I think you misunderstood my posting and acted out in anger.
I don't think he misunderstood you. You act like there's some nacent groundswell acceptance of bootleg/fake carts, but there isn't. The hobby is still too niche, and the people who don't count fake carts in a "complete" collection are in it for the long haul. Those who accept fakes in their collection never stick in the hobby, and drop out of it. Therefore, their opinion holds little weight because they have little to no investment in the hobby beyond spending a few bucks and then selling it again.
The real harm is these bandwagon jumping collectors getting their fake carts out into the market (because like I said, they never stay in the hobby, they're the first to leave), and then you have confusion, bad feelings, and a sourness in the hobby because of these damn fake carts floating around.
People who care about the hobby care about the genuineness.
There is nothing good to be gained by supporting fake carts in any way.
Quest, I was in agreement with you. I get it..I even gave you a smiley face. Change in this hobby is hard for the pure collector..but it's happening. Trust is hard if you purchase from someone who have replica games. We differ in opinions thats it. Your language used to give your opinion is discomforting. Maybe you should read Dain's thread "Let's make this a better to place to visit On the topic of community and negativity".
oh please, there is nothing positive to discuss about bootlegs. Counterfeit replicas deserve heavy negative opinion on a collectors site.
Dont act like a jerk, and you wont get a jerk response back. Follow your own advice Dont lecture me on things you started. If you didnt reply to my reply to pegboy with that smarmy response, then I would have never said anything to you. i apologize that my couple of curse words offended you.
Bolded above is the best part of quests post.
Bighero1006-
your post really came off like you were defending identical counterfeit replicas, and that "collecting NES is changing and identical replicas should be OK" not sure if thats what you meant, but it sure read that way- especially with your post about you "considering a few fakes a complete set"
Mr Wunderful, Quest's post said the slow acceptance in this hobby is disgusting. I agreed. Change is hard. The OPs post said he saw a replica game in a game store. This is becoming more common as I have seen it as well. I also understand the trust issue as I have bought a fake snow bros cart before thinking it was real. Look I get it. I understand fully
My opinion is that if your set is near complete and you have a fake NWC, or bubble bath babes I personally would consider that a complete set....yes not original but complete. Some or even all may not agree but heck, I'm Entitled to my opinion.
I don't mind being on the left here but as I tried to point out I Get it. I've been there. don't know why the use of profanity was warranted It was a smile emoji not an eye roll.
My opinion is that if your set is near complete and you have a fake NWC, or bubble bath babes I personally would consider that a complete set....yes not original but complete. Some or even all may not agree but heck, I'm Entitled to my opinion.
You're entitled to your opinion, but we're entitled to call your opinion barking mad.
the profanity wasnt even towards you. it was in a general sense. Read some context. This is a forum and language is allowed. We are adults, not delicate flower children. I try to not use it all the time unless its a topic I care about.
This is just plain ridiculous to accept reproductions. If this was a sports card collection, would it be acceptable to print cards out and consider sets complete? Of course not. If I hear of anyone that condones reproductions of license games, I won't do business with them. The only reason to own fake games is to deceive others by bragging or to con someone else.
"I just want to play the game" is not a good reason anymore. There are plenty of options to play expensive games without making bootlegs. If you are spending money on fake games, I'm sorry, you are a fool.
Mr Wunderful, Quest's post said the slow acceptance in this hobby is disgusting. I agreed. Change is hard. The OPs post said he saw a replica game in a game store. This is becoming more common as I have seen it as well.
You're part of it! You're saying there's nothing wrong with it! So it's not disgusting to you, so what do you agree with, exactly? And you have no problem participating in it being more common; you're a willing customer. Yet you "understand the trust issue" so, what, you unknowingly got fooled and bought a fake, and that makes you want to knowingly buy more? What? Did your one Snow Bros. bootleg turn you into a nihilist?
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
^^^ the problem with your argument is that people who are already buying bootlegs are already commiting software piracy so an anti flash cart stance on piracy grounds makes no sense.
You are right i dont care as much about famicom bootlegs but guess what a famicom game in an american cart shell doesnt look the same and isnt a replica reproduction. If people want the games to play, why do they need to look the same?
being anti counterfeit and ok with a flashcart isnt hypocritical at all. One affects the hobby and the other doesnt. You are projecting my opinion as a blanket stance against piracy as the reason im anti replica. You're wrong.
My opinion is that if your set is near complete and you have a fake NWC, or bubble bath babes I personally would consider that a complete set....yes not original but complete. Some or even all may not agree but heck, I'm Entitled to my opinion.
Would you sell a game as "complete in box" if you had a cart + photocopied manual + universal game case with printed art? Based on your line of thinking you'd have to answer yes to that as well?
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
I don't buy fakes fyi. Whether its released, hacked, whatever. I want to collect legitimate items.
I have no problem downloading a ROM and playing on an emulator though. I totally see where you're coming from, but theres also something to be said about preservation. If I want to play a game, and there's no easy way to do so legitimately, I will figure out my own way to do it. The way I see it, I could buy a little samson for $1000 and play it, and there is absolutely no issue in terms of copyright infringement. BUT, anybody who would be hurt by piracy, still isnt gaining anything. So whats the difference? these games are old, most of them aren't being profited on anymore. And if the company decides to profit on them again, I'll support it.
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
Well Said.
he is arguing against a point that wasnt even made. Its not well said.
Read my reply right after. I never said anything about the ethics of piracy. If someone was buying a fake game, then theyve already proven that they dont care either and a flashcart would be ok.
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
Well Said.
he is arguing against a point that wasnt even made. Its not well said.
Read my reply right after. I never said anything about the ethics of piracy. If someone was buying a fake game, then theyve already proven that they dont care either and a flashcart would be ok.
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
1:1 identical repros of anything, are not allowed here. Just like we don't share ROMs here either. (Unless homebrew distributed by Dev)
anyone who downloads a ROM "should" own a physical copy (or rip from said physical copy for backup technically)
what people do outside of the site is their own business.
Oh, and identical 1:1 repros, represented as original is not the same as ROMs. Not even close. Not everything is all or nothing, this isn't a democracy.
I don't buy fakes fyi. Whether its released, hacked, whatever. I want to collect legitimate items.
I have no problem downloading a ROM and playing on an emulator though. I totally see where you're coming from, but theres also something to be said about preservation. If I want to play a game, and there's no easy way to do so legitimately, I will figure out my own way to do it. The way I see it, I could buy a little samson for $1000 and play it, and there is absolutely no issue in terms of copyright infringement. BUT, anybody who would be hurt by piracy, still isnt gaining anything. So whats the difference? these games are old, most of them aren't being profited on anymore. And if the company decides to profit on them again, I'll support it.
I totally agree about preservation and as mentioned in my much longer diatribe, ROMs are gray area of piracy, both morally and legally. It's still piracy in nearly all cases (unless you own the real cart and dumped it yourself, which is only a DMCA exception in the US and not actually law), so the practice shouldn't be given a pure thumbs up and green light while pirate carts (of whatever style/flavor) get pure stinkeye. Regarding who gets hurt if you pirate a ROM, ask the same question regarding pirate carts? Who gets hurt? By the same token as ROMs, in most cases, most certainly not the original creator, publisher, etc. However, lots of folks here resell those carts, and some do it for a living. Everybody has a little hypocrisy in their lives, and this double standard (turning a blind eye to ROMs and non-US release repros/pirates but raising hell over US-release fakes) is one that affects a lot of folks here, despite some vehement denials.
Originally posted by: quest4nes
he is arguing against a point that wasnt even made. Its not well said.
Read my reply right after. I never said anything about the ethics of piracy. If someone was buying a fake game, then theyve already proven that they dont care either and a flashcart would be ok.
kinda humorous your name is catain piracy lol
Well, I'm arguing against an implied point. Regarding the ethics of piracy, you didn't say anything directly.
However, if we read your replies and read between the lines (in some cases, there's no need to at all), you're ok with ROMs:
Originally posted by: quest4nes
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Originally posted by: quest4nes
Replica bootlegs hurt the hobby. Flashcarts dont. I dont care about software piracy on a flashcart. Dont tell me ehat i should care about. Thanks
But, you're totally, absolutely against repros:
Originally posted by: quest4nes
Replica bootlegs hurt the hobby. Flashcarts dont. I dont care about software piracy on a flashcart. Dont tell me ehat i should care about. Thanks
Originally posted by: quest4nes
people who spend this much money on these fake pirates are morons. Everdrives that can play essentially everything arent even that much more. N64 is the worst on ebay now. Someone was selling fake mario party 1 2 3 sets for 105 shipped. Sold 20 of them. All 3 real might cost you 150. A Version 2 N64 Everdrive which can play nearly every single thing besides some import stuff is the same price of the mario party fake set. I will never understand the point of people buying expensive fakes to play. One of their feedbacks said. " Games worked great and they look brand new" ???wtf?
A common stance, but one that I see as slightly hypocritical, being against "piracy" in the form of repro carts (which as an active and successful eBay seller, you've posted about despising having to fight against in the marketplace, a totally fair and valid point) but being absolutely, completely fine, with no reservations regarding people just grabbing ROMs instead (still piracy, could have an effect on sales/marketing/etc. for the original/current IP owner, does not visibly/obviously affect sales of original carts). I apologize if it feels like I'm singling you out--I'm not; I chose your post as a response point as you're well known to the community for being an honest, up front seller who appears to absolutely hate any/all repros of licensed carts appearing in the marketplace, and, as you said, hurting the hobby. I'm saying that it's not right to pick and choose which repros are "ok" in the community and which aren't (a common occurrence with US/NES repros of Japanese exclusives, and one I don't believe I've seen you speak up on, so don't feel that I'm putting those words in your mouth) as well as act like one form of blatant piracy (ROMs, US/NES repros of Japanese exclusives) is somehow on any sort of moral high ground in comparison to another (repros of US/NES releases, whether marked as repros or not).
Also (to no one in particular), Chrome finally let me multi-quote! Hallelujah!
1:1 identical repros of anything, are not allowed here. Just like we don't share ROMs here either. (Unless homebrew distributed by Dev)
anyone who downloads a ROM "should" own a physical copy (or rip from said physical copy for backup technically)
what people do outside of the site is their own business.
Originally posted by: MrWunderful
Oh, and identical 1:1 repros, represented as original is not the same as ROMs. Not even close. Not everything is all or nothing, this isn't a democracy.
I'm aware, just intellectually exploring the double standard of acceptance of one form of piracy but absolute shame, doom, gloom, etc. cast down on another. I understand that there are shades of gray in all things, but in the realm of pirates/ROMs/replicas/repros/etc., you're either legitimate, or not. As you put it, "all or nothing"--in the realm of "is this the actual media that the creator/manufacturer/distributor released," 1:1 identical repros, non-1:1 identical repros, "inspired" repros (remakes and/or translations of Famicom carts), and ROMs all fall into the same category as failing that test and being a form of piracy.
Not trying to change the rules via revolt, "democracy," etc., just disheartened by how widespread the double standard is. I own a flash cart myself and have used ROMs since about the dawn of when they started appearing online (back before BBSs had totally conceded all their ground and influence to the internet). But, I don't pretend that me doing so isn't within the same realm of piracy as all the various non-original carts. Is it "better?" Sure, in most folks' eyes, but it would be like sinning and going to the first circle of hell (ROMs) versus the seventh (1:1 intentionally deceptive repros).
1:1 identical repros of anything, are not allowed here. Just like we don't share ROMs here either. (Unless homebrew distributed by Dev)
anyone who downloads a ROM "should" own a physical copy (or rip from said physical copy for backup technically)
what people do outside of the site is their own business.
Originally posted by: MrWunderful
Oh, and identical 1:1 repros, represented as original is not the same as ROMs. Not even close. Not everything is all or nothing, this isn't a democracy.
I'm aware, just intellectually exploring the double standard of acceptance of one form of piracy but absolute shame, doom, gloom, etc. cast down on another. I understand that there are shades of gray in all things, but in the realm of pirates/ROMs/replicas/repros/etc., you're either legitimate, or not. As you put it, "all or nothing"--in the realm of "is this the actual media that the creator/manufacturer/distributor released," 1:1 identical repros, non-1:1 identical repros, "inspired" repros (remakes and/or translations of Famicom carts), and ROMs all fall into the same category as failing that test and being a form of piracy.
Not trying to change the rules via revolt, "democracy," etc., just disheartened by how widespread the double standard is. I own a flash cart myself and have used ROMs since about the dawn of when they started appearing online (back before BBSs had totally conceded all their ground and influence to the internet). But, I don't pretend that me doing so isn't within the same realm of piracy as all the various non-original carts. Is it "better?" Sure, in most folks' eyes, but it would be like sinning and going to the first circle of hell (ROMs) versus the seventh (1:1 intentionally deceptive repros).
Reading my posts above is pretty consistent.
you are "reading between the lines"??? LMAO. No you are making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I am against replicas because it hurts the hobby of nintendo collecting. Not because of software piracy. Get off your high horse and actually read what I said a hundred times already.
I dont give a shit about software piracy. I do care about people replicating fake games to look like the real thing because it ruins the integrity of the hobby.
Again for the 10th time. If people are ok with buying fake games in their collection, then being against owning a flashcart makes no sense. They are idiots for spending money on fakes.
you are "reading between the lines"??? LMAO. No you are making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I am against replicas because it hurts the hobby of nintendo collecting. Not because of software piracy. Get off your high horse and actually read what I said a hundred times already.
I dont give a shit about software piracy. I do care about people replicating fake games to look like the real thing because it ruins the integrity of the hobby.
Again for the 10th time. If people are ok with buying fake games in their collection, then being against owning a flashcart makes no sense. They are idiots for spending money on fakes.
I didn't make up anything nor put any words in your mouth. You hate pirate repros but are totally ok with the pirated software from those same carts (ROMs, having come from the originals that got duped) to be spread around. It's there in your own words in one comment, no interpretation required. I never said you were offended by software piracy--quite the opposite. My point is it's all piracy and pretending like it's not is a double standard. ROMs being totally ok but fakes being abhorrent is a double standard. As MrWunderful pointed out, ROMs aren't allowed on the site (save those cases where the original creator gives the ok)--if they weren't piracy and in the same realm as the bootleg carts, why would they be banned? People frequently come out as being against piracy, then they pick and choose what parts are "ok" and which aren't, a double standard. I don't care what people are ok with in their own experience, but if you're not totally squeaky clean regarding piracy of these games, in any form? Own it.
What I have thought, and perhaps have "put words in your mouth," (and actually apologize if I'm truly wrong versus just receiving a kneejerk 'you don't know what you're talking about' response) is that your total despisement of bootlegs isn't from a completely altruistic place as you claim, but at least partially born from issues you face as a seller (competition for customers via visibility, pricing, etc.). How about this quote from the eBay rant thread, where your rants are laser focused on commerce--whether your'e making money, losing money, wasting time, etc., not the integrity of our hobby?
Originally posted by: quest4nes
Cant stand ebay allowing all the chinese fakes. Its against their policy yet they allow it. The Fake N64 carts are out of control now. They should ban the game category from China.
They message me saying they edited one of my listings to remove No Case or Manual from my disc only title. WTF?, but they allow all the fake shit to stay.
Trying to say that you solely hate repros because of what they represent to the hobby, and not even a little because of how they affect sales? I find that disingenuous, but I suppose you and I will have to agree to always disagree. (Or not, since you never agree with me, perhaps at this point out of habit. )
There's no "high horse" to get off of, just disappointment and frustration at the previously and above mentioned double standard.
you are "reading between the lines"??? LMAO. No you are making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I am against replicas because it hurts the hobby of nintendo collecting. Not because of software piracy. Get off your high horse and actually read what I said a hundred times already.
I dont give a shit about software piracy. I do care about people replicating fake games to look like the real thing because it ruins the integrity of the hobby.
Again for the 10th time. If people are ok with buying fake games in their collection, then being against owning a flashcart makes no sense. They are idiots for spending money on fakes.
I didn't make up anything nor put any words in your mouth. You hate pirate repros but are totally ok with the pirated software from those same carts (ROMs, having come from the originals that got duped) to be spread around. It's there in your own words in one comment, no interpretation required. I never said you were offended by software piracy--quite the opposite. My point is it's all piracy and pretending like it's not is a double standard. ROMs being totally ok but fakes being abhorrent is a double standard. As MrWunderful pointed out, ROMs aren't allowed on the site (save those cases where the original creator gives the ok)--if they weren't piracy and in the same realm as the bootleg carts, why would they be banned? People frequently come out as being against piracy, then they pick and choose what parts are "ok" and which aren't, a double standard. I don't care what people are ok with in their own experience, but if you're not totally squeaky clean regarding piracy of these games, in any form? Own it.
What I have thought, and perhaps have "put words in your mouth," (and actually apologize if I'm truly wrong versus just receiving a kneejerk 'you don't know what you're talking about' response) is that your total despisement of bootlegs isn't from a completely altruistic place as you claim, but at least partially born from issues you face as a seller (competition for customers via visibility, pricing, etc.). How about this quote from the eBay rant thread, where your rants are laser focused on commerce--whether your'e making money, losing money, wasting time, etc., not the integrity of our hobby?
Originally posted by: quest4nes
Cant stand ebay allowing all the chinese fakes. Its against their policy yet they allow it. The Fake N64 carts are out of control now. They should ban the game category from China.
They message me saying they edited one of my listings to remove No Case or Manual from my disc only title. WTF?, but they allow all the fake shit to stay.
Trying to say that you solely hate repros because of what they represent to the hobby, and not even a little because of how they affect sales? I find that disingenuous, but I suppose you and I will have to agree to always disagree. (Or not, since you never agree with me, perhaps at this point out of habit. )
There's no "high horse" to get off of, just disappointment and frustration at the previously and above mentioned double standard.
what are you talking about? I hate fake replicas(you can call them many things) because they arent good for collectors and collections. Hating them as a seller is just a side product of them destroying the hobby. Again that has nothing to do with the software piracy. I seem pretty consistent in all these quotes you are bringing up. How the hell is that disengenuous? I dont give two shits about software piracy. That is all your claim, and none of my words. I.E. you put words into my mouth
You are making assumptions and now trapped arguing something thats not even true and doubling down. smh, how can you not understand what im saying? Because you dont want to? because it doesnt fit your diatribe long rants about something i didnt even say?
I feel like a crazy person, but if you're okay with an exact replica of a legit item (like an SE or Flintstones etc) YOU are a huge problem with this hobby. I've helped my local stores to learn to identify they fakes because some dickhead was trading in replicas of rare games for huge amounts of store credit/cash, and in turn people were buying them not knowing any better. Thankfully most of the real collecting community can easily avoid this stuff, but I wonder how much money new collectors have lost dealing with people selling this trash. I still report every single repro I see on ebay, obviously it does nothing but maybe one day.
If you just want them to play or because you can't afford the real Little Samson, then you should be okay with putting them in a green shell or using a custom label that looks nothing like the original.
If you just want them to play or because you can't afford the real Little Samson, then you should be okay with putting them in a green shell or using a custom label that looks nothing like the original.
I agree with this. There is no reason to make a bootleg that is a 1 to 1 copy. I actually like the funky colors on bootlegs. I've got a red Little Samson myself.
I also just want to say that I hate the fact that this hobby has become so focused on how much things are worth instead of the enjoyment gotten from the games themselves. It's like in the 90's people would buy polybagged comics and not even take them out and read them. Sadly all collector hobbies seem to degenerate to this point. There was a time when baseball cards were about kids trading for their favorite players. Now I think it's only about how much some cards are worth. I've never understood this mentality, and I think it's kind of repulsive. Sorry if I've offended anybody, just sharing my feelings.
Comments
Quest-
I think you misunderstood my posting and acted out in anger.
I don't think he misunderstood you. You act like there's some nacent groundswell acceptance of bootleg/fake carts, but there isn't. The hobby is still too niche, and the people who don't count fake carts in a "complete" collection are in it for the long haul. Those who accept fakes in their collection never stick in the hobby, and drop out of it. Therefore, their opinion holds little weight because they have little to no investment in the hobby beyond spending a few bucks and then selling it again.
The real harm is these bandwagon jumping collectors getting their fake carts out into the market (because like I said, they never stay in the hobby, they're the first to leave), and then you have confusion, bad feelings, and a sourness in the hobby because of these damn fake carts floating around.
People who care about the hobby care about the genuineness.
There is nothing good to be gained by supporting fake carts in any way.
Quest, I was in agreement with you. I get it..I even gave you a smiley face. Change in this hobby is hard for the pure collector..but it's happening. Trust is hard if you purchase from someone who have replica games. We differ in opinions thats it. Your language used to give your opinion is discomforting. Maybe you should read Dain's thread "Let's make this a better to place to visit On the topic of community and negativity".
oh please, there is nothing positive to discuss about bootlegs. Counterfeit replicas deserve heavy negative opinion on a collectors site.
Dont act like a jerk, and you wont get a jerk response back. Follow your own advice Dont lecture me on things you started. If you didnt reply to my reply to pegboy with that smarmy response, then I would have never said anything to you. i apologize that my couple of curse words offended you.
Bolded above is the best part of quests post.
Bighero1006-
your post really came off like you were defending identical counterfeit replicas, and that "collecting NES is changing and identical replicas should be OK" not sure if thats what you meant, but it sure read that way- especially with your post about you "considering a few fakes a complete set"
Mr Wunderful, Quest's post said the slow acceptance in this hobby is disgusting. I agreed. Change is hard. The OPs post said he saw a replica game in a game store. This is becoming more common as I have seen it as well. I also understand the trust issue as I have bought a fake snow bros cart before thinking it was real. Look I get it. I understand fully
My opinion is that if your set is near complete and you have a fake NWC, or bubble bath babes I personally would consider that a complete set....yes not original but complete. Some or even all may not agree but heck, I'm Entitled to my opinion.
I don't mind being on the left here but as I tried to point out I Get it. I've been there. don't know why the use of profanity was warranted It was a smile emoji not an eye roll.
My opinion is that if your set is near complete and you have a fake NWC, or bubble bath babes I personally would consider that a complete set....yes not original but complete. Some or even all may not agree but heck, I'm Entitled to my opinion.
You're entitled to your opinion, but we're entitled to call your opinion barking mad.
"I just want to play the game" is not a good reason anymore. There are plenty of options to play expensive games without making bootlegs. If you are spending money on fake games, I'm sorry, you are a fool.
Mr Wunderful, Quest's post said the slow acceptance in this hobby is disgusting. I agreed. Change is hard. The OPs post said he saw a replica game in a game store. This is becoming more common as I have seen it as well.
You're part of it! You're saying there's nothing wrong with it! So it's not disgusting to you, so what do you agree with, exactly? And you have no problem participating in it being more common; you're a willing customer. Yet you "understand the trust issue" so, what, you unknowingly got fooled and bought a fake, and that makes you want to knowingly buy more? What? Did your one Snow Bros. bootleg turn you into a nihilist?
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
You are right i dont care as much about famicom bootlegs but guess what a famicom game in an american cart shell doesnt look the same and isnt a replica reproduction. If people want the games to play, why do they need to look the same?
being anti counterfeit and ok with a flashcart isnt hypocritical at all. One affects the hobby and the other doesnt. You are projecting my opinion as a blanket stance against piracy as the reason im anti replica. You're wrong.
My opinion is that if your set is near complete and you have a fake NWC, or bubble bath babes I personally would consider that a complete set....yes not original but complete. Some or even all may not agree but heck, I'm Entitled to my opinion.
Would you sell a game as "complete in box" if you had a cart + photocopied manual + universal game case with printed art? Based on your line of thinking you'd have to answer yes to that as well?
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
Well Said.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
I don't buy fakes fyi. Whether its released, hacked, whatever. I want to collect legitimate items.
I have no problem downloading a ROM and playing on an emulator though. I totally see where you're coming from, but theres also something to be said about preservation. If I want to play a game, and there's no easy way to do so legitimately, I will figure out my own way to do it. The way I see it, I could buy a little samson for $1000 and play it, and there is absolutely no issue in terms of copyright infringement. BUT, anybody who would be hurt by piracy, still isnt gaining anything. So whats the difference? these games are old, most of them aren't being profited on anymore. And if the company decides to profit on them again, I'll support it.
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
Well Said.
he is arguing against a point that wasnt even made. Its not well said.
Read my reply right after. I never said anything about the ethics of piracy. If someone was buying a fake game, then theyve already proven that they dont care either and a flashcart would be ok.
kinda humorous your name is catain piracy lol
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
Well Said.
he is arguing against a point that wasnt even made. Its not well said.
Read my reply right after. I never said anything about the ethics of piracy. If someone was buying a fake game, then theyve already proven that they dont care either and a flashcart would be ok.
kinda humorous your name is catain piracy lol
Haha.. There is a bit of irony in that.
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Unless you're talking about making friends with somebody who has the games you're lacking, getting your hands on the ROMs and playing them that way (via emulator, flash cart, etc.) is just creating more "pirates" of licensed (or unlicensed) NES games. When you dump the ROMs and distribute them, it becomes pure software piracy. If you're against piracy in general (and not just because fake carts hurt your bottom line, whereas ROMs aren't perceived to do so), then you ought to be against those other ways as well. Non-original/official carts of any sort and ROMs are both/all piracy, pure and simple.
Not exactly. Just using Little Samson as an example, buying the original cart does not give any money to the developer takeru who is gone. Taito, the publisher, is owned by Square Enix, have they distributed this game in any way? No. Do they get money from someone buying a cart? No. This would be different if we're talking something like Earthbound which can be purchased on virtual console. I don't know exactly how the laws around it work, but in my opinion if the owner of the copyright for a game is not offering a way to legitimately play it, it becomes fair game.
Whether a company is actively offering software for sale or not, so long as they still hold the legal right to it, it's illegal and considered piracy to obtain, distribute, etc. copies of it. In the world of ROMs for old systems, that's frequently overlooked, as most of the titles haven't seen any sort of distribution or brand recognition in years (decades). The same is frequently true of computer games as well, usually under the umbrella term "abandonware." However, unless a company specifically releases its product into the public domain willingly, or the appropriate amount of time (currently approximately 75-100 years for company produced works) has elapsed. Absolutely no commercial computer or video game software has existed long enough to have hit the "default" date, and there are only a relative handful of games that I'm aware of (2-3 arcade ROMs, but there could be more) that have been willingly released by their owners/creators.
Is anyone being hurt when you pirate a ROM? In most cases, probably not, at least not directly, but nobody is really doing any of the legwork to determine if that's true or not because of the normalization of the idea that piracy is ok, doesn't hurt anyone, etc. Please don't take this as any sort of judgement one way or the other, my post was mostly an intellectual exercise, with that particular reply pointed at Quest mostly because he talks about how bootlegs are terrible, a bane on the hobby, etc., but only insofar as it directly affects someone's bottom line (ie: physical carts should be banned, but pirating the ROMs--also stealing the games--is totally ok), which I see as hypocritical. Either piracy, bootlegs, etc. (which are just different sides of the same thing) are all officially not ok, and everybody does whatever they're going to do in their own moral gray areas, or they're all technically cool, but the ones that lead to money loss in the hobby/community are incredibly inconvenient. Using Quest as an unwilling example, the complaint I see out of him most often on here is how bootleg N64 carts have ruined sales figures of reselling legitimate N64 carts, which makes them totally evil. I interpret that as this one facet of piracy is hitting my bottom line and, thus, is evil; ROMs don't overtly show any direct impact on said business, and are thus given a pass, even though they're still the exact same sort of piracy.
I take issue with the seemingly prevailing thought process that I see on here where Quest's extrapolated objection is most folks' reaction. Piracy is bad, but just this specific sliver of it, that affects "me and mine" directly. If it's a fake/bootleg/pirate/"repro"/etc. of a game that didn't originally come out in the US, screw how that might affect original Famicom collectors, that's a totally ok release because it's convenient for the folks on this side of the ocean. I've seen at least a couple of users (and one outspoken one reasonably frequently) take lumps for objecting to this, pointing out the hypocrisy in a ban on repros of licensed titles which saw a US release but allowing a free-for-all for titles which didn't make it here. The argument has been made that nobody would mistake an NES cart for a Famicom one, but how is that seriously different from someone selling Little Samson repros whose label is dominated by "TOTALLY NOT REAL, REPRODUCTION"? Ease of turning one into a "perfect" 1:1 fake versus the other could be brought up, but what would be said if somebody took the time and effort (if they haven't already and I just haven't seen any) to offer 1:1 Famicom repros? Would the ban hammer drop on those like they do 1:1 NES/SNES/N64 carts? There's a precedent that says maybe, and perhaps probably, not.
Piracy is piracy, regardless of what trappings we wrap it up in, and we honestly should be giving the side eye to all of it, not just those parts that most affect (or offend) us. I understand that we'll always have our own personal moral gray areas insofar as stuff like this is concerned, but I just can't support saying one type of bootleg is A-OK while another is THE DEVIL. Yes, 1:1 reproductions/fakes are infinitely more problematic than an obviously not remotely similar release of a Famicom title on NES-specific hardware, but both are from the same ballpark and both should be viewed similarly, even if not to the same degree. There's no moral high ground to be had in objecting to one type of repro/pirate when nearly all the folks here are gobbling up some other pirated form(s). Anyway, I'm hopping off my intellectual soapbox. I don't expect much to come of this but welcome the discussion, if not some (anticipated) vitriol.
1:1 identical repros of anything, are not allowed here. Just like we don't share ROMs here either. (Unless homebrew distributed by Dev)
anyone who downloads a ROM "should" own a physical copy (or rip from said physical copy for backup technically)
what people do outside of the site is their own business.
Well Said.
Thank you.
I don't buy fakes fyi. Whether its released, hacked, whatever. I want to collect legitimate items.
I have no problem downloading a ROM and playing on an emulator though. I totally see where you're coming from, but theres also something to be said about preservation. If I want to play a game, and there's no easy way to do so legitimately, I will figure out my own way to do it. The way I see it, I could buy a little samson for $1000 and play it, and there is absolutely no issue in terms of copyright infringement. BUT, anybody who would be hurt by piracy, still isnt gaining anything. So whats the difference? these games are old, most of them aren't being profited on anymore. And if the company decides to profit on them again, I'll support it.
I totally agree about preservation and as mentioned in my much longer diatribe, ROMs are gray area of piracy, both morally and legally. It's still piracy in nearly all cases (unless you own the real cart and dumped it yourself, which is only a DMCA exception in the US and not actually law), so the practice shouldn't be given a pure thumbs up and green light while pirate carts (of whatever style/flavor) get pure stinkeye. Regarding who gets hurt if you pirate a ROM, ask the same question regarding pirate carts? Who gets hurt? By the same token as ROMs, in most cases, most certainly not the original creator, publisher, etc. However, lots of folks here resell those carts, and some do it for a living. Everybody has a little hypocrisy in their lives, and this double standard (turning a blind eye to ROMs and non-US release repros/pirates but raising hell over US-release fakes) is one that affects a lot of folks here, despite some vehement denials.
he is arguing against a point that wasnt even made. Its not well said.
Read my reply right after. I never said anything about the ethics of piracy. If someone was buying a fake game, then theyve already proven that they dont care either and a flashcart would be ok.
kinda humorous your name is catain piracy lol
Well, I'm arguing against an implied point. Regarding the ethics of piracy, you didn't say anything directly.
However, if we read your replies and read between the lines (in some cases, there's no need to at all), you're ok with ROMs:
Sadly there was a time tgat opinion would be laughed off the site. I miss those days. This slow acceptance creeping into the hobby disgusts me.
Just laughable. There are ways to play any gane. There is no need for pirates of licensed nes games.
Replica bootlegs hurt the hobby. Flashcarts dont. I dont care about software piracy on a flashcart. Dont tell me ehat i should care about. Thanks
But, you're totally, absolutely against repros:
Replica bootlegs hurt the hobby. Flashcarts dont. I dont care about software piracy on a flashcart. Dont tell me ehat i should care about. Thanks
people who spend this much money on these fake pirates are morons. Everdrives that can play essentially everything arent even that much more. N64 is the worst on ebay now. Someone was selling fake mario party 1 2 3 sets for 105 shipped. Sold 20 of them. All 3 real might cost you 150. A Version 2 N64 Everdrive which can play nearly every single thing besides some import stuff is the same price of the mario party fake set. I will never understand the point of people buying expensive fakes to play. One of their feedbacks said. " Games worked great and they look brand new" ???wtf?
A common stance, but one that I see as slightly hypocritical, being against "piracy" in the form of repro carts (which as an active and successful eBay seller, you've posted about despising having to fight against in the marketplace, a totally fair and valid point) but being absolutely, completely fine, with no reservations regarding people just grabbing ROMs instead (still piracy, could have an effect on sales/marketing/etc. for the original/current IP owner, does not visibly/obviously affect sales of original carts). I apologize if it feels like I'm singling you out--I'm not; I chose your post as a response point as you're well known to the community for being an honest, up front seller who appears to absolutely hate any/all repros of licensed carts appearing in the marketplace, and, as you said, hurting the hobby. I'm saying that it's not right to pick and choose which repros are "ok" in the community and which aren't (a common occurrence with US/NES repros of Japanese exclusives, and one I don't believe I've seen you speak up on, so don't feel that I'm putting those words in your mouth) as well as act like one form of blatant piracy (ROMs, US/NES repros of Japanese exclusives) is somehow on any sort of moral high ground in comparison to another (repros of US/NES releases, whether marked as repros or not).
Also (to no one in particular), Chrome finally let me multi-quote! Hallelujah!
1:1 identical repros of anything, are not allowed here. Just like we don't share ROMs here either. (Unless homebrew distributed by Dev)
anyone who downloads a ROM "should" own a physical copy (or rip from said physical copy for backup technically)
what people do outside of the site is their own business.
Oh, and identical 1:1 repros, represented as original is not the same as ROMs. Not even close. Not everything is all or nothing, this isn't a democracy.
I'm aware, just intellectually exploring the double standard of acceptance of one form of piracy but absolute shame, doom, gloom, etc. cast down on another. I understand that there are shades of gray in all things, but in the realm of pirates/ROMs/replicas/repros/etc., you're either legitimate, or not. As you put it, "all or nothing"--in the realm of "is this the actual media that the creator/manufacturer/distributor released," 1:1 identical repros, non-1:1 identical repros, "inspired" repros (remakes and/or translations of Famicom carts), and ROMs all fall into the same category as failing that test and being a form of piracy.
Not trying to change the rules via revolt, "democracy," etc., just disheartened by how widespread the double standard is. I own a flash cart myself and have used ROMs since about the dawn of when they started appearing online (back before BBSs had totally conceded all their ground and influence to the internet). But, I don't pretend that me doing so isn't within the same realm of piracy as all the various non-original carts. Is it "better?" Sure, in most folks' eyes, but it would be like sinning and going to the first circle of hell (ROMs) versus the seventh (1:1 intentionally deceptive repros).
1:1 identical repros of anything, are not allowed here. Just like we don't share ROMs here either. (Unless homebrew distributed by Dev)
anyone who downloads a ROM "should" own a physical copy (or rip from said physical copy for backup technically)
what people do outside of the site is their own business.
Oh, and identical 1:1 repros, represented as original is not the same as ROMs. Not even close. Not everything is all or nothing, this isn't a democracy.
I'm aware, just intellectually exploring the double standard of acceptance of one form of piracy but absolute shame, doom, gloom, etc. cast down on another. I understand that there are shades of gray in all things, but in the realm of pirates/ROMs/replicas/repros/etc., you're either legitimate, or not. As you put it, "all or nothing"--in the realm of "is this the actual media that the creator/manufacturer/distributor released," 1:1 identical repros, non-1:1 identical repros, "inspired" repros (remakes and/or translations of Famicom carts), and ROMs all fall into the same category as failing that test and being a form of piracy.
Not trying to change the rules via revolt, "democracy," etc., just disheartened by how widespread the double standard is. I own a flash cart myself and have used ROMs since about the dawn of when they started appearing online (back before BBSs had totally conceded all their ground and influence to the internet). But, I don't pretend that me doing so isn't within the same realm of piracy as all the various non-original carts. Is it "better?" Sure, in most folks' eyes, but it would be like sinning and going to the first circle of hell (ROMs) versus the seventh (1:1 intentionally deceptive repros).
Reading my posts above is pretty consistent.
you are "reading between the lines"??? LMAO. No you are making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I am against replicas because it hurts the hobby of nintendo collecting. Not because of software piracy. Get off your high horse and actually read what I said a hundred times already.
I dont give a shit about software piracy. I do care about people replicating fake games to look like the real thing because it ruins the integrity of the hobby.
Again for the 10th time. If people are ok with buying fake games in their collection, then being against owning a flashcart makes no sense. They are idiots for spending money on fakes.
Reading my posts above is pretty consistent.
you are "reading between the lines"??? LMAO. No you are making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I am against replicas because it hurts the hobby of nintendo collecting. Not because of software piracy. Get off your high horse and actually read what I said a hundred times already.
I dont give a shit about software piracy. I do care about people replicating fake games to look like the real thing because it ruins the integrity of the hobby.
Again for the 10th time. If people are ok with buying fake games in their collection, then being against owning a flashcart makes no sense. They are idiots for spending money on fakes.
I didn't make up anything nor put any words in your mouth. You hate pirate repros but are totally ok with the pirated software from those same carts (ROMs, having come from the originals that got duped) to be spread around. It's there in your own words in one comment, no interpretation required. I never said you were offended by software piracy--quite the opposite. My point is it's all piracy and pretending like it's not is a double standard. ROMs being totally ok but fakes being abhorrent is a double standard. As MrWunderful pointed out, ROMs aren't allowed on the site (save those cases where the original creator gives the ok)--if they weren't piracy and in the same realm as the bootleg carts, why would they be banned? People frequently come out as being against piracy, then they pick and choose what parts are "ok" and which aren't, a double standard. I don't care what people are ok with in their own experience, but if you're not totally squeaky clean regarding piracy of these games, in any form? Own it.
What I have thought, and perhaps have "put words in your mouth," (and actually apologize if I'm truly wrong versus just receiving a kneejerk 'you don't know what you're talking about' response) is that your total despisement of bootlegs isn't from a completely altruistic place as you claim, but at least partially born from issues you face as a seller (competition for customers via visibility, pricing, etc.). How about this quote from the eBay rant thread, where your rants are laser focused on commerce--whether your'e making money, losing money, wasting time, etc., not the integrity of our hobby?
Cant stand ebay allowing all the chinese fakes. Its against their policy yet they allow it. The Fake N64 carts are out of control now. They should ban the game category from China.
They message me saying they edited one of my listings to remove No Case or Manual from my disc only title. WTF?, but they allow all the fake shit to stay.
Trying to say that you solely hate repros because of what they represent to the hobby, and not even a little because of how they affect sales? I find that disingenuous, but I suppose you and I will have to agree to always disagree. (Or not, since you never agree with me, perhaps at this point out of habit. )
There's no "high horse" to get off of, just disappointment and frustration at the previously and above mentioned double standard.
Reading my posts above is pretty consistent.
you are "reading between the lines"??? LMAO. No you are making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I am against replicas because it hurts the hobby of nintendo collecting. Not because of software piracy. Get off your high horse and actually read what I said a hundred times already.
I dont give a shit about software piracy. I do care about people replicating fake games to look like the real thing because it ruins the integrity of the hobby.
Again for the 10th time. If people are ok with buying fake games in their collection, then being against owning a flashcart makes no sense. They are idiots for spending money on fakes.
I didn't make up anything nor put any words in your mouth. You hate pirate repros but are totally ok with the pirated software from those same carts (ROMs, having come from the originals that got duped) to be spread around. It's there in your own words in one comment, no interpretation required. I never said you were offended by software piracy--quite the opposite. My point is it's all piracy and pretending like it's not is a double standard. ROMs being totally ok but fakes being abhorrent is a double standard. As MrWunderful pointed out, ROMs aren't allowed on the site (save those cases where the original creator gives the ok)--if they weren't piracy and in the same realm as the bootleg carts, why would they be banned? People frequently come out as being against piracy, then they pick and choose what parts are "ok" and which aren't, a double standard. I don't care what people are ok with in their own experience, but if you're not totally squeaky clean regarding piracy of these games, in any form? Own it.
What I have thought, and perhaps have "put words in your mouth," (and actually apologize if I'm truly wrong versus just receiving a kneejerk 'you don't know what you're talking about' response) is that your total despisement of bootlegs isn't from a completely altruistic place as you claim, but at least partially born from issues you face as a seller (competition for customers via visibility, pricing, etc.). How about this quote from the eBay rant thread, where your rants are laser focused on commerce--whether your'e making money, losing money, wasting time, etc., not the integrity of our hobby?
Cant stand ebay allowing all the chinese fakes. Its against their policy yet they allow it. The Fake N64 carts are out of control now. They should ban the game category from China.
They message me saying they edited one of my listings to remove No Case or Manual from my disc only title. WTF?, but they allow all the fake shit to stay.
Trying to say that you solely hate repros because of what they represent to the hobby, and not even a little because of how they affect sales? I find that disingenuous, but I suppose you and I will have to agree to always disagree. (Or not, since you never agree with me, perhaps at this point out of habit. )
There's no "high horse" to get off of, just disappointment and frustration at the previously and above mentioned double standard.
what are you talking about? I hate fake replicas(you can call them many things) because they arent good for collectors and collections. Hating them as a seller is just a side product of them destroying the hobby. Again that has nothing to do with the software piracy. I seem pretty consistent in all these quotes you are bringing up. How the hell is that disengenuous? I dont give two shits about software piracy. That is all your claim, and none of my words. I.E. you put words into my mouth
You are making assumptions and now trapped arguing something thats not even true and doubling down. smh, how can you not understand what im saying? Because you dont want to? because it doesnt fit your diatribe long rants about something i didnt even say?
Reproduction carts would be better if they weren't made.
If you just want them to play or because you can't afford the real Little Samson, then you should be okay with putting them in a green shell or using a custom label that looks nothing like the original.
I agree with this. There is no reason to make a bootleg that is a 1 to 1 copy. I actually like the funky colors on bootlegs. I've got a red Little Samson myself.
I also just want to say that I hate the fact that this hobby has become so focused on how much things are worth instead of the enjoyment gotten from the games themselves. It's like in the 90's people would buy polybagged comics and not even take them out and read them. Sadly all collector hobbies seem to degenerate to this point. There was a time when baseball cards were about kids trading for their favorite players. Now I think it's only about how much some cards are worth. I've never understood this mentality, and I think it's kind of repulsive. Sorry if I've offended anybody, just sharing my feelings.
What?
Reproduction carts would be better if they weren't made.
You mean Reproduction carts are illegal?
What?
Reproduction carts would be better if they weren't made.
You mean Reproduction carts are nonexistent and banned?
A month late quote bump? Savage.
And, No? 1:1 repros are everywhere, and shouldn't be made. At all, for any reason. Counterfeits are bad, period.