Lou Reed transphobic?
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https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/may/20/lou-reed-walk-wild-side-transphobic-lyrics-canada
IMHO this is an insult to the memory of an extremely notable figure (both on his own and as a member of the Velvet Underground) in music history and what (by any definition) is an iconic song.
IMHO this is an insult to the memory of an extremely notable figure (both on his own and as a member of the Velvet Underground) in music history and what (by any definition) is an iconic song.
Comments
Colleges these days seem to be teaching students to accuse/label/get offended first and -not- ask questions later.
I suppose this is somewhat of a pre-emptive disclaimer, but I am just hoping to avoid another SJW/Liberal bashing thread talking about how people are offended by everything and everything has to be PC all the time, etc etc etc.
Just please remember that this is apparently one place or one example of this happening. It doesn't mean every college everywhere would do the same thing, or that all young people / liberals / whatever would have the same reaction. It's not like Lou Reed is on the front page of newspapers everywhere as being trans-phobic. Sometimes people do overreact and don't fully understand the context of something. I get that this happens and it can be frustrating.
I suppose this is somewhat of a pre-emptive disclaimer, but I am just hoping to avoid another SJW/Liberal bashing thread talking about how people are offended by everything and everything has to be PC all the time, etc etc etc.
May not be all, but being hurt about everything is becoming a trend, specially among college students... They bring the bashing to themselves by behaving so stupidly.
Just please remember that this is apparently one place or one example of this happening. It doesn't mean every college everywhere would do the same thing, or that all young people / liberals / whatever would have the same reaction. It's not like Lou Reed is on the front page of newspapers everywhere as being trans-phobic. Sometimes people do overreact and don't fully understand the context of something. I get that this happens and it can be frustrating.
I suppose this is somewhat of a pre-emptive disclaimer, but I am just hoping to avoid another SJW/Liberal bashing thread talking about how people are offended by everything and everything has to be PC all the time, etc etc etc.
May not be all, but being hurt about everything is becoming a trend, specially among college students... They bring the bashing to themselves by behaving so stupidly.
It's unquestionably becoming a trend. It's not every college student, and not every college hates Lou Reed specifically, this is common sense and doesn't need pointed out. Open your peepers though and you'll see these exact same crosshairs are being placed on random people for silly reasons all the time.
Hell, I was once even accused of being 'transphobic' on this very site ... despite being very non-transphobic.
So why is it so "hurtful"? The article never says.
I am guessing (by previous complaints) that anything implying that trans people are not whatever gender they identify with is offensive. In this case "he became a she" in the lyrics.
Just please remember that this is apparently one place or one example of this happening. It doesn't mean every college everywhere would do the same thing, or that all young people / liberals / whatever would have the same reaction. It's not like Lou Reed is on the front page of newspapers everywhere as being trans-phobic. Sometimes people do overreact and don't fully understand the context of something. I get that this happens and it can be frustrating.
I suppose this is somewhat of a pre-emptive disclaimer, but I am just hoping to avoid another SJW/Liberal bashing thread talking about how people are offended by everything and everything has to be PC all the time, etc etc etc.
My point was not to criticise anyone other than the idiots who started it (who, I sorry to say, richly deserve whatever flak they gather). Which is why I was deliberate by being specific in using "this is an insult" rather "than this type of stuff is an insult". I may feel more strongly about this than most here since I was listening to Lou Reed long before just about everyone else here was even born. While he was communicating about a lot of things I didn't agree with I could recognise the importance of his addressing them.
And bad behaviour shouldn't be excused just because no one reports it (the amount of coverage is dependent on much wider factors than simply how important something is). The vast majority of murders that occur don't get jack for coverage - they are still important to somebody somewhere are they not?
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As an aside (since you opened the door and without getting into PC specifically) if bad behaviour by members of a group (however defined) is not acknowldged and addressed by the wider community (both within and beyond that group) excesses will always continue and more likely than not escalate since there are no brakes being applied.
If they want to get up in arms about something, how about focusing on something legitimate, like the poor portrayal of women in today's popular (mostly rap) music? It doesn't bother me at all personally, I know they're just songs, and their point is not to demean but simply to entertain, just how it is these days. But I can tell you for sure, I would not feel comfortable listening to it if my mom was in the room.
So why is it so "hurtful"? The article never says.
I am guessing (by previous complaints) that anything implying that trans people are not whatever gender they identify with is offensive. In this case "he became a she" in the lyrics.
Which makes the situation even dumber IMHO given the history of Lou Reed and the song. The two people mentioned in the song - Holly (Woodlawn) and Candy (Darling) were members of Andy Warhol's inner circle. Lou Reed was also a member of that circle and the song was specifically written with those 2 people in mind. If one can be bothered to (even cursorily) read anything about Holly the first few lines of the song are from her real life story. In essence if people are critical of that aspect of the song they are actually critical of both Holly's and Candy's life stories.
So why is it so "hurtful"? The article never says.
I am guessing (by previous complaints) that anything implying that trans people are not whatever gender they identify with is offensive. In this case "he became a she" in the lyrics.
Which makes the situation even dumber IMHO given the history of Lou Reed and the song. The two people mentioned in the song - Holly (Woodlawn) and Candy (Delight) were members of Andy Warhol's inner circle. Lou Reed was also a member of that circle and the song was specifically written with those 2 people in mind. If one can be bothered to (even cursorily) read anything about Holly the first few lines of the song are from her real life story. In essence if people are critical of that aspect of the song they are actually critical of both Holly's and Candy's life stories.
This is what I'm thinking. He knew the people in this song, and boiled a complex idea of transition (in both a geographical and sexual identification sense) into 4 lines. I'm sure both Holly and Candy dug the song and weren't hurt by the lyrics, so I imagine the students have no basis to insert themselves into the song. But again, it doesn't say who was hurt or why; it's kind of a lame article to begin with.
But if there really are students that are hurt by this, just imagine what it would be like to be an open transexual 50 years ago in a much less forgiving world. It still might not be easy to come out today, but it's sure as s**t better than it was back then. If I was a professor there, I'd make my students write a paper on the song so they would have to actually listen to it and put it in context. Who knows, they might even learn something by listening.
Sticks and stones will break your bones, but song lyrics will never put anyone in a hospital.
No - but they certainly can put some people's unmentionables in a twist.
Sticks and stones will break your bones, but song lyrics will never put anyone in a hospital.
No - but they certainly can put some people's unmentionables in a twist.
That's for sure. lol
Those kids are idiots.
Some days I really hate this world. I'm going to go listen to Lou Reed.
Those kids are idiots.
This is an extremely funny song (if you like black humor). Rather droning - but that is part of the build up for the ending. One of the Velvet Underground's more (undeservedly so) obscure efforts.
This is pretty intense song of theirs:
The problem with divisive labels is that idiots love to liberally apply them without thinking about the context.
Colleges these days seem to be teaching students to accuse/label/get offended first and -not- ask questions later.
Pretty broad accusation that the alt-right is making against the nefarious liberal professors they hate and fear so much anymore. The us vs them political divide now includes all of higher education apparently.
I think a better broad accuasation, is that people age 18-22 are in general really, really stupid
The problem with divisive labels is that idiots love to liberally apply them without thinking about the context.
Colleges these days seem to be teaching students to accuse/label/get offended first and -not- ask questions later.
Pretty broad accusation that the alt-right is making against the nefarious liberal professors they hate and fear so much anymore. The us vs them political divide now includes all of higher education apparently.
I didn't say all colleges or all students. It's a trend. It exists. It makes headlines. A lot. A noticeably lot. You're trying to point out a hypocracy that doesn't exist instead of observing what's actually happening. We shouldn't be saying "Pretty broad accusation buddy!" -- We should be addressing the problem that does exist and try to solve it.
See above edited post. You're too quick for me
I see. I don't want to make a broad observation and apply it to everyone -- There's always exceptions to the rule of course. In this case though 'the rule' has become enough of a trend that it's disconcerting to me.
USA - We might get a heatwave this summer.
Canada - We're sorry we have all the cold weather.
The problem exists at most colleges, but it's usually isolated to specific departments, groups, or even individuals, and is often helped along by administrations.
College is college, most kids are too busy working or boozing to care about this crap and those that do get their panties in a bunch won't ever be in a position of authority anyway, so there's nothing to really worry about.
Natty your threads always deliver
Just please remember that this is apparently one place or one example of this happening. It doesn't mean every college everywhere would do the same thing, or that all young people / liberals / whatever would have the same reaction. It's not like Lou Reed is on the front page of newspapers everywhere as being trans-phobic. Sometimes people do overreact and don't fully understand the context of something. I get that this happens and it can be frustrating.
I suppose this is somewhat of a pre-emptive disclaimer, but I am just hoping to avoid another SJW/Liberal bashing thread talking about how people are offended by everything and everything has to be PC all the time, etc etc etc.
Nice try, but your worst-case scenario is pretty much reality.
Yes. This is every campus. It's a disease.
"I can be more sensitive than you!"
"Oh yeah? Watch this!"
Natty your threads always deliver
"We aim to please and so does Louise!" (Blatant lift from the Firesign Theatre.)
There was actually quite a lot of sexual stuff in the old rhythm and blues (real old) stuff - I have quite a few cds of compilations (I am no expert but I enjoy listening to what I consider cultural artifacts) of such things with a few devoted to sexually oriented music. Here are a couple of examples:
https://www.amazon.com/Please-Warm-My-Weiner-Hokum/dp/B0085A9J3G/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1495502947&sr=1-1&keywords=warm+my+weiner
https://www.amazon.com/Sissy-Man-Blues-Various-Artists/dp/B000001LYL
I don't know how much could be classed as transgender related but there is at least one example I can think of off the top of my head (but I am sure there are more):
http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Ma_Rainey:Sissy_Blues
I guess the upshot is that if there is a human activity, it is being taken note of somewhere (however obscure) in the popular culture.
Natty your threads always deliver
"We aim to please and so does Louise!" (Blatant lift from the Firesign Theatre.)
There was actually quite a lot of sexual stuff in the old rhythm and blues (real old) stuff - I have quite a few cds of compilations (I am no expert but I enjoy listening to what I consider cultural artifacts) of such things with a few devoted to sexually oriented music. Here is one such example:
https://www.amazon.com/Sissy-Man-...
I don't know how much could be classed as transgender related but there is at least one example I can think of off the top of my head (but I am sure there are more):
http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Ma_R...
I guess the upshot is that if there is a human activity, it is being taken note of somewhere (however obscure) in the popular culture.
No doubt there are probably countless examples, but considering how much more well-refined the music distribution channels were in the early 70's compared to earlier eras, I would have to think that for many people this song might have been their "first". Is there anyone over 40 at this point who doesn't know the song? Even most people my age know it.
Natty your threads always deliver
"We aim to please and so does Louise!" (Blatant lift from the Firesign Theatre.)
There was actually quite a lot of sexual stuff in the old rhythm and blues (real old) stuff - I have quite a few cds of compilations (I am no expert but I enjoy listening to what I consider cultural artifacts) of such things with a few devoted to sexually oriented music. Here is one such example:
https://www.amazon.com/Sissy-Man-Blues-Various-Artists/dp/B0...
I don't know how much could be classed as transgender related but there is at least one example I can think of off the top of my head (but I am sure there are more):
http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Ma_Rainey:Sissy_Blues
I guess the upshot is that if there is a human activity, it is being taken note of somewhere (however obscure) in the popular culture.
No doubt there are probably countless examples, but considering how much more well-refined the music distribution channels were in the early 70's compared to earlier eras, I would have to think that for many people this song might have been their "first". Is there anyone over 40 at this point who doesn't know the song? Even most people my age know it.
Knowledge of such things was always actually pretty common - even as a fairly young bump on the log (maybe late grade school) I was aware that variant lifestyles existed to one extent or another. This stuff just wasn't talked about much outside of certain circles - the fine arts have always been a comfortable zone for example. (Actually most everything of a sexual nature was pretty well suppressed in most of the popular culture. Something that was a lot easier to do when there were far fewer avenues of mass communication available. )
But yeah - Walk on the Wild Side was influential in that it gave an early public widespread exposure (or perhaps acknowledgement is a better term) to such things.
It's Canada. They apologize for everything.
USA - We might get a heatwave this summer.
Canada - We're sorry we have all the cold weather.
I'm sorry you feel that way