More WATA discussion
I happen to think this catches on big time and all the more expensive items will eventually be expected to be graded if they are going to be bought and sold. Similar to baseball card collecting back in the day - if you had an item above a certain price, you wanted it graded. I don't collect comics, but I understand its the same there. I like the idea of getting carts graded and have no idea how WATA's price structure will work, but at what price point will it be worth grading a cart? This can be answered in either or both the subjective or objective sense and I would be interested to hear either or both. Would also love to hear what WATA people hope or possibly foresee being the norm in that regard. The price point that first popped in my mind was $100 and up items, assuming you could get multiple items graded in a bulk discount to cut down on overall cost and shipping. That prediction may be on the low end, but I could see it. Can you?
Comments
Maybe $250 and up? For me definitely Little Samson/Dino Peak territory, but not sure on stuff like Panic Restaurant, Bonk, Duck Tales 2, etc.
Although, I guess I could see myself slabbing a mint Super Metroid. I guess I'd be too scared to mail high end stuff so it would just be display stuff for me that would be on the lower end.
Good discussion! Keep it going
NES
I am not totally against grading BTW. I get it for sealed games, as they are not meant to be opened anyway. I even get it for loose carts if that is what you want, if it is expensive or maybe you got something signed or special or whatever. But I do not think it will be a common thing, like getting a baseball card or a comic graded as a matter of course for any cart over a certain value. As much as people scream about using flash carts and emulators, it remains the case that the huge majority of people buying carts intend to play them. Grading precludes that, and so it will remain a small niche imo.
It's crazy to me how that game is valued. It will be interesting to see what other GBA games compete with that one over time.
Personally, I could see myself grading some low end crap cart similar to Paul's SMB for the hell of it.
That comment made me laugh
Personally, I plan on one day submitting a Super Mario Bros/Duckhunt combo cart for submission...
Why? Because why not!!!!
Maybe send in an Atari 2600 copy of ET while I'm at it.
Personally, I could see myself grading some low end crap cart similar to Paul's SMB for the hell of it.
That comment made me laugh
Personally, I plan on one day submitting a Super Mario Bros/Duckhunt combo cart for submission...
Why? Because why not!!!!
Maybe send in an Atari 2600 copy of ET while I'm at it.
I got this bad boy ready to go
I got this bad boy ready to go
Oh wow, that's awful or pretty or awfully pretty
But seriously though, I don't think many people realize these are easy enough to pop open after the fact. How great would it be as a buyer to have an exact grade and description of condition ready to go rather than hoping the seller knows what the hell they're talking about, or not trying to hide anything. I can buy a game, know the exact condition, rip the slab open and enjoy it. For me personally, I'd take that service on a $150+ game
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous, and I'm sure most people on this forum couldn't afford most of what is put out there.
Go look up prices on sealed Zelda/Mario stuff on eBay. Are you telling me those are reasonable prices?
I would hope and think that one of the main points about launching this service is to negate that ridicilous pricing and actually stabilize the market somewhat.
But seriously though, I don't think many people realize these are easy enough to pop open after the fact. How great would it be as a buyer to have an exact grade and description of condition ready to go rather than hoping the seller knows what the hell they're talking about, or not trying to hide anything. I can buy a game, know the exact condition, rip the slab open and enjoy it. For me personally, I'd take that service on a $150+ game
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous, and I'm sure most people on this forum couldn't afford most of what is put out there.
Go look up prices on sealed Zelda/Mario stuff on eBay. Are you telling me those are reasonable prices?
I would hope and think that one of the main points about launching this service is to negate that ridicilous pricing and actually stabilize the market somewhat.
First of all, if I wanna put up a shitty super Mario/duck hunt cart for $7000, that's up to me. Nobody will buy it.
Secondly, condition matters for price. The more pieces you add, the more it matters. Sealed is gonna cost you more, if you can't afford it, don't collect it.
For me, I collect CIB, the price for a great condition game vs shit condition can absolutely be triple, graded or not.
But seriously though, I don't think many people realize these are easy enough to pop open after the fact. How great would it be as a buyer to have an exact grade and description of condition ready to go rather than hoping the seller knows what the hell they're talking about, or not trying to hide anything. I can buy a game, know the exact condition, rip the slab open and enjoy it. For me personally, I'd take that service on a $150+ game
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous, and I'm sure most people on this forum couldn't afford most of what is put out there.
Go look up prices on sealed Zelda/Mario stuff on eBay. Are you telling me those are reasonable prices?
I would hope and think that one of the main points about launching this service is to negate that ridicilous pricing and actually stabilize the market somewhat.
First of all, if I wanna put up a shitty super Mario/duck hunt cart for $7000, that's up to me. Nobody will buy it. Secondly, condition matters for price. The more pieces you add, the more it matters. Sealed is gonna cost you more, if you can't afford it, don't collect it. For me, I collect CIB, the price for a great condition game vs shit condition can absolutely be triple, graded or not.
Yeah, yeah you can, and it is up to you. It is a very wrong thing to do though, for several good reasons.
Of course condition matters for price, and obviously price can more than triple depending on the condition. Condition wasn't the point at all.
Did you not get or understand my point?
ie if I’m selling a mint cib Samson I could see there being quite a bit of value to someone having reviewed and authenticated and graded it. Peace of mind for the buyer that it isn’t some inkjet knock off
But seriously though, I don't think many people realize these are easy enough to pop open after the fact. How great would it be as a buyer to have an exact grade and description of condition ready to go rather than hoping the seller knows what the hell they're talking about, or not trying to hide anything. I can buy a game, know the exact condition, rip the slab open and enjoy it. For me personally, I'd take that service on a $150+ game
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous, and I'm sure most people on this forum couldn't afford most of what is put out there.
Go look up prices on sealed Zelda/Mario stuff on eBay. Are you telling me those are reasonable prices?
I would hope and think that one of the main points about launching this service is to negate that ridicilous pricing and actually stabilize the market somewhat.
First of all, if I wanna put up a shitty super Mario/duck hunt cart for $7000, that's up to me. Nobody will buy it. Secondly, condition matters for price. The more pieces you add, the more it matters. Sealed is gonna cost you more, if you can't afford it, don't collect it. For me, I collect CIB, the price for a great condition game vs shit condition can absolutely be triple, graded or not.
Variant matters too, especially Hangtab variants for NES
A first print cardboard Hangtab Mario in near perfect condition will go for dozens of times more than a oval seal missing one inner ear flap and white around the edges.
Completeness matters too. A Wacky Races with or without the poster makes all the difference in the world of price, same for Indiana Jones / Jimmy Connors Tennis registration card. Both games are very rare and both came with the same registration card. I think Jimmy Connors has it folded instead of flat.
But seriously though, I don't think many people realize these are easy enough to pop open after the fact. How great would it be as a buyer to have an exact grade and description of condition ready to go rather than hoping the seller knows what the hell they're talking about, or not trying to hide anything. I can buy a game, know the exact condition, rip the slab open and enjoy it. For me personally, I'd take that service on a $150+ game
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous, and I'm sure most people on this forum couldn't afford most of what is put out there.
Go look up prices on sealed Zelda/Mario stuff on eBay. Are you telling me those are reasonable prices?
I would hope and think that one of the main points about launching this service is to negate that ridicilous pricing and actually stabilize the market somewhat.
But it doesn’t “triple the price”. people put all kinda of ridiculous asking prices on shit just for hype or attention.
There is supply and demand. If someone lists up a NWC Cart for $10,000, and someone buys it, and both parties are happy - is that reasonable? I don't know, to me it seems just WILD and I would never in a million years spend that much money on it - but obviously someone feels differently. Values fluctuate. supply and demand fluctuates, due to numerous factors.
There are countless examples of items where my willingness to pay for something differs GREATLY from what is available on the market. It doesn't mean there is some evil force behind it - it is just frankly the way things are. It is ok to be disappointed, bummed, even frustrated about it, but at some point people will be a lot less bothered and stressed about "prices" if they can come to accept this and deal with it better.
Now, when there is blatant, provable, and malicious intent to deceive, distort, or mislead the market or customers, that is perhaps a different story. But someone listing something for a high amount is not alone one of those things.
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous
I put this in the poll thread. Do you have examples of sold auctions (not just unsold listings) where VGA had a significant effect on the final price, beyond the cost of grading and separate from other factors like condition? At "triple the cost" those should be very easy to demonstrate.
What about high value cibs? Do people plan on sending those in? Lots of fake boxes and manuals on eBay, and it will likely only get worse over time. Seems like a cib in the 500+ range would be a pretty natural fit. Thoughts? For the record I provide what help I can but am not directly involved in that I don't own any piece of wata and am not compensated.
ie if I'm selling a mint cib Samson I could see there being quite a bit of value to someone having reviewed and authenticated and graded it. Peace of mind for the buyer that it isn't some inkjet knock off
Hi bronty, I read in the original wata statement that you would be considered a "community advisor". So you do plan on having some games graded as well? I believe what you stated about there being quite a bit of value added to these games by being graded and authenticated might be concerning for some people.
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous
I put this in the poll thread. Do you have examples of sold auctions (not just unsold listings) where VGA had a significant effect on the final price, beyond the cost of grading and separate from other factors like condition? At "triple the cost" those should be very easy to demonstrate.
I absolutely may have fibbed on the numbers, and "triple" wasn't the best qualifier to use. But here are some sold Zelda listings as an example: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=vga+graded+zelda&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=&_sargn=-1&saslc=1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1
So I think it's pretty clear based on those sold auctions that VGA has had a real impact on a lot of game prices, and that some of that impact has indeed been a bit "crazy", for the lack of a better term.
I welcome WATA, because it seems to be run by people who want to create a service based on needs and wants of the community. I was just making the point that VGA has indeed contributed to a bubble in the sealed collecting market that has gone a bit overboard, and I assume that is one of the exact reasons why the need for something like WATA has arisen, and also why its announcement has been so welcomed on here.
But seriously though, I don't think many people realize these are easy enough to pop open after the fact. How great would it be as a buyer to have an exact grade and description of condition ready to go rather than hoping the seller knows what the hell they're talking about, or not trying to hide anything. I can buy a game, know the exact condition, rip the slab open and enjoy it. For me personally, I'd take that service on a $150+ game
Even if it more than triples the cost of the game? Because the prices on sealed VGA stuff are ridicilous, and I'm sure most people on this forum couldn't afford most of what is put out there.
Go look up prices on sealed Zelda/Mario stuff on eBay. Are you telling me those are reasonable prices?
I would hope and think that one of the main points about launching this service is to negate that ridicilous pricing and actually stabilize the market somewhat.
But it doesn’t “triple the price”. people put all kinda of ridiculous asking prices on shit just for hype or attention.
You're right in that it would be more correct to say that it "variably" affects the price in a signficant way. See my previous response to bunny for a very real example of this.
Yeah, people do just that. And two of those reasons are absolutely hype and/or attention. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect prices, that it's a healthy thing, and that it shouldn't be discussed. Quite the contrary.
What about high value cibs? Do people plan on sending those in? Lots of fake boxes and manuals on eBay, and it will likely only get worse over time. Seems like a cib in the 500+ range would be a pretty natural fit. Thoughts? For the record I provide what help I can but am not directly involved in that I don't own any piece of wata and am not compensated.
ie if I'm selling a mint cib Samson I could see there being quite a bit of value to someone having reviewed and authenticated and graded it. Peace of mind for the buyer that it isn't some inkjet knock off
Hi bronty, I read in the original wata statement that you would be considered a "community advisor". So you do plan on having some games graded as well? I believe what you stated about there being quite a bit of value added to these games by being graded and authenticated might be concerning for some people.
Hi,
I understand your concern but I do think you might be looking a little too hard for things to be concerned about. My comment about samson is simply a comment on the mechanics of the market as I have seen them in other markets and as I believe they would apply here. In my mind its just common sense really as grading and authentication only make prices go up for special items. If you grade something that's unappealing, all you've done is prove its unappealing! And nobody is going to pay for that. If you have something special and can prove its special, that's different and the markets across all collectible categories tend to reward that. In that sense, its no different than trusted sellers or good pictures bringing higher prices, its just the next level of that removal of buyer's fears. That's what buying from a good seller does, that's what excellent pictures do, that's what grading and certification do - remove fear and give the buyer assurance that what they will get in the mail is what they are hoping for. In that sense all these sorts of services do is allow buyers to pay what they want to pay by removing their risk. Grading doesn't "increase price". Buyers increase the value attached to special items IF they are special.
As for me grading games with WATA, at some point, mainly just to support the venture, I'll send some stuff in. But 90% of the games I'd bother grading are graded already by VGA and I own almost zero cib or loose games. So I will submit but don't expect to be a heavy submitter. I think that perhaps you may not realize that while I've stayed active in the scene the last time I was DEEP into games was 2007 when I began to collect art. That's 11 years ago now. I've stayed on top of the market and have continued to network with people, and have bought and sold here and there but my activity is well reduced from the early days of my collecting around 2002 as I long ago branched off into art collecting.
There is almost no such thing as a 'reasonable price' in the market for collectibles, period. This extends beyond WATA, beyond grading, and beyond video games.
There is supply and demand. If someone lists up a NWC Cart for $10,000, and someone buys it, and both parties are happy - is that reasonable? I don't know, to me it seems just WILD and I would never in a million years spend that much money on it - but obviously someone feels differently. Values fluctuate. supply and demand fluctuates, due to numerous factors.
There are countless examples of items where my willingness to pay for something differs GREATLY from what is available on the market. It doesn't mean there is some evil force behind it - it is just frankly the way things are. It is ok to be disappointed, bummed, even frustrated about it, but at some point people will be a lot less bothered and stressed about "prices" if they can come to accept this and deal with it better.
Now, when there is blatant, provable, and malicious intent to deceive, distort, or mislead the market or customers, that is perhaps a different story. But someone listing something for a high amount is not alone one of those things.
A transparent and realistic overview of general supply and demand should absolutely reflect what is considered a reasonable price point for any goods or services. The lack of any such parameters is what any economic bubble, amongst other factors, is predicated upon. It is also the very chaos that is evident in both inflated and dried-up markets.
Now we can probably have a 30-page long discussion about the semantics of "reasonable", but you understand what I am saying. There will always be outliers, anectodal and contradictary evidence, but that doesn't mean that there is indeed a generalized sense and reason to any healthy market, its expected and "reasonable" price points, and how that equates to an expected supply and demand.
If people were perfectly happy with how VGA has affected today's market, then they wouldn't be so welcoming of WATA. One reason people are looking forward to WATA entering the scene - amongst many other reasons, of course - I would think is exactly this.
So I think it's pretty clear based on those sold auctions that VGA has had a real impact on a lot of game prices, and that some of that impact has indeed been a bit "crazy", for the lack of a better term.
Looking only at the graded ones isn't useful to show VGA has an effect on prices, you have to compare to non graded, like:
VGA classic series Zelda for $355 https://www.ebay.com/itm/332554664396
Nongraded for $299 https://www.ebay.com/itm/132503166664
Nongraded looks like it is lower condition, and the VGA one is a real auction instead of BIN so I have more confidence in the price. Grading + shipping is in the $40 range so there is not a significant difference between those. Of course one example isn't useful and nobody has bothered to look at it in more detail.
There is almost no such thing as a 'reasonable price' in the market for collectibles, period. This extends beyond WATA, beyond grading, and beyond video games.
There is supply and demand. If someone lists up a NWC Cart for $10,000, and someone buys it, and both parties are happy - is that reasonable? I don't know, to me it seems just WILD and I would never in a million years spend that much money on it - but obviously someone feels differently. Values fluctuate. supply and demand fluctuates, due to numerous factors.
There are countless examples of items where my willingness to pay for something differs GREATLY from what is available on the market. It doesn't mean there is some evil force behind it - it is just frankly the way things are. It is ok to be disappointed, bummed, even frustrated about it, but at some point people will be a lot less bothered and stressed about "prices" if they can come to accept this and deal with it better.
Now, when there is blatant, provable, and malicious intent to deceive, distort, or mislead the market or customers, that is perhaps a different story. But someone listing something for a high amount is not alone one of those things.
A transparent and realistic overview of general supply and demand should absolutely reflect what is considered a reasonable. The lack of any such parameters is what any economic bubble, amongst other factors, is predicated upon.
Now we can have a 30-page long discussion about the semantics of "reasonable", but you understand what I am saying. There will always be outliers, anectodal and contradictary evidence, but that doesn't mean that there is indeed a generalized sense and reason to any market, its expected and "reasonable" price points, and how that equates to an expected supply and demand.
If people were perfectly happy with how VGA has affected today's market, then they wouldn't be so welcoming of WATA. One reason people are looking forward to WATA entering the scene - amongst many other reasons, of course - I would think is exactly this.
Look, I don't want to speak for Deniz and Kenneth, but ultimately, my sense is that they want to make the hobby a more welcoming place for all the people out there that love these games like you and I do, and would like to collect them but are turned off by bootlegs, or don't even know that there's a collectible scene (I bet you there are 100 guys out there who love contra for every guy that realizes collecting NES games is even a thing you can do). When I've spoken to them the sense I've gotten is that its more about wrapping their arms around the community and about sharing the love for these games with other people who would like to collect too but don't know it yet. They've been inclusive and respectful of everyone in their dealings so far and ultimately I believe that's how they will manage things going forward as well. So, I don't think they are trying to "take over the current scene" so much as they recognize that there are so many people out there that love the stuff like we do, and let's share the love with everyone. Because we can all think back to when we started collecting, and started realizing what an awesome hobby this was... that was a special feeling and there are lots of people out there with the love for this stuff that are missing out on that. My sense is the overwhelming mission here is to share the love and give people new ways to enjoy collecting. I think you'll see as things progress that they have some great ideas in mind along those lines. Just grading loose carts or cib's isn't the only thing they are doing here, but its probably too soon to even get into all the rest of it at this point as they are just rolling this out now.