don't let my current location fool you. I grew up in a town in the Great Plains, so I know all too well about casual racism, homophobia, etc.
I'm not saying that you yourself need to make a fuss about someone calling you fag. If you're able to shrug it off, then you're EXACTLY the type of person who needs to speak up for others. Because often the disadvantaged people are the ones that can't just walk away, because for them there is no where to walk away to. They'll just run into someone else that'll do it.
And it doesn't have to be that they run into a stereotypical bully that wants to pick a fight. It could be a black man takes a little too long at the ATM and someone behind him calls him the N-word. That sort of thing needs to be brought to the speakers attention that it isn't acceptable.
I remember the first time I heard my dad use the n-word, and I was all "dude, wtf? Not cool." It was just me and him, but it still shocked the hell out of me. He tried to rationalize it, and I wouldn't have it. He never said it around me again, but I'm sure he used it in company more accepting. But if someone else called him out, and someone else, and someone else... he would eventually stop. Or find himself alone. Still steams me to this day that he'd use that word.
That's my main point. I'm not saying you have to be a social justice warrior avenging the wrongs. It doesn't take much effort to speak up (though it does take courage.)
The thing that is really frustrating to me about this article and the reaction to it, is that because of the perceived ridiculousness of it and perhaps it being a poor example, it undermines some of the hard work and effort out there to truly make a positive change in gender equality. What I mean by this is that there are some serious issues out there in regard to gender equality, portrayal and objectification of women in video games and media, etc., and yet people see an article like this and sometimes label everyone pushing for gender equality as 'social justice warriors' in a negative sense. Not everyone who fights for women's rights agrees with this article and I'm sure many of us would agree that this was not the strongest case that could be used by any means.
People say that others should just ignore what people talk about and not be 'so offended,' but then get upset and argumentative when they see articles like this and have discussions and arguments on social media, forums, and otherwise? Do we think everyone should be able to say what they want (within reason) or not? Are we free to speak about topics that are important to us or not? Regardless, I think we can all do a better job of not classifying and labeling every individual into stereotypical groups based on small instances of what we see or know about them.
The term 'social justice warrior' is particularly upsetting to me, because I have been called that many times, I suppose in an attempt to make it seem that I think I'm better than everyone, or that I only speak about topics and don't actually take any action, or that I care obsessively about things that "aren't important," I don't know. And I know none of this discussion is about me personally by any means, but I'm just talking about the term.
Yeah, that kind of article hurts the cause more than it helps. It doesn't have a strong foundation to lay on and only serve to people to use as ammunition against people who actually care about gender equality.
The thing that is really frustrating to me about this article and the reaction to it, is that because of the perceived ridiculousness of it and perhaps it being a poor example, it undermines some of the hard work and effort out there to truly make a positive change in gender equality. What I mean by this is that there are some serious issues out there in regard to gender equality, portrayal and objectification of women in video games and media, etc., and yet people see an article like this and sometimes label everyone pushing for gender equality as 'social justice warriors' in a negative sense. Not everyone who fights for women's rights agrees with this article and I'm sure many of us would agree that this was not the strongest case that could be used by any means.
People say that others should just ignore what people talk about and not be 'so offended,' but then get upset and argumentative when they see articles like this and have discussions and arguments on social media, forums, and otherwise? Do we think everyone should be able to say what they want (within reason) or not? Are we free to speak about topics that are important to us or not? Regardless, I think we can all do a better job of not classifying and labeling every individual into stereotypical groups based on small instances of what we see or know about them.
The term 'social justice warrior' is particularly upsetting to me, because I have been called that many times, I suppose in an attempt to make it seem that I think I'm better than everyone, or that I only speak about topics and don't actually take any action, or that I care obsessively about things that "aren't important," I don't know. And I know none of this discussion is about me personally by any means, but I'm just talking about the term.
I've always found you to be very reasonable in all of the discussion on the site in the past.
And yes, ridiculous examples undermine good work, but frankly I think its a woman's world out there today and I hear a lot of groaning about the disadvantages of being a woman but no reflections on the advantages. When was the last time you heard "happy husband, happy life?" To say nothing of the feminization of curriculum in schools, the political atmosphere in many workplaces now slanting towards skills that slant, scientifically speaking, more to female attributes, the percentage of entrants into medicine and other professions these days being female majorities, etc. Any structural inequalities biased towards men are in our parents' generations. In our own generation, women have the advantage and all you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match. Neither extreme is true of course, but that's the common, pervasive, ubiquitous portrayal.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
Yeah, fair enough, and probably a bad example on my part, but you get my point, I hope.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
Yeah, fair enough, and probably a bad example on my part, but you get my point, I hope.
One can argue that men being in a dominant position allows for those types of portrayals in media and pop culture. It's no fun to beat up on the underdog.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
Yeah, fair enough, and probably a bad example on my part, but you get my point, I hope.
One can argue that men being in a dominant position allows for those types of portrayals in media and pop culture. It's no fun to beat up on the underdog.
one can argue anything. I think that's a crock of crap personally - again, when it comes to our generation. Our parents and grandparents yes that I understand.
one can argue anything. I think that's a crock of crap personally - again, when it comes to our generation. Our parents and grandparents yes that I understand.
I don't think men (or white people, or straight people, or cisgender people) of our generation are in any danger of losing their rights or position anytime soon.
one can argue anything. I think that's a crock of crap personally - again, when it comes to our generation. Our parents and grandparents yes that I understand.
I don't think men of our generation are in any danger of losing their rights or position anytime soon.
Their position of disadvantage? I agree I am glad I had a daughter, she will have some advantages in life solely based on gender. Good for her.
Please, do point me this place where women have advantage over men so I can move there.
I am really tired to always have to have my opinion on software development whenever I have to deal with a new team, having to prove that I am more than enough experienced and capable on the field I have been working on for near 20 years again and again because I sorta have breasts. I also would love to not have to break my hand in the face of a would be attacker.
Or to not have to fully around of my surroundings 100% of the time when I am outside home.
Please, do point me this place where women have advantage over men so I can move there.
I am really tired to always have to have my opinion on software development whenever I have to deal with a new team, having to prove that I am more than enough experienced and capable on the field I have been working on for near 20 years again and again because I sorta have breasts. I also would love to not have to break my hand in the face of a would be attacker.
Or to not have to fully around of my surroundings 100% of the time when I am outside home.
Men and Women are not the same Bea. Yes there are good things and bad things that go with being a woman, and with being a man. "Sameness" of genders is mostly an intellectual conceit because there are some real differences between the genders and those should be celebrated instead of picked apart. There are also people that don't fit neatly into the traditional definitions of the two genders. "Equality" is really not the right word, in my opinion, but gender fairness, if you want to call it that, has more than arrived at least where I live. I can't speak for where you live.
Well as if the "bully" in question will always listen to reason. If we live in a perfect world were people will stop hating if you tell them, then we wouldn't have wars.
If the majority of people they encounter shame them enough, they will.
What gives a bully their power is that they face someone weaker one on one, and no one else steps in. Someone else comes in, the bully tends to retreat. Do it enough times, and they'll stop it.
This is why I confront everyone I see who tosses a cigarette out their window or flicks it away without extinguishing it. I've had to personally put out roadside fires on multiple occasions where the person who started it was nowhere to be found.
When I was a kid traffic would frequently back up at a stop light by my school and smokers would just smoke and toss their butts while waiting so roadside fires were a regular occurrence there. We once had three fires in one day and the offenders probably never even knew that they evacuated a school.
Disclaimer: I don't smoke but I fully support anyone else's right to. I think individual freedom should only end where it unjustly impacts the freedom of another individual, but I also think that you have to live with the choices you make. Disposing of your cigarette butts without infringing on the public's right to life and property is your responsibility that you accepted when you decided to light up, so you'd better have a plan for that cigarette but when you finish.
I don't remember vey much of the '80s but I distinctly remember multiple people casually tossing trash out of vehicles like no one cared. Anti-pollution/litter campaigns were in full swing. Eventually there was a full shift and now you almost NEVER see anyone do anything like that.
A few years ago a passenger in my car tossed my empty drink bottle out the window when I said something about needing a place to put my trash. He looked at me with a smug/proud look as if I was just stupid for not dealing with it in the easy/smart way he did. It caught me by complete surprise that someone with this attitude still existed, so I slammed the car into reverse and went back for the trash. The changing look on his face was priceless! Now he knows for sure that other people don't tolerate that. I guarantee you that he doesn't just toss his trash out in front of anyone now.
In the '80s cigarettes did not have nearly the same stigma as they have now. People smoking indoors, in offices, in homes with children, etc was the norm. Obviously some people complained but it wasn't enough until more people complained with science and legislation. In many places smokers can't smoke near doors/entrances and public walkways outside! It's unconscionable to just light up in a restaurant. Social stigma went a long way toward changing the behavior of the general public.
Now, SJWs and traditional advocates are two different things. Now that they exist people are going to bandy about the SJW term if they disagree with what you advocate, but most of the negativity comes from SJWs frequently taking on the causes of OTHER seemingly oppressed groups that they themselves don't belong to or fully understand. They just what to feel righteous. Some will even invent claims of oppression to feign solidarity, like Rachel Dolezal. I can totally see why that idea is obnoxious to people.
Personally, I think the absurdity in all of this is the idea that video games are socially programming our kids through subliminal messaging. I thought it was just as ridiculous when those on the opposite side of the aisle said that video games (or rather, content in them) is directly responsible for violence among youth.
No mentally stable kid is going to play Mario and think that Peach belongs in certain gender rolls just because she bakes Mario a cake or needs to be saved, just like no mentally stable kid is going to play Call of Duty and then hurt somebody.
I'm not responding to anyone directly here, but if you don't like games that are being put out in this day and age, either don't play them, or go make a better game.
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
The problem is that if you don't show that there is a limit for that shit they are pulling, they will keep stretching it further and further and then this happens:
They think their hatred is accepted by society, that they have power over you and you end up being stabbed.
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
Originally posted by: BouncekDeLemos
Originally posted by: Tulpa
Originally posted by: BouncekDeLemos
Well as if the "bully" in question will always listen to reason. If we live in a perfect world were people will stop hating if you tell them, then we wouldn't have wars.
If the majority of people they encounter shame them enough, they will.
What gives a bully their power is that they face someone weaker one on one, and no one else steps in. Someone else comes in, the bully tends to retreat. Do it enough times, and they'll stop it.
Oh nooo... not in my experience. I think I've attempted to talk to a bully (Who's also been told by other thrid partys to stop thier crap) once and got my ass kicked. lol
I dunno, but I may have grown up in a different world. Has anyone grown up in a very low class 90's public school in the south? Ever lived next to a drug addict? Ever dug through a couch to find change to get something to eat? Lost everything but the backs on their shirts? If anyone that even had it worse, people's bad words are the least on their minds.
If someone wants to hate, let them. Our forefathers and mothers fought and even died to give us a right to expression and freedom of speech, despite how good or vile it is. It is everyone's right. It's not up to me to tell what's right or wrong, especially to someone who doesn't care.
If someone hurts my feelings? Boo-fucking-hoo. Unless you've had a knife to your throat or a gun pointed to your face, words are the most trivial thing in the grand sceme or things.
As a victim of relentless bullying and ridicule as a kid, I can honestly say that standing your ground, shrugging it off, or even tattling did nothing to stop the onslaught. If I did nothing, I got bullied. If I fought back, I got beaten harder. If I tattled, you betcha I got an ass whuppin when they got out. In the schoolyard, I was the whipping boy. At the daycare, I was the whipping boy. It was a reputation that followed me throughout my childhood and caused countless anger issues when I was a teenager. Having severe ADHD my whole life (no, it doesn't disappear when you're grown) I compartmentalized it and even took my aggression out on younger kids and animals, continuing the viscious cycle. I became a social recluse and all but given up on school/life before my parents shipped me off to boading school to get the help I wasn't getting at home. Thanks to their forsight, I am able to live a fairly normal life as an adult and have a deep love and compassion for others that I did not possess as a young teen. I look to people with forgiveness in my heart rather than rage, because that's how I would want to be treated.
There is an old adage, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me..." Don't believe it. All lies.
There is only one way to stop a bully. Not discipline. Not a proper upbringing, though that certainly helps. Peer pressure is the best medicine. A force traditionally considered a negative, now turned positive. If enough people stand up and say, "that isn't cool" rather than join in or look away, the bully will feel defeated and stop. And I am so thankful public schools now host anti-bullying campaigns. I just wish they had that when I was in school.
First 18 years of my life were living hell, then I went to college where I could make friends and be myself, and everyone was cool with it, because nobody gave a shit who I was in high school...
Sorry for the rant, just couldn't leave this shit on the table without addressing it.
A few years ago a passenger in my car tossed my empty drink bottle out the window when I said something about needing a place to put my trash. He looked at me with a smug/proud look as if I was just stupid for not dealing with it in the easy/smart way he did. It caught me by complete surprise that someone with this attitude still existed, so I slammed the car into reverse and went back for the trash. The changing look on his face was priceless! Now he knows for sure that other people don't tolerate that. I guarantee you that he doesn't just toss his trash out in front of anyone now.
I take it this was a country road and not a freeway. Good lesson but thankful you didn't cause an accident...
As for the cigarette butts. I spent about a month-and-a-half working at a fast food joint as daytime maintenence, and my job was just about everything that wasn't cook/cashier/management. It was hell working in the kitchen. I was the only one on the shift who didn't smoke. My "cigarette break" was a two minute cool down in the walk-in freezer. Anyway you wouldn't believe the amount of customers who toss their cigarette butts outside the door when there was a "butt can" in plain view for this explicit purpose. But that's not what pissed me off. I'd go out back to hose down the trash cans to find the still smoking butts of my coworkers on the ground near the back exit. Customers never went back there. Anyway I finally got "let go" because I tried to hard at my job. I made sure everything was spotless and never completely finished my daily chores. And the guy my supervisor replaced me with didn't even bother to rotate the stock in the kitchen. My boss had to toss out eight crates of buns while the health inspector was in route to do a surprise inspection. Wanna know how many "expired" crates of buns they had to throw away on my watch, during the month I worked there? Zero. Anyway never going back to that hell-hole again...
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
It is okay. That was a turning point in my life, way back in 2004. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
I became far more fierce after that and sought out boxing and to make my body stronger. I can defend myself much better now.
And I can feel for you fiance. It is tough to see and even tougher to leave an abusive, violent relationship. Been there, done that. I am glad that she has you now.
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
It is okay. That was a turning point in my life, way back in 2004. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
I became far more fierce after that and sought out boxing and to make my body stronger. I can defend myself much better now.
And I can feel for you fiance. It is tough to see and even tougher to leave an abusive, violent relationship. Been there, done that. I am glad that she has you now.
It left a lot of baggage for sure. Her ex even went so far as to kill her dogs three days before Christmas by throwing tainted beef over the fence. I guess his rationale was if he couldn't have her, then she couldn't have her companions either. Autopsy revealed arsenic and stricknine (rat poison), but the cops were unable to press charges as there was no way to proove he did it. Anyway it took a very long time for her to get over the insecurities and for the first couple years we were together she had frequent nightmares.
And I know what beatings feel like from firsthand bullying experience as a child. After a while you go numb and just take it. But for those who've experienced it at the hands of family or loved ones, it must be even worse. My parents loved me deeply but they had no idea what I went through daily because I never talked about it. They would have pulled me out of that mostly unsupervised hell-hole of a daycare in a heartbeat had they known.
And as an older teen throughout adulthood (once I became a good listener), I've had enough people open up to me over the years to know that everyone battles demons of some sort. Sometimes people need someone to talk to. Free unlicensed psychotherapy. Everyone should have someone like that on their friend roster. Anyway always feel nice to get some of that stuff out.
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
The problem is that if you don't show that there is a limit for that shit they are pulling, they will keep stretching it further and further and then this happens:
They think their hatred is accepted by society, that they have power over you and you end up being stabbed.
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
Originally posted by: BouncekDeLemos
Originally posted by: Tulpa
Originally posted by: BouncekDeLemos
Well as if the "bully" in question will always listen to reason. If we live in a perfect world were people will stop hating if you tell them, then we wouldn't have wars.
If the majority of people they encounter shame them enough, they will.
What gives a bully their power is that they face someone weaker one on one, and no one else steps in. Someone else comes in, the bully tends to retreat. Do it enough times, and they'll stop it.
Oh nooo... not in my experience. I think I've attempted to talk to a bully (Who's also been told by other thrid partys to stop thier crap) once and got my ass kicked. lol
I dunno, but I may have grown up in a different world. Has anyone grown up in a very low class 90's public school in the south? Ever lived next to a drug addict? Ever dug through a couch to find change to get something to eat? Lost everything but the backs on their shirts? If anyone that even had it worse, people's bad words are the least on their minds.
If someone wants to hate, let them. Our forefathers and mothers fought and even died to give us a right to expression and freedom of speech, despite how good or vile it is. It is everyone's right. It's not up to me to tell what's right or wrong, especially to someone who doesn't care.
If someone hurts my feelings? Boo-fucking-hoo. Unless you've had a knife to your throat or a gun pointed to your face, words are the most trivial thing in the grand sceme or things.
As a victim of relentless bullying and ridicule as a kid, I can honestly say that standing your ground, shrugging it off, or even tattling did nothing to stop the onslaught. If I did nothing, I got bullied. If I fought back, I got beaten harder. If I tattled, you betcha I got an ass whuppin when they got out. In the schoolyard, I was the whipping boy. At the daycare, I was the whipping boy. It was a reputation that followed me throughout my childhood and caused countless anger issues when I was a teenager. Having severe ADHD my whole life (no, it doesn't disappear when you're grown) I compartmentalized it and even took my aggression out on younger kids and animals, continuing the viscious cycle. I became a social recluse and all but given up on school/life before my parents shipped me off to boading school to get the help I wasn't getting at home. Thanks to their forsight, I am able to live a fairly normal life as an adult and have a deep love and compassion for others that I did not possess as a young teen. I look to people with forgiveness in my heart rather than rage, because that's how I would want to be treated.
There is an old adage, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me..." Don't believe it. All lies.
There is only one way to stop a bully. Not discipline. Not a proper upbringing, though that certainly helps. Peer pressure is the best medicine. A force traditionally considered a negative, now turned positive. If enough people stand up and say, "that isn't cool" rather than join in or look away, the bully will feel defeated and stop. And I am so thankful public schools now host anti-bullying campaigns. I just wish they had that when I was in school.
First 18 years of my life were living hell, then I went to college where I could make friends and be myself, and everyone was cool with it, because nobody gave a shit who I was in high school...
Sorry for the rant, just couldn't leave this shit on the table without addressing it.
No need to feel sorry, man. By all means, address it.
Although shrugging it off worked for me, I can see now that it isn't for everyone. I do agree that no matter what, people are gonna do what they want despite the amount of words anyone says. Sure, it's good to stand out and speek up when you see someone get bullied, but no amount of "I messages" from a single person is gonna stop anyone. (Maybe you're on to something with the peer pressure thing?...)
As for the sticks and stones rule, yes the "hurt" part can be subjective. Yes, words hurt. Sometimes deeper than any visual or physical wounds. But the way I see it, there shouldn't be an extreme rule to try to abolish what people say as I feel some suggestions people make like to gear toward (Not here it seems, which I am GLAD). I've always been a firm beliver of free speech, and believe it or not, as much as I don't like when people use hate speech, it actually IS free speech.
Yes, it sucks, but all hate is an opinion. You and I can both say that our president sucks and give a very opinionated reason, no matter how negative or extreme. We can do that. Being censored is just wrong IMO. I'm not saying what bad things we say is right or even a good thing, but rather just OUR right to say it.
Knowing that, I see how words are just words, no matter how hurtful they can be, they're just coming out a mouth of someone who has their own opinion, which is their first amendment right. I've just been told that I've became "numb" because of it. No, I just woke up and found out that I just don't give a crap what people call me anymore. I chose to be "numb". Far be it for me to take their God given right away from them. A finer solution to a problem isn't always a vindictive one.
Of course, those are my thoughts, nobody has to agree or anything.
^^^. On the subject of "words are just words and all speach is protected" I think there is a fundamental difference between speech that exists in the public forum in some kind of diffuse way, and literally singling somebody out and verbally abusing them.
The former, anybody can choose to ignore and walk away from, if they are bothered or offended.
The latter is a genuine attack on a private individual, and can actually constitute real abuse.
The first amendment protections are generally about your ability to criticize the government and politicians with impunity, so that you don't fear retribution from the government.
It isn't an unlimited protection to assault individuals and expect those individuals to tolerate the abuse without some kind of response from other individuals.
That is, correcting somebody, as a private citizen, when they are engaging in accutely directed hate speech or verbal abuse/bullying, is NOT denying them their first amendment protections. (Ie they were attacking an individual to their face, not engaging in some general public protest)
A private citizen is fully within their rights to pressure other private citizens to be civilized human beings and not pieces of human garbage. (ie. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing)
It is okay. That was a turning point in my life, way back in 2004. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
I became far more fierce after that and sought out boxing and to make my body stronger. I can defend myself much better now.
And I can feel for you fiance. It is tough to see and even tougher to leave an abusive, violent relationship. Been there, done that. I am glad that she has you now.
It left a lot of baggage for sure. Her ex even went so far as to kill her dogs three days before Christmas by throwing tainted beef over the fence. I guess his rationale was if he couldn't have her, then she couldn't have her companions either. Autopsy revealed arsenic and stricknine (rat poison), but the cops were unable to press charges as there was no way to proove he did it. Anyway it took a very long time for her to get over the insecurities and for the first couple years we were together she had frequent nightmares.
And I know what beatings feel like from firsthand bullying experience as a child. After a while you go numb and just take it. But for those who've experienced it at the hands of family or loved ones, it must be even worse. My parents loved me deeply but they had no idea what I went through daily because I never talked about it. They would have pulled me out of that mostly unsupervised hell-hole of a daycare in a heartbeat had they known.
And as an older teen throughout adulthood (once I became a good listener), I've had enough people open up to me over the years to know that everyone battles demons of some sort. Sometimes people need someone to talk to. Free unlicensed psychotherapy. Everyone should have someone like that on their friend roster. Anyway always feel nice to get some of that stuff out.
Yeah, the healing process can be extremely slow. I am nearing 7 years without that bastard, and just now I am starting to be able to date men again. Even dated one for a whole week this year... Such... "huge" steps. Girls are softer and nicer to kiss anyway.
And that is true. Everyone carry their own demons, and having someone to whom you can talk about to that you know will listen helps a lot dealing with them. I have had my share of people coming to me for help and counseling and will take as many more as needed. Sometimes you just have to be someone's rock and shield.
^^^. On the subject of "words are just words and all speach is protected" I think there is a fundamental difference between speech that exists in the public forum in some kind of diffuse way, and literally singling somebody out and verbally abusing them.
The former, anybody can choose to ignore and walk away from, if they are bothered or offended.
The latter is a genuine attack on a private individual, and can actually constitute real abuse.
The first amendment protections are generally about your ability to criticize the government and politicians with impunity, so that you don't fear retribution from the government.
It isn't an unlimited protection to assault individuals and expect those individuals to tolerate the abuse without some kind of response from other individuals.
That is, correcting somebody, as a private citizen, when they are engaging in accutely directed hate speech or verbal abuse/bullying, is NOT denying them their first amendment protections. (Ie they were attacking an individual to their face, not engaging in some general public protest)
A private citizen is fully within their rights to pressure other private citizens to be civilized human beings and not pieces of human garbage. (ie. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing)
Many people will intentionally misconstrue justifiable criticism as hate/harassment so it's a slippery slope to legislate.
There's a big difference between constructive criticism and being an asshole.
Take the Serinity Prayer for instance. We used to recite this at meals during the 2.5 months I spent at an outdoor treatment camp.
God grant me serenity,
To accept te things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Hate speech would be an example of belittling someone based upon "things I cannot change" such as sexual preference, weight, gender, race, etc...
Constructive criticism would be making suggestion that an individual "change things he or she can," such as certain fashion, behavior, or lifestyle choices.
And I think even a tiny grain of "wisdom" would be all it takes to understand the difference. "I respectfully disagree with your opinion" is totally different from "You are a/an [insert expletive or slur here]"
And I think even a tiny grain of "wisdom" would be all it takes to understand the difference. "I respectfully disagree with your opinion" is totally different from "You are a/an [insert expletive or slur here]"
This is the key thing that drives me nuts about Social Justice Warriors. Having an opinion and respectfully disagreeing is one matter, but trying to silence and belittle the other side, even threatening them with physical violence because they don't share mutual views is completely unacceptable and frankly, unnatural.
And to me, that's the determining factor for the label. I don't care what somebody's views are so long as they don't try to silence others, verbally abuse someone over them, or threaten physical violence.
Comments
It's never up to me to postulate what an attacker may feel. Some people just don't give a crap what you say, and nothing you can do will change their mind. It's not even up to me to tell them to stop, THEY'RE the ones who would want to stop. Same with drug addicts now that I think about it.
Look, if anyone's in deep crap, either walk away, or even talk to someone. Talking to a bully or whoever head on isn't the way to go. This is from experience. DO NOT engage in a fight unless you HAVE to. Fighting doesn't solve anything, but if your LIFE is on the line, then do it. Being called a name won't let you wake up the next day with swore muscles or broken bones.
No one's saying try to talk down a roid-rage sasquatch hell-bent on kicking your ass who happens to be tossing the N-word around.
By all means, get the hell out of there.
But if someone is casually tossing the n-word around, or calling a woman a cunt or whatever, and they did nothing to deserve that, that's when someone needs to step in. It's the only way that will stop.
It's never up to me to postulate what an attacker may feel. Some people just don't give a crap what you say, and nothing you can do will change their mind. It's not even up to me to tell them to stop, THEY'RE the ones who would want to stop. Same with drug addicts now that I think about it.
Look, if anyone's in deep crap, either walk away, or even talk to someone. Talking to a bully or whoever head on isn't the way to go. This is from experience. DO NOT engage in a fight unless you HAVE to. Fighting doesn't solve anything, but if your LIFE is on the line, then do it. Being called a name won't let you wake up the next day with swore muscles or broken bones.
No one's saying try to talk down a roid-rage sasquatch hell-bent on kicking your ass who happens to be tossing the N-word around.
By all means, get the hell out of there.
But if someone is casually tossing the n-word around, or calling a woman a cunt or whatever, and they did nothing to deserve that, that's when someone needs to step in. It's the only way that will stop.
I think we're born from two totally different worlds, man. I've been called a faggot, queerbait, and every damn name in the book. Maybe they hurt my feelings, but that's it. Still alive to this day, and none of the people who threatened me or treated me like crap are in my life right now.
Doesn't matter if you're the minority or not, anybody can get shit. The better person is one who walks away.
But, that's just how I've lived my life.
I think we're born from two totally different worlds, man. I've been called a faggot, queerbait, and every damn name in the book. Maybe they hurt my feelings, but that's it. Still alive to this day, and none of the people who threatened me or treated me like crap are in my life right now.
Doesn't matter if you're the minority or not, anybody can get shit. The better person is one who walks away.
But, that's just how I've lived my life.
Don't let my current location fool you. I grew up in a town in the Great Plains, so I know all too well about casual racism, homophobia, etc.
I'm not saying that you yourself need to make a fuss about someone calling you fag. If you're able to shrug it off, then you're EXACTLY the type of person who needs to speak up for others. Because often the disadvantaged people are the ones that can't just walk away, because for them there is no where to walk away to. They'll just run into someone else that'll do it.
And it doesn't have to be that they run into a stereotypical bully that wants to pick a fight. It could be a black man takes a little too long at the ATM and someone behind him calls him the N-word. That sort of thing needs to be brought to the speakers attention that it isn't acceptable.
I remember the first time I heard my dad use the n-word, and I was all "dude, wtf? Not cool." It was just me and him, but it still shocked the hell out of me. He tried to rationalize it, and I wouldn't have it. He never said it around me again, but I'm sure he used it in company more accepting. But if someone else called him out, and someone else, and someone else... he would eventually stop. Or find himself alone. Still steams me to this day that he'd use that word.
That's my main point. I'm not saying you have to be a social justice warrior avenging the wrongs. It doesn't take much effort to speak up (though it does take courage.)
People say that others should just ignore what people talk about and not be 'so offended,' but then get upset and argumentative when they see articles like this and have discussions and arguments on social media, forums, and otherwise? Do we think everyone should be able to say what they want (within reason) or not? Are we free to speak about topics that are important to us or not? Regardless, I think we can all do a better job of not classifying and labeling every individual into stereotypical groups based on small instances of what we see or know about them.
The term 'social justice warrior' is particularly upsetting to me, because I have been called that many times, I suppose in an attempt to make it seem that I think I'm better than everyone, or that I only speak about topics and don't actually take any action, or that I care obsessively about things that "aren't important," I don't know. And I know none of this discussion is about me personally by any means, but I'm just talking about the term.
Yeah, that kind of article hurts the cause more than it helps. It doesn't have a strong foundation to lay on and only serve to people to use as ammunition against people who actually care about gender equality.
The thing that is really frustrating to me about this article and the reaction to it, is that because of the perceived ridiculousness of it and perhaps it being a poor example, it undermines some of the hard work and effort out there to truly make a positive change in gender equality. What I mean by this is that there are some serious issues out there in regard to gender equality, portrayal and objectification of women in video games and media, etc., and yet people see an article like this and sometimes label everyone pushing for gender equality as 'social justice warriors' in a negative sense. Not everyone who fights for women's rights agrees with this article and I'm sure many of us would agree that this was not the strongest case that could be used by any means.
People say that others should just ignore what people talk about and not be 'so offended,' but then get upset and argumentative when they see articles like this and have discussions and arguments on social media, forums, and otherwise? Do we think everyone should be able to say what they want (within reason) or not? Are we free to speak about topics that are important to us or not? Regardless, I think we can all do a better job of not classifying and labeling every individual into stereotypical groups based on small instances of what we see or know about them.
The term 'social justice warrior' is particularly upsetting to me, because I have been called that many times, I suppose in an attempt to make it seem that I think I'm better than everyone, or that I only speak about topics and don't actually take any action, or that I care obsessively about things that "aren't important," I don't know. And I know none of this discussion is about me personally by any means, but I'm just talking about the term.
I've always found you to be very reasonable in all of the discussion on the site in the past.
And yes, ridiculous examples undermine good work, but frankly I think its a woman's world out there today and I hear a lot of groaning about the disadvantages of being a woman but no reflections on the advantages. When was the last time you heard "happy husband, happy life?" To say nothing of the feminization of curriculum in schools, the political atmosphere in many workplaces now slanting towards skills that slant, scientifically speaking, more to female attributes, the percentage of entrants into medicine and other professions these days being female majorities, etc. Any structural inequalities biased towards men are in our parents' generations. In our own generation, women have the advantage and all you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match. Neither extreme is true of course, but that's the common, pervasive, ubiquitous portrayal.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
Yeah, fair enough, and probably a bad example on my part, but you get my point, I hope.
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
Yeah, fair enough, and probably a bad example on my part, but you get my point, I hope.
One can argue that men being in a dominant position allows for those types of portrayals in media and pop culture. It's no fun to beat up on the underdog.
Originally posted by: Tulpa
Originally posted by: Bronty
Originally posted by: teh lurv
Originally posted by: Bronty
In our own generation, women have the advantage and you have to do is to watch the simpsons, or a soap commercial, or to generally have your wits about you to see that the family situations in the media are presented largely as dad = bumbling idiot who makes of a mess of everything, mom = patience of a saint with wisdom to match.
Or those couples could be interperted it another way: A smart woman is equal to an incompetant man. Sitcoms like in Home Improvement or the Simpsons do not necessarily promote a progressive portrayal of women.
Yeah, fair enough, and probably a bad example on my part, but you get my point, I hope.
One can argue that men being in a dominant position allows for those types of portrayals in media and pop culture. It's no fun to beat up on the underdog.
one can argue anything. I think that's a crock of crap personally - again, when it comes to our generation. Our parents and grandparents yes that I understand.
one can argue anything. I think that's a crock of crap personally - again, when it comes to our generation. Our parents and grandparents yes that I understand.
I don't think men (or white people, or straight people, or cisgender people) of our generation are in any danger of losing their rights or position anytime soon.
Originally posted by: Tulpa
Originally posted by: Bronty
one can argue anything. I think that's a crock of crap personally - again, when it comes to our generation. Our parents and grandparents yes that I understand.
I don't think men of our generation are in any danger of losing their rights or position anytime soon.
Their position of disadvantage? I agree I am glad I had a daughter, she will have some advantages in life solely based on gender. Good for her.
I am really tired to always have to have my opinion on software development whenever I have to deal with a new team, having to prove that I am more than enough experienced and capable on the field I have been working on for near 20 years again and again because I sorta have breasts. I also would love to not have to break my hand in the face of a would be attacker.
Or to not have to fully around of my surroundings 100% of the time when I am outside home.
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
Please, do point me this place where women have advantage over men so I can move there.
I am really tired to always have to have my opinion on software development whenever I have to deal with a new team, having to prove that I am more than enough experienced and capable on the field I have been working on for near 20 years again and again because I sorta have breasts. I also would love to not have to break my hand in the face of a would be attacker.
Or to not have to fully around of my surroundings 100% of the time when I am outside home.
Men and Women are not the same Bea. Yes there are good things and bad things that go with being a woman, and with being a man. "Sameness" of genders is mostly an intellectual conceit because there are some real differences between the genders and those should be celebrated instead of picked apart. There are also people that don't fit neatly into the traditional definitions of the two genders. "Equality" is really not the right word, in my opinion, but gender fairness, if you want to call it that, has more than arrived at least where I live. I can't speak for where you live.
Well as if the "bully" in question will always listen to reason. If we live in a perfect world were people will stop hating if you tell them, then we wouldn't have wars.
If the majority of people they encounter shame them enough, they will.
What gives a bully their power is that they face someone weaker one on one, and no one else steps in. Someone else comes in, the bully tends to retreat. Do it enough times, and they'll stop it.
This is why I confront everyone I see who tosses a cigarette out their window or flicks it away without extinguishing it. I've had to personally put out roadside fires on multiple occasions where the person who started it was nowhere to be found.
When I was a kid traffic would frequently back up at a stop light by my school and smokers would just smoke and toss their butts while waiting so roadside fires were a regular occurrence there. We once had three fires in one day and the offenders probably never even knew that they evacuated a school.
Disclaimer: I don't smoke but I fully support anyone else's right to. I think individual freedom should only end where it unjustly impacts the freedom of another individual, but I also think that you have to live with the choices you make. Disposing of your cigarette butts without infringing on the public's right to life and property is your responsibility that you accepted when you decided to light up, so you'd better have a plan for that cigarette but when you finish.
I don't remember vey much of the '80s but I distinctly remember multiple people casually tossing trash out of vehicles like no one cared. Anti-pollution/litter campaigns were in full swing. Eventually there was a full shift and now you almost NEVER see anyone do anything like that.
A few years ago a passenger in my car tossed my empty drink bottle out the window when I said something about needing a place to put my trash. He looked at me with a smug/proud look as if I was just stupid for not dealing with it in the easy/smart way he did. It caught me by complete surprise that someone with this attitude still existed, so I slammed the car into reverse and went back for the trash. The changing look on his face was priceless! Now he knows for sure that other people don't tolerate that. I guarantee you that he doesn't just toss his trash out in front of anyone now.
In the '80s cigarettes did not have nearly the same stigma as they have now. People smoking indoors, in offices, in homes with children, etc was the norm. Obviously some people complained but it wasn't enough until more people complained with science and legislation. In many places smokers can't smoke near doors/entrances and public walkways outside! It's unconscionable to just light up in a restaurant. Social stigma went a long way toward changing the behavior of the general public.
Now, SJWs and traditional advocates are two different things. Now that they exist people are going to bandy about the SJW term if they disagree with what you advocate, but most of the negativity comes from SJWs frequently taking on the causes of OTHER seemingly oppressed groups that they themselves don't belong to or fully understand. They just what to feel righteous. Some will even invent claims of oppression to feign solidarity, like Rachel Dolezal. I can totally see why that idea is obnoxious to people.
No mentally stable kid is going to play Mario and think that Peach belongs in certain gender rolls just because she bakes Mario a cake or needs to be saved, just like no mentally stable kid is going to play Call of Duty and then hurt somebody.
I'm not responding to anyone directly here, but if you don't like games that are being put out in this day and age, either don't play them, or go make a better game.
The problem is that if you don't show that there is a limit for that shit they are pulling, they will keep stretching it further and further and then this happens:
They think their hatred is accepted by society, that they have power over you and you end up being stabbed.
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
Well as if the "bully" in question will always listen to reason. If we live in a perfect world were people will stop hating if you tell them, then we wouldn't have wars.
If the majority of people they encounter shame them enough, they will.
What gives a bully their power is that they face someone weaker one on one, and no one else steps in. Someone else comes in, the bully tends to retreat. Do it enough times, and they'll stop it.
Oh nooo... not in my experience. I think I've attempted to talk to a bully (Who's also been told by other thrid partys to stop thier crap) once and got my ass kicked. lol
I dunno, but I may have grown up in a different world. Has anyone grown up in a very low class 90's public school in the south? Ever lived next to a drug addict? Ever dug through a couch to find change to get something to eat? Lost everything but the backs on their shirts? If anyone that even had it worse, people's bad words are the least on their minds.
If someone wants to hate, let them. Our forefathers and mothers fought and even died to give us a right to expression and freedom of speech, despite how good or vile it is. It is everyone's right. It's not up to me to tell what's right or wrong, especially to someone who doesn't care.
If someone hurts my feelings? Boo-fucking-hoo. Unless you've had a knife to your throat or a gun pointed to your face, words are the most trivial thing in the grand sceme or things.
As a victim of relentless bullying and ridicule as a kid, I can honestly say that standing your ground, shrugging it off, or even tattling did nothing to stop the onslaught. If I did nothing, I got bullied. If I fought back, I got beaten harder. If I tattled, you betcha I got an ass whuppin when they got out. In the schoolyard, I was the whipping boy. At the daycare, I was the whipping boy. It was a reputation that followed me throughout my childhood and caused countless anger issues when I was a teenager. Having severe ADHD my whole life (no, it doesn't disappear when you're grown) I compartmentalized it and even took my aggression out on younger kids and animals, continuing the viscious cycle. I became a social recluse and all but given up on school/life before my parents shipped me off to boading school to get the help I wasn't getting at home. Thanks to their forsight, I am able to live a fairly normal life as an adult and have a deep love and compassion for others that I did not possess as a young teen. I look to people with forgiveness in my heart rather than rage, because that's how I would want to be treated.
There is an old adage, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me..." Don't believe it. All lies.
There is only one way to stop a bully. Not discipline. Not a proper upbringing, though that certainly helps. Peer pressure is the best medicine. A force traditionally considered a negative, now turned positive. If enough people stand up and say, "that isn't cool" rather than join in or look away, the bully will feel defeated and stop. And I am so thankful public schools now host anti-bullying campaigns. I just wish they had that when I was in school.
First 18 years of my life were living hell, then I went to college where I could make friends and be myself, and everyone was cool with it, because nobody gave a shit who I was in high school...
Sorry for the rant, just couldn't leave this shit on the table without addressing it.
A few years ago a passenger in my car tossed my empty drink bottle out the window when I said something about needing a place to put my trash. He looked at me with a smug/proud look as if I was just stupid for not dealing with it in the easy/smart way he did. It caught me by complete surprise that someone with this attitude still existed, so I slammed the car into reverse and went back for the trash. The changing look on his face was priceless! Now he knows for sure that other people don't tolerate that. I guarantee you that he doesn't just toss his trash out in front of anyone now.
I take it this was a country road and not a freeway. Good lesson but thankful you didn't cause an accident...
As for the cigarette butts. I spent about a month-and-a-half working at a fast food joint as daytime maintenence, and my job was just about everything that wasn't cook/cashier/management. It was hell working in the kitchen. I was the only one on the shift who didn't smoke. My "cigarette break" was a two minute cool down in the walk-in freezer. Anyway you wouldn't believe the amount of customers who toss their cigarette butts outside the door when there was a "butt can" in plain view for this explicit purpose. But that's not what pissed me off. I'd go out back to hose down the trash cans to find the still smoking butts of my coworkers on the ground near the back exit. Customers never went back there. Anyway I finally got "let go" because I tried to hard at my job. I made sure everything was spotless and never completely finished my daily chores. And the guy my supervisor replaced me with didn't even bother to rotate the stock in the kitchen. My boss had to toss out eight crates of buns while the health inspector was in route to do a surprise inspection. Wanna know how many "expired" crates of buns they had to throw away on my watch, during the month I worked there? Zero. Anyway never going back to that hell-hole again...
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
It is okay. That was a turning point in my life, way back in 2004. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
I became far more fierce after that and sought out boxing and to make my body stronger. I can defend myself much better now.
And I can feel for you fiance. It is tough to see and even tougher to leave an abusive, violent relationship. Been there, done that. I am glad that she has you now.
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
It is okay. That was a turning point in my life, way back in 2004. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
I became far more fierce after that and sought out boxing and to make my body stronger. I can defend myself much better now.
And I can feel for you fiance. It is tough to see and even tougher to leave an abusive, violent relationship. Been there, done that. I am glad that she has you now.
It left a lot of baggage for sure. Her ex even went so far as to kill her dogs three days before Christmas by throwing tainted beef over the fence. I guess his rationale was if he couldn't have her, then she couldn't have her companions either. Autopsy revealed arsenic and stricknine (rat poison), but the cops were unable to press charges as there was no way to proove he did it. Anyway it took a very long time for her to get over the insecurities and for the first couple years we were together she had frequent nightmares.
And I know what beatings feel like from firsthand bullying experience as a child. After a while you go numb and just take it. But for those who've experienced it at the hands of family or loved ones, it must be even worse. My parents loved me deeply but they had no idea what I went through daily because I never talked about it. They would have pulled me out of that mostly unsupervised hell-hole of a daycare in a heartbeat had they known.
And as an older teen throughout adulthood (once I became a good listener), I've had enough people open up to me over the years to know that everyone battles demons of some sort. Sometimes people need someone to talk to. Free unlicensed psychotherapy. Everyone should have someone like that on their friend roster. Anyway always feel nice to get some of that stuff out.
Wow, this thread has revealed a lot of deep cuts...
The problem is that if you don't show that there is a limit for that shit they are pulling, they will keep stretching it further and further and then this happens:
They think their hatred is accepted by society, that they have power over you and you end up being stabbed.
Wow. My condolenses to you.
My fiance once got battered by an ex (he even threw her down a flight of stairs, cracking her ribs). And she refused to reveal to the doctors who caused her injury (and they rightly assumed by the presence of older bruises that it was not merely a "fall" that caused it). Her ex is still a free man to this day because noone testified against him.
And I can honestly say in the thirteen years I've known and loved her, I've never once touched her in a violent way...
Well as if the "bully" in question will always listen to reason. If we live in a perfect world were people will stop hating if you tell them, then we wouldn't have wars.
If the majority of people they encounter shame them enough, they will.
What gives a bully their power is that they face someone weaker one on one, and no one else steps in. Someone else comes in, the bully tends to retreat. Do it enough times, and they'll stop it.
Oh nooo... not in my experience. I think I've attempted to talk to a bully (Who's also been told by other thrid partys to stop thier crap) once and got my ass kicked. lol
I dunno, but I may have grown up in a different world. Has anyone grown up in a very low class 90's public school in the south? Ever lived next to a drug addict? Ever dug through a couch to find change to get something to eat? Lost everything but the backs on their shirts? If anyone that even had it worse, people's bad words are the least on their minds.
If someone wants to hate, let them. Our forefathers and mothers fought and even died to give us a right to expression and freedom of speech, despite how good or vile it is. It is everyone's right. It's not up to me to tell what's right or wrong, especially to someone who doesn't care.
If someone hurts my feelings? Boo-fucking-hoo. Unless you've had a knife to your throat or a gun pointed to your face, words are the most trivial thing in the grand sceme or things.
As a victim of relentless bullying and ridicule as a kid, I can honestly say that standing your ground, shrugging it off, or even tattling did nothing to stop the onslaught. If I did nothing, I got bullied. If I fought back, I got beaten harder. If I tattled, you betcha I got an ass whuppin when they got out. In the schoolyard, I was the whipping boy. At the daycare, I was the whipping boy. It was a reputation that followed me throughout my childhood and caused countless anger issues when I was a teenager. Having severe ADHD my whole life (no, it doesn't disappear when you're grown) I compartmentalized it and even took my aggression out on younger kids and animals, continuing the viscious cycle. I became a social recluse and all but given up on school/life before my parents shipped me off to boading school to get the help I wasn't getting at home. Thanks to their forsight, I am able to live a fairly normal life as an adult and have a deep love and compassion for others that I did not possess as a young teen. I look to people with forgiveness in my heart rather than rage, because that's how I would want to be treated.
There is an old adage, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me..." Don't believe it. All lies.
There is only one way to stop a bully. Not discipline. Not a proper upbringing, though that certainly helps. Peer pressure is the best medicine. A force traditionally considered a negative, now turned positive. If enough people stand up and say, "that isn't cool" rather than join in or look away, the bully will feel defeated and stop. And I am so thankful public schools now host anti-bullying campaigns. I just wish they had that when I was in school.
First 18 years of my life were living hell, then I went to college where I could make friends and be myself, and everyone was cool with it, because nobody gave a shit who I was in high school...
Sorry for the rant, just couldn't leave this shit on the table without addressing it.
No need to feel sorry, man. By all means, address it.
Although shrugging it off worked for me, I can see now that it isn't for everyone. I do agree that no matter what, people are gonna do what they want despite the amount of words anyone says. Sure, it's good to stand out and speek up when you see someone get bullied, but no amount of "I messages" from a single person is gonna stop anyone. (Maybe you're on to something with the peer pressure thing?...)
As for the sticks and stones rule, yes the "hurt" part can be subjective. Yes, words hurt. Sometimes deeper than any visual or physical wounds. But the way I see it, there shouldn't be an extreme rule to try to abolish what people say as I feel some suggestions people make like to gear toward (Not here it seems, which I am GLAD). I've always been a firm beliver of free speech, and believe it or not, as much as I don't like when people use hate speech, it actually IS free speech.
Yes, it sucks, but all hate is an opinion. You and I can both say that our president sucks and give a very opinionated reason, no matter how negative or extreme. We can do that. Being censored is just wrong IMO. I'm not saying what bad things we say is right or even a good thing, but rather just OUR right to say it.
Knowing that, I see how words are just words, no matter how hurtful they can be, they're just coming out a mouth of someone who has their own opinion, which is their first amendment right. I've just been told that I've became "numb" because of it. No, I just woke up and found out that I just don't give a crap what people call me anymore. I chose to be "numb". Far be it for me to take their God given right away from them. A finer solution to a problem isn't always a vindictive one.
Of course, those are my thoughts, nobody has to agree or anything.
The former, anybody can choose to ignore and walk away from, if they are bothered or offended.
The latter is a genuine attack on a private individual, and can actually constitute real abuse.
The first amendment protections are generally about your ability to criticize the government and politicians with impunity, so that you don't fear retribution from the government.
It isn't an unlimited protection to assault individuals and expect those individuals to tolerate the abuse without some kind of response from other individuals.
That is, correcting somebody, as a private citizen, when they are engaging in accutely directed hate speech or verbal abuse/bullying, is NOT denying them their first amendment protections. (Ie they were attacking an individual to their face, not engaging in some general public protest)
A private citizen is fully within their rights to pressure other private citizens to be civilized human beings and not pieces of human garbage. (ie. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing)
It is okay. That was a turning point in my life, way back in 2004. As the old saying goes, what doesn't kill you make you stronger.
I became far more fierce after that and sought out boxing and to make my body stronger. I can defend myself much better now.
And I can feel for you fiance. It is tough to see and even tougher to leave an abusive, violent relationship. Been there, done that. I am glad that she has you now.
It left a lot of baggage for sure. Her ex even went so far as to kill her dogs three days before Christmas by throwing tainted beef over the fence. I guess his rationale was if he couldn't have her, then she couldn't have her companions either. Autopsy revealed arsenic and stricknine (rat poison), but the cops were unable to press charges as there was no way to proove he did it. Anyway it took a very long time for her to get over the insecurities and for the first couple years we were together she had frequent nightmares.
And I know what beatings feel like from firsthand bullying experience as a child. After a while you go numb and just take it. But for those who've experienced it at the hands of family or loved ones, it must be even worse. My parents loved me deeply but they had no idea what I went through daily because I never talked about it. They would have pulled me out of that mostly unsupervised hell-hole of a daycare in a heartbeat had they known.
And as an older teen throughout adulthood (once I became a good listener), I've had enough people open up to me over the years to know that everyone battles demons of some sort. Sometimes people need someone to talk to. Free unlicensed psychotherapy. Everyone should have someone like that on their friend roster. Anyway always feel nice to get some of that stuff out.
Yeah, the healing process can be extremely slow. I am nearing 7 years without that bastard, and just now I am starting to be able to date men again. Even dated one for a whole week this year... Such... "huge" steps. Girls are softer and nicer to kiss anyway.
And that is true. Everyone carry their own demons, and having someone to whom you can talk about to that you know will listen helps a lot dealing with them. I have had my share of people coming to me for help and counseling and will take as many more as needed. Sometimes you just have to be someone's rock and shield.
^^^. On the subject of "words are just words and all speach is protected" I think there is a fundamental difference between speech that exists in the public forum in some kind of diffuse way, and literally singling somebody out and verbally abusing them.
The former, anybody can choose to ignore and walk away from, if they are bothered or offended.
The latter is a genuine attack on a private individual, and can actually constitute real abuse.
The first amendment protections are generally about your ability to criticize the government and politicians with impunity, so that you don't fear retribution from the government.
It isn't an unlimited protection to assault individuals and expect those individuals to tolerate the abuse without some kind of response from other individuals.
That is, correcting somebody, as a private citizen, when they are engaging in accutely directed hate speech or verbal abuse/bullying, is NOT denying them their first amendment protections. (Ie they were attacking an individual to their face, not engaging in some general public protest)
A private citizen is fully within their rights to pressure other private citizens to be civilized human beings and not pieces of human garbage. (ie. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing)
Many people will intentionally misconstrue justifiable criticism as hate/harassment so it's a slippery slope to legislate.
Take the Serinity Prayer for instance. We used to recite this at meals during the 2.5 months I spent at an outdoor treatment camp.
God grant me serenity,
To accept te things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Hate speech would be an example of belittling someone based upon "things I cannot change" such as sexual preference, weight, gender, race, etc...
Constructive criticism would be making suggestion that an individual "change things he or she can," such as certain fashion, behavior, or lifestyle choices.
And I think even a tiny grain of "wisdom" would be all it takes to understand the difference. "I respectfully disagree with your opinion" is totally different from "You are a/an [insert expletive or slur here]"
And I think even a tiny grain of "wisdom" would be all it takes to understand the difference. "I respectfully disagree with your opinion" is totally different from "You are a/an [insert expletive or slur here]"
This is the key thing that drives me nuts about Social Justice Warriors. Having an opinion and respectfully disagreeing is one matter, but trying to silence and belittle the other side, even threatening them with physical violence because they don't share mutual views is completely unacceptable and frankly, unnatural.
And to me, that's the determining factor for the label. I don't care what somebody's views are so long as they don't try to silence others, verbally abuse someone over them, or threaten physical violence.