I agree that this is not a problem unique to one religion; though my issue is when the extremists tell me that I need to give up my views in order to "Coexist"
Which views are you being asked to abandon to coexist?
Better yet, ask a Native American what they think of government oversight of their land. Hunting licenses, taxation, etc. Of course, it was really their fault not to organize and throw off the foreign invaders en masse.
Damn them getting smallpox from the Europeans and not having an immunity, leading to them getting wiped out by about 95%.
Smallpox was but one of the diseases - and a 95% total (of all the various diseases) elimination is likely more than a tad high. In NA (exlusive of what is now Mexico) it was likely 40-50% - likely quite a bit higher in Mexico, CA and SA due to the much much higher density of the populations. The exact figures will never be known since we lack any real statistics - just guestimates of original populations and who died when due to what.
On the other hand the Europeans likely got syphilis and certainly got tobacco from the New World.
We might not know the exact amount, but it was very devastating. It was probably the most significant event in North American history, but no one talks about it.
How significant?
Well, Europeans also tried to colonize India, Africa and China/southeast Asia. Why aren't European descendents the majorities there? Because they could never get a foothold due to too many of the native populations already occupying the land and resources. North America, with its devastated native population, was a free-for-all for European settlers.
On the other hand the Europeans likely got syphilis and certainly got tobacco from the New World.
Along with potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and a range of other things.
ortrayal
It's really interesting how short a history a lot of "traditional" dishes in other countries really have.
And they got horses and guns from the west. Without those items the high plains culture (which is the most widely (if also widely inaccurate*) portrayal of NA Indians in popular culture) could never have existed.
*My money is on Little Big Man for a fairly accurate portrayal (for non documentary stuff) of the high plains culture - but that is probably just me.
My wife's extended family is Catholic. During our wedding they basically agreed to shut their mouths over how outraged they were about everyone and everything, for her sake
We might not know the exact amount, but it was very devastating. It was probably the most significant event in North American history, but no one talks about it.
How significant?
Well, Europeans also tried to colonize India, Africa and China/southeast Asia. Why aren't European descendents the majorities there? Because they could never get a foothold due to too many of the native populations already occupying the land and resources. North America, with its devastated native population, was a free-for-all for European settlers.
That's not really a fair comparison, at all.
While nobody would deny that Native Americans had a society and rich culture, prior to our arrival... they were not a particularly vast population to begin with.
(there was an article I read in the last year about just how few native Americans lived in the Chesapeake Bay area at the time the English arrived -- it was a MUCH MUCH smaller number than I would have thought)
Nor did they have steel or gunpowder...
India and China had "real" (i.e. defensible) cities, vast populations, steel, large organized militiaries, European-levels of agriculture and animal husbandry, etc.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Okay, then W and Cheney created Obama, and Trump is creating the monster that is to be unleashed in 2020 or 2024. Who needs functioning government when we can have festering rivalry instead.
While nobody would deny that Native Americans had a society and rich culture, prior to our arrival... they were not a particularly vast population to begin with.
Nor did they have steel or gunpowder...
India and China had "real" (i.e. defensible) cities, vast populations, steel, large organized militiaries, European-levels of agriculture and animal husbandry, etc.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
The European forces still rolled over them despite their efforts to resist. China was forced to be subserviant to European interests (Opium Wars), and India was owned outright by a British trade corporation (The East India Company) and the British Empire. Plenty of aristrocrats set up shop there, but the mass immigration of European commoners never took foothold, because there were just too many people already living there. Eventually the European rule was divested.
Estimates for NA population prior to European arrivals range from 25 million low end to 100 million high end. The population was largely considered comparable to Europe's population at the same time. A lot of people died in the years following European settlement in NA. I would also argue the Aztecs and Incas had proper, defensible cities.
We might not know the exact amount, but it was very devastating. It was probably the most significant event in North American history, but no one talks about it.
How significant?
Well, Europeans also tried to colonize India, Africa and China/southeast Asia. Why aren't European descendents the majorities there? Because they could never get a foothold due to too many of the native populations already occupying the land and resources. North America, with its devastated native population, was a free-for-all for European settlers.
Even without the diseases NA (again exclusive of what is now Mexico) NA was never very densely populated (indeed the great plains were virtually unpopulated and would remain so until the adoption of firearms and horses - the portions of the Sioux nation that wound up there only did so after being pushed there by the Ojibway (who got guns from the French before the Sioux got them) and even without the diseases would not have presented much of a serious obstacle to really determined settlement. Asia, Africa and India already had large native populations and the goal was to create situations where those popluations could be economically exploited. Aside from a few colonies in Africa, there never was much of an intent to create traditional colonies where really large groups of newcomers could create their own population base in those areas.
Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Dude, what does any of that have to do with Trumps tax returns? No offense or anything, but that is all irrelevant information to the topic. He should show his tax returns. There is no reason for him no to, unless he is afraid of people seeing something. Every president shows their tax returns. I'm sure they will be edited to look squeeky clean, but he doesn't even bother to do that. He thinks he is above every other president and thinks he doesn't need to show them at all, which is BS IMO.
And saying other 1%ers fudge their tax returns, so everything is cool, is not an excuse. Again IMO.
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Okay, then W and Cheney created Obama, and Trump is creating the monster that is to be unleashed in 2020 or 2024. Who needs functioning government when we can have festering rivalry instead.
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
The European forces still rolled over them despite their efforts to resist. China was forced to be subserviant to European interests (Opium Wars), and India was owned outright by a British trade corporation (The East India Company) and the British Empire. Plenty of aristrocrats set up shop there, but the mass immigration of European commoners never took foothold, because there were just too many people already living there. Eventually the European rule was divested.
Estimates for NA population prior to European arrivals range from 25 million low end to 100 million high end. The population was largely considered comparable to Europe's population at the same time. A lot of people died in the years following European settlement in NA. I would also argue the Aztecs and Incas had proper, defensible cities.
This is really a question of what part of the Americas you're referring to.
My comment about low relative population is about the continental USA.
There were much larger populations in Central and South America, and that wasn't what I was referring to.
If anything, central and south america look a lot more like your India/China/Africa comparison, in that the local indigenous populations maintained significan ethnic majority.
In terms of Aztec/Incan cities... from what I recall of my history of the region, the relatively small number of Spanish conquistadors (something like 100) mustered a HUGE army of local tribes that had been oppressed and abused by the Aztec empire, and won their war with local manpower.
But irrespective, the people of that region weren't "wiped out" in quite the same way that North American natives were.
(as clearly evidenced by the genetic blend of central and south americans, today)
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Dude, what does any of that have to do with Trumps tax returns? No offense or anything, but that is all irrelevant information to the topic. He should show his tax returns. There is no reason for him no to, unless he is afraid of people seeing something. Every president shows their tax returns. I'm sure they will be edited to look squeeky clean, but he doesn't even bother to do that. He thinks he is above every other president and thinks he doesn't need to show them at all, which is BS IMO.
And saying other 1%ers fudge their tax returns, so everything is cool, is not an excuse. Again IMO.
We are just going to go back and forth man
If I had to guess Trump hasn’t released his tax returns because he might not be as rich as he claims to be.
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Okay, then W and Cheney created Obama, and Trump is creating the monster that is to be unleashed in 2020 or 2024. Who needs functioning government when we can have festering rivalry instead.
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
Obama's campaign promises were getting us out of Aghanistan and Iraq, ending torture, repealing tax cuts on the rich, closing GitMo, etc...
I really feel like Conks don't want to see how familiar this all feels..
This is really a question of what part of the Americas you're referring to.
My comment about low relative population is about the continental USA.
There were much larger populations in Central and South America, and that wasn't what I was referring to.
If anything, central and south america look a lot more like your India/China/Africa comparison, in that the local indigenous populations maintained significan ethnic majority.
It still goes to my main point that the reason European descendants are the majority in North America is the low native population. I would maintain that disease was the driving force in depopulating the natives, allowing an easier time for colonists versus their efforts in other parts of the globe. Would we have colonized the continent anyway? Probably, but I doubt as easy as it was. You find all sorts of stories of early colonists moving into abandoned Native American villages. Heck, that happened at Plymouth colony, and was the main reason they chose the site.
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
So who started getting crazy with EO? O yea the go it alone pen and phone president...
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
If you haven't seen it there is a prequel (of sorts) to Zulu called Zulu Dawn that culminates in the Battle of Isandlwana (which immediately preceded the action at Rorke's Drift portrayed in Zulu) - Zulu is more or less one action set piece while in Zulu Dawn the battle is only at the end. Zulu is the better movie but Zulu Dawn is well worth checking out.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
If you haven't seen it there is a prequel (of sorts) to Zulu called Zulu Dawn that culminates in the Battle of Isandlwana (which immediately preceded the action at Rorke's Drift portrayed in Zulu) - Zulu is more or less one action set piece while in Zulu Dawn the battle is only at the end. Zulu is the better movie but Zulu Dawn is well worth checking out.
Without Michael Caine, I'm not sure I'd get through it
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
So who started getting crazy with EO? O yea the go it alone pen and phone president...
Again, deflecting. I agree Obama has a lot of EO, look at the bold. But that doesn't mean presidents after should be allowed to do the same and just do more EO. For the record i don't even like Obama. I don't hate him either. But i am tired of seeing people use Obama as an excuse for everything. It is getting old.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
If you haven't seen it there is a prequel (of sorts) to Zulu called Zulu Dawn that culminates in the Battle of Isandlwana (which immediately preceded the action at Rorke's Drift portrayed in Zulu) - Zulu is more or less one action set piece while in Zulu Dawn the battle is only at the end. Zulu is the better movie but Zulu Dawn is well worth checking out.
Those were great movies. I lost my copy of Zulu a couple years ago.
What I loved about Zulu was the film's use of local Zulu natives to play their ancestors. They weren't sure what the filmmakers wanted when they were first approached, but then they were treated to a screening of a western and were more than willing to help at that point.
Those were great movies. I lost my copy of Zulu a couple years ago.
What I loved about Zulu was the film's use of local Zulu natives to play their ancestors. They weren't sure what the filmmakers wanted when they were first approached, but then they were treated to a screening of a western and were more than willing to help at that point.
I have both on laserdisc - the copy of Zulu is a gorgeous widescreen Criterion release.
@Arch - Zulu Dawn does have Peter O'Toole and Burt Lancaster though - plus far more rampaging natives.
Culture wars still exist, and there's nothing perverse about recognizing the divisions. *shrugs*
And when the division appears mostly to be Judeo-Christian White Conservatives vs everyone else...
I think everyone recognizes the divisons. No-one has to be explained why Israel and Palestine will never get their shit together. Doesn't mean you don't try.
The main issue is multicultural government subsidies to minorities and other protected classes (LGBT rings a bell) while the white protestant-aligned dinosaur-types are allowed to die out. It's sort of an economic problem to anyone who's not on the happy-go-lucky bandwagon, regardless of one's religious views. I know all sorts of skilled people in my neighborhood who are out-of-work or being under-utilized: carpenter, truck driver, draftsman, aircraft mechanic-- myself I trained in six levels of chemistry, graduated, and never got a lab technician spot. Actually right now I'm looking into literary magazines to see if I can tap into that liberal arts funding; lots of fighting over scraps and pennies.
I feel that during the next election more populist issues will be raised! I think The US is really tired of corruption and wanted someone who talked to them and not big donors. I believe that in the next election things can get better! There are a lot of suffering from many different backgrounds all who need to be considered. Unfortunately we live in an oligarchy and are forced to pick between the choice of 2 wealthy people who really don't represent us (on many levels).
Culture wars still exist, and there's nothing perverse about recognizing the divisions. *shrugs*
And when the division appears mostly to be Judeo-Christian White Conservatives vs everyone else...
I think everyone recognizes the divisons. No-one has to be explained why Israel and Palestine will never get their shit together. Doesn't mean you don't try.
The main issue is multicultural government subsidies to minorities and other protected classes (LGBT rings a bell) while the white protestant-aligned dinosaur-types are allowed to die out. It's sort of an economic problem to anyone who's not on the happy-go-lucky bandwagon, regardless of one's religious views. I know all sorts of skilled people in my neighborhood who are out-of-work or being under-utilized: carpenter, truck driver, draftsman, aircraft mechanic-- myself I trained in six levels of chemistry, graduated, and never got a lab technician spot. Actually right now I'm looking into literary magazines to see if I can tap into that liberal arts funding; lots of fighting over scraps and pennies.
Sigh... Its really sad I am with you have been in school for sooo many years graduated again yesterday. Its really hard to find good work, because we don't really produce things here we heavilly outsource, which makes lower costs for stuff we buy but really hurt the economic growth for other classes here. If we go to school and work really hard we should be guarenteed a job and living wages I believe!
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
So who started getting crazy with EO? O yea the go it alone pen and phone president...
Again, deflecting. I agree Obama has a lot of EO, look at the bold. But that doesn't mean presidents after should be allowed to do the same and just do more EO. For the record i don't even like Obama. I don't hate him either. But i am tired of seeing people use Obama as an excuse for everything. It is getting old.
But alot of things people are bitching over trump. Like his travel moratorium. That was because of obama expanding the powers of the executive branch after his lawsuit against arizona(us vs arizona.
This is why liberals who wanted obama to unilaterally do shit backfires. Giving more power to the govt isnt so great to them when their guy isnt in charge.
A president cannot expand their own powers. And are you really arguing that a Supreme Court decision on presidential powers made Donald Trump decide to ban Muslims? The Supreme Court will have to decide again on this to determine of his ban was about safety from all 0 of those killings by terrorist refugees of those countries or if it was about nationality and religion.
My philosophy is everyone leave everyone else the fuck alone. That's coexisting right?
The Fundies sell the gays cake. The gays sell the Fundies, uh, rainbow tye-dye shirts (or whatever). Keep your personal shit to yourself. Golden rule and all that.
Ahhh... I'm not gay but I like wearing tie dye. Not fair...
Maybe it's changed in recent years, but not that long ago, Catholicism required conversion in order to marry a Catholic spouse.
That sort of concern is not uniquely Muslim.
Mrs. Bumppo is a sorta Catholic (actually Eastern Orthodox - but they were accepted into the Catholic church in areas where there were no Eastern Orthodox congregations).
I am agnostic.
We were married in 1982 and could have been married within the Church if I had been willing to go to a bunch of classes and promise to raise any children as Catholic. I wouldn't have had to convert (although that would have been ideal in their beady little minds). It wasn't particulary critical to either of us to be married within the church so we had a Methodist ceremony instead.
My initial understanding of it was from my parents getting married in 1975, and my dad having to convert and me being baptised Catholic.
(my mom was raised Catholic, but this was all mostly to appease her mom who was a much more classically devout Catholic)
Never practices Catholicism, personally, though, and mostly went to Methodist churches growing up.
I have a couple of friends that converted to Catholicism for similar reasons, though, within the last 5 - 10 years.
(in both cases, the wife was raised Catholic, and her family was "old guard" -- like high level Knights of Columbus old guard -- so there was no other option for the guy that wasn't going to create major family strife)
In terms of "being accepted into" the local Catholic church, I'd assume they'd be happy for anybody to attend, and their major "concern" just comes down to sacrements and whether the person is Catholic enough to take communion.
I am a Southern Baptist. I can go to a Methodist church and take communion if I want. Catholics can come to a Protestant church and take communion, but if I visit a Catholic church, no communion for me.
Also not a fan of drinking after everyone in the congregation. Great way to get mono, colds, flu, etc...
My philosophy is everyone leave everyone else the fuck alone. That's coexisting right?
The Fundies sell the gays cake. The gays sell the Fundies, uh, rainbow tye-dye shirts (or whatever). Keep your personal shit to yourself. Golden rule and all that.
Ahhh... I'm not gay but I like wearing tie dye. Not fair...
Right, and all gays and fundies should both sell it to you. Do you pass the human being check? Do you have cash? Sold
Comments
I agree that this is not a problem unique to one religion; though my issue is when the extremists tell me that I need to give up my views in order to "Coexist"
Which views are you being asked to abandon to coexist?
Better yet, ask a Native American what they think of government oversight of their land. Hunting licenses, taxation, etc. Of course, it was really their fault not to organize and throw off the foreign invaders en masse.
Damn them getting smallpox from the Europeans and not having an immunity, leading to them getting wiped out by about 95%.
Smallpox was but one of the diseases - and a 95% total (of all the various diseases) elimination is likely more than a tad high. In NA (exlusive of what is now Mexico) it was likely 40-50% - likely quite a bit higher in Mexico, CA and SA due to the much much higher density of the populations. The exact figures will never be known since we lack any real statistics - just guestimates of original populations and who died when due to what.
On the other hand the Europeans likely got syphilis and certainly got tobacco from the New World.
We might not know the exact amount, but it was very devastating. It was probably the most significant event in North American history, but no one talks about it.
How significant?
Well, Europeans also tried to colonize India, Africa and China/southeast Asia. Why aren't European descendents the majorities there? Because they could never get a foothold due to too many of the native populations already occupying the land and resources. North America, with its devastated native population, was a free-for-all for European settlers.
On the other hand the Europeans likely got syphilis and certainly got tobacco from the New World.
Along with potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, and a range of other things.
ortrayal
It's really interesting how short a history a lot of "traditional" dishes in other countries really have.
And they got horses and guns from the west. Without those items the high plains culture (which is the most widely (if also widely inaccurate*) portrayal of NA Indians in popular culture) could never have existed.
*My money is on Little Big Man for a fairly accurate portrayal (for non documentary stuff) of the high plains culture - but that is probably just me.
We might not know the exact amount, but it was very devastating. It was probably the most significant event in North American history, but no one talks about it.
How significant?
Well, Europeans also tried to colonize India, Africa and China/southeast Asia. Why aren't European descendents the majorities there? Because they could never get a foothold due to too many of the native populations already occupying the land and resources. North America, with its devastated native population, was a free-for-all for European settlers.
That's not really a fair comparison, at all.
While nobody would deny that Native Americans had a society and rich culture, prior to our arrival... they were not a particularly vast population to begin with.
(there was an article I read in the last year about just how few native Americans lived in the Chesapeake Bay area at the time the English arrived -- it was a MUCH MUCH smaller number than I would have thought)
Nor did they have steel or gunpowder...
India and China had "real" (i.e. defensible) cities, vast populations, steel, large organized militiaries, European-levels of agriculture and animal husbandry, etc.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Okay, then W and Cheney created Obama, and Trump is creating the monster that is to be unleashed in 2020 or 2024. Who needs functioning government when we can have festering rivalry instead.
That's not really a fair comparison, at all.
While nobody would deny that Native Americans had a society and rich culture, prior to our arrival... they were not a particularly vast population to begin with.
Nor did they have steel or gunpowder...
India and China had "real" (i.e. defensible) cities, vast populations, steel, large organized militiaries, European-levels of agriculture and animal husbandry, etc.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
The European forces still rolled over them despite their efforts to resist. China was forced to be subserviant to European interests (Opium Wars), and India was owned outright by a British trade corporation (The East India Company) and the British Empire. Plenty of aristrocrats set up shop there, but the mass immigration of European commoners never took foothold, because there were just too many people already living there. Eventually the European rule was divested.
Estimates for NA population prior to European arrivals range from 25 million low end to 100 million high end. The population was largely considered comparable to Europe's population at the same time. A lot of people died in the years following European settlement in NA. I would also argue the Aztecs and Incas had proper, defensible cities.
We might not know the exact amount, but it was very devastating. It was probably the most significant event in North American history, but no one talks about it.
How significant?
Well, Europeans also tried to colonize India, Africa and China/southeast Asia. Why aren't European descendents the majorities there? Because they could never get a foothold due to too many of the native populations already occupying the land and resources. North America, with its devastated native population, was a free-for-all for European settlers.
Even without the diseases NA (again exclusive of what is now Mexico) NA was never very densely populated (indeed the great plains were virtually unpopulated and would remain so until the adoption of firearms and horses - the portions of the Sioux nation that wound up there only did so after being pushed there by the Ojibway (who got guns from the French before the Sioux got them) and even without the diseases would not have presented much of a serious obstacle to really determined settlement. Asia, Africa and India already had large native populations and the goal was to create situations where those popluations could be economically exploited. Aside from a few colonies in Africa, there never was much of an intent to create traditional colonies where really large groups of newcomers could create their own population base in those areas.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Dude, what does any of that have to do with Trumps tax returns? No offense or anything, but that is all irrelevant information to the topic. He should show his tax returns. There is no reason for him no to, unless he is afraid of people seeing something. Every president shows their tax returns. I'm sure they will be edited to look squeeky clean, but he doesn't even bother to do that. He thinks he is above every other president and thinks he doesn't need to show them at all, which is BS IMO.
And saying other 1%ers fudge their tax returns, so everything is cool, is not an excuse. Again IMO.
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Okay, then W and Cheney created Obama, and Trump is creating the monster that is to be unleashed in 2020 or 2024. Who needs functioning government when we can have festering rivalry instead.
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
The European forces still rolled over them despite their efforts to resist. China was forced to be subserviant to European interests (Opium Wars), and India was owned outright by a British trade corporation (The East India Company) and the British Empire. Plenty of aristrocrats set up shop there, but the mass immigration of European commoners never took foothold, because there were just too many people already living there. Eventually the European rule was divested.
Estimates for NA population prior to European arrivals range from 25 million low end to 100 million high end. The population was largely considered comparable to Europe's population at the same time. A lot of people died in the years following European settlement in NA. I would also argue the Aztecs and Incas had proper, defensible cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
This is really a question of what part of the Americas you're referring to.
My comment about low relative population is about the continental USA.
There were much larger populations in Central and South America, and that wasn't what I was referring to.
If anything, central and south america look a lot more like your India/China/Africa comparison, in that the local indigenous populations maintained significan ethnic majority.
In terms of Aztec/Incan cities... from what I recall of my history of the region, the relatively small number of Spanish conquistadors (something like 100) mustered a HUGE army of local tribes that had been oppressed and abused by the Aztec empire, and won their war with local manpower.
But irrespective, the people of that region weren't "wiped out" in quite the same way that North American natives were.
(as clearly evidenced by the genetic blend of central and south americans, today)
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Dude, what does any of that have to do with Trumps tax returns? No offense or anything, but that is all irrelevant information to the topic. He should show his tax returns. There is no reason for him no to, unless he is afraid of people seeing something. Every president shows their tax returns. I'm sure they will be edited to look squeeky clean, but he doesn't even bother to do that. He thinks he is above every other president and thinks he doesn't need to show them at all, which is BS IMO.
And saying other 1%ers fudge their tax returns, so everything is cool, is not an excuse. Again IMO.
We are just going to go back and forth man
If I had to guess Trump hasn’t released his tax returns because he might not be as rich as he claims to be.
Trump will release his tax returns when Obama releases his college transcripts... o wait.. wonder why those were sealed..
This tit for tat shit needs to stop. It has been going on for years now with Bush, Obama, and presidents before. Two wrongs don't make a right. Typical deflecting the issue and comparing errors of the past to justify ones of the present. Obama has nothing to do with Trump, or him being president NOW.
He should release his taxes because it is the right thing to do. Period.
Actually he does. Obama created Trump whether the Dems want to believe it or not. Trump won the presidency because Hillary was Obama 2.0 but worse. How many seats did the Dems lose under Obama? Why do you think the country is so divided? How could racial tension become worse under the first black president?
Honestly man I am tired of all the violence, rioting, and BS going on now caused by the media. No problem with peaceful protest but that is not what is happening.
Okay, then W and Cheney created Obama, and Trump is creating the monster that is to be unleashed in 2020 or 2024. Who needs functioning government when we can have festering rivalry instead.
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
Obama's campaign promises were getting us out of Aghanistan and Iraq, ending torture, repealing tax cuts on the rich, closing GitMo, etc...
I really feel like Conks don't want to see how familiar this all feels..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop...
This is really a question of what part of the Americas you're referring to.
My comment about low relative population is about the continental USA.
There were much larger populations in Central and South America, and that wasn't what I was referring to.
If anything, central and south america look a lot more like your India/China/Africa comparison, in that the local indigenous populations maintained significan ethnic majority.
It still goes to my main point that the reason European descendants are the majority in North America is the low native population. I would maintain that disease was the driving force in depopulating the natives, allowing an easier time for colonists versus their efforts in other parts of the globe. Would we have colonized the continent anyway? Probably, but I doubt as easy as it was. You find all sorts of stories of early colonists moving into abandoned Native American villages. Heck, that happened at Plymouth colony, and was the main reason they chose the site.
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
So who started getting crazy with EO? O yea the go it alone pen and phone president...
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
If you haven't seen it there is a prequel (of sorts) to Zulu called Zulu Dawn that culminates in the Battle of Isandlwana (which immediately preceded the action at Rorke's Drift portrayed in Zulu) - Zulu is more or less one action set piece while in Zulu Dawn the battle is only at the end. Zulu is the better movie but Zulu Dawn is well worth checking out.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
If you haven't seen it there is a prequel (of sorts) to Zulu called Zulu Dawn that culminates in the Battle of Isandlwana (which immediately preceded the action at Rorke's Drift portrayed in Zulu) - Zulu is more or less one action set piece while in Zulu Dawn the battle is only at the end. Zulu is the better movie but Zulu Dawn is well worth checking out.
Without Michael Caine, I'm not sure I'd get through it
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
So who started getting crazy with EO? O yea the go it alone pen and phone president...
Again, deflecting. I agree Obama has a lot of EO, look at the bold. But that doesn't mean presidents after should be allowed to do the same and just do more EO. For the record i don't even like Obama. I don't hate him either. But i am tired of seeing people use Obama as an excuse for everything. It is getting old.
Africa is a little different, but I think the movie Zulu sums it up pretty well...
If you haven't seen it there is a prequel (of sorts) to Zulu called Zulu Dawn that culminates in the Battle of Isandlwana (which immediately preceded the action at Rorke's Drift portrayed in Zulu) - Zulu is more or less one action set piece while in Zulu Dawn the battle is only at the end. Zulu is the better movie but Zulu Dawn is well worth checking out.
Those were great movies. I lost my copy of Zulu a couple years ago.
What I loved about Zulu was the film's use of local Zulu natives to play their ancestors. They weren't sure what the filmmakers wanted when they were first approached, but then they were treated to a screening of a western and were more than willing to help at that point.
Those were great movies. I lost my copy of Zulu a couple years ago.
What I loved about Zulu was the film's use of local Zulu natives to play their ancestors. They weren't sure what the filmmakers wanted when they were first approached, but then they were treated to a screening of a western and were more than willing to help at that point.
I have both on laserdisc - the copy of Zulu is a gorgeous widescreen Criterion release.
@Arch - Zulu Dawn does have Peter O'Toole and Burt Lancaster though - plus far more rampaging natives.
Culture wars still exist, and there's nothing perverse about recognizing the divisions. *shrugs*
And when the division appears mostly to be Judeo-Christian White Conservatives vs everyone else...
I think everyone recognizes the divisons. No-one has to be explained why Israel and Palestine will never get their shit together. Doesn't mean you don't try.
The main issue is multicultural government subsidies to minorities and other protected classes (LGBT rings a bell) while the white protestant-aligned dinosaur-types are allowed to die out. It's sort of an economic problem to anyone who's not on the happy-go-lucky bandwagon, regardless of one's religious views. I know all sorts of skilled people in my neighborhood who are out-of-work or being under-utilized: carpenter, truck driver, draftsman, aircraft mechanic-- myself I trained in six levels of chemistry, graduated, and never got a lab technician spot. Actually right now I'm looking into literary magazines to see if I can tap into that liberal arts funding; lots of fighting over scraps and pennies.
Culture wars still exist, and there's nothing perverse about recognizing the divisions. *shrugs*
And when the division appears mostly to be Judeo-Christian White Conservatives vs everyone else...
I think everyone recognizes the divisons. No-one has to be explained why Israel and Palestine will never get their shit together. Doesn't mean you don't try.
The main issue is multicultural government subsidies to minorities and other protected classes (LGBT rings a bell) while the white protestant-aligned dinosaur-types are allowed to die out. It's sort of an economic problem to anyone who's not on the happy-go-lucky bandwagon, regardless of one's religious views. I know all sorts of skilled people in my neighborhood who are out-of-work or being under-utilized: carpenter, truck driver, draftsman, aircraft mechanic-- myself I trained in six levels of chemistry, graduated, and never got a lab technician spot. Actually right now I'm looking into literary magazines to see if I can tap into that liberal arts funding; lots of fighting over scraps and pennies.
Sigh... Its really sad I am with you have been in school for sooo many years graduated again yesterday. Its really hard to find good work, because we don't really produce things here we heavilly outsource, which makes lower costs for stuff we buy but really hurt the economic growth for other classes here. If we go to school and work really hard we should be guarenteed a job and living wages I believe!
Expect that logic doesn’t add up with Bush and Cheney. People were looking for someone to believe in and Obama was able to capitalize on it as he was a great public speaker. Obama created Trump from his lawlessness and division.
And Trump isn't dividing the country right now? lol We are more divided now as an entire Nation than ever, rather than just black vs white which is the main divide Obama "created".
And lawlessness? Trump is doing the exact same thing as Obama with EO and questionable actions. It has only been a couple weeks. Give it time, it is only going to get more interesting.
So who started getting crazy with EO? O yea the go it alone pen and phone president...
Again, deflecting. I agree Obama has a lot of EO, look at the bold. But that doesn't mean presidents after should be allowed to do the same and just do more EO. For the record i don't even like Obama. I don't hate him either. But i am tired of seeing people use Obama as an excuse for everything. It is getting old.
But alot of things people are bitching over trump. Like his travel moratorium. That was because of obama expanding the powers of the executive branch after his lawsuit against arizona(us vs arizona.
This is why liberals who wanted obama to unilaterally do shit backfires. Giving more power to the govt isnt so great to them when their guy isnt in charge.
My philosophy is everyone leave everyone else the fuck alone. That's coexisting right?
The Fundies sell the gays cake. The gays sell the Fundies, uh, rainbow tye-dye shirts (or whatever). Keep your personal shit to yourself. Golden rule and all that.
Ahhh... I'm not gay but I like wearing tie dye. Not fair...
Maybe it's changed in recent years, but not that long ago, Catholicism required conversion in order to marry a Catholic spouse.
That sort of concern is not uniquely Muslim.
Mrs. Bumppo is a sorta Catholic (actually Eastern Orthodox - but they were accepted into the Catholic church in areas where there were no Eastern Orthodox congregations).
I am agnostic.
We were married in 1982 and could have been married within the Church if I had been willing to go to a bunch of classes and promise to raise any children as Catholic. I wouldn't have had to convert (although that would have been ideal in their beady little minds). It wasn't particulary critical to either of us to be married within the church so we had a Methodist ceremony instead.
My initial understanding of it was from my parents getting married in 1975, and my dad having to convert and me being baptised Catholic.
(my mom was raised Catholic, but this was all mostly to appease her mom who was a much more classically devout Catholic)
Never practices Catholicism, personally, though, and mostly went to Methodist churches growing up.
I have a couple of friends that converted to Catholicism for similar reasons, though, within the last 5 - 10 years.
(in both cases, the wife was raised Catholic, and her family was "old guard" -- like high level Knights of Columbus old guard -- so there was no other option for the guy that wasn't going to create major family strife)
In terms of "being accepted into" the local Catholic church, I'd assume they'd be happy for anybody to attend, and their major "concern" just comes down to sacrements and whether the person is Catholic enough to take communion.
I am a Southern Baptist. I can go to a Methodist church and take communion if I want. Catholics can come to a Protestant church and take communion, but if I visit a Catholic church, no communion for me.
Also not a fan of drinking after everyone in the congregation. Great way to get mono, colds, flu, etc...
My philosophy is everyone leave everyone else the fuck alone. That's coexisting right?
The Fundies sell the gays cake. The gays sell the Fundies, uh, rainbow tye-dye shirts (or whatever). Keep your personal shit to yourself. Golden rule and all that.
Ahhh... I'm not gay but I like wearing tie dye. Not fair...
Right, and all gays and fundies should both sell it to you. Do you pass the human being check? Do you have cash? Sold