HDMI output has now spoiled me.
The image quality on my 47" lcd really blew me away. Now I see what all the fuss is about with these hdmi output clone consoles. I highly recommend this one. Nice to have audio going through the HDMI as well and putting the sound out both speakers without having to use a Y Audio splitter. Definitely the way to play the classics other than a CRT and original NES.
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Since I only collect and plays SNES and Genesis I mostly play on SNES games on the Super NT, I pre ordered the Mega Sg and I cant wait no more haha. But I have a crt set up to play the Genesis.
But yes playing games via hdmi is amazing, I know crt is the way to go hdmi is amazing
It feels like time has slowed to a crawl waiting for the Mega Sg.
Those things literally have the same scaler chip that your TV uses to convert composite to the native flat panel, only the output is routed to an HDMI transmitter instead of an LCD panel. The NES clone inside is still outputting 240p composite and the scaler handles 240p composite incorrectly EXACTLY like all other consumer digital TVs (treats 240p composite as 480i).
I'm not kidding: Watch Adrian Black's latest YouTube video if you don't believe me about these scalers using the same scalers most TVs have internally. That means it has the exact same problems with NES composite as a modern TV with composite inputs. It typically adds double the latency (your TV still has to scale) and does not improve the image in any way. Furthermore, you often lose the ability to set the correct aspect ratio, since many TVs will not let you adjust it for a digital/HD input. Heck, some don't even let you adjust it for a 480p analog input!
The worst part is that the scaler attempts to de-interlace a non-interlaced signal, creating horrible artifacts and ruining the image quality. It does this because it is intended to be connected to a natively progressive digital panel of some kind and it assumes analog inputs are standard definition 480i (for most retro consoles, they aren't). Retro consoles are generally 240p, and no modern digital consumer television properly handles 240p over composite. This is the reason why you might remember old games looking better on an analog CRT that properly handles 240p.
One example of the scaler causing problems is with 60hz effects, like flashing a sprite to simulate transparency. A game might do this to indicate that you are invulnerable for a few seconds after you get hit by an enemy, but these improper scalers might show you as solid or completely invisible instead of flashing at 60hz. Even smooth scrolling is a 60hz effect, so you will lose detail as the image scrolls.
What you have there is a "NES On A Chip" clone (NOAC) with a $15 composite to HDMI scaler built in. It's literally no better than buying one of those scalers to use with any other NOAC. Actually, that would be give you much more flexibility and work with all your other consoles, unlike this. Also, this is one of the NOACs confirmed to have reverse duty cycles for bad sound. This is a decidedly inferior experience to simply plugging your NES into a modern TV with composite input which is also a decidedly inferior experience to a proper HDMI conversion.
The only way to get proper RGB or HDMI output from an NES is to replace the PPU (graphics chip) since the original only outputs composite. Hi-Def NES, RetroUSB AVS, Nt Mini, NESRGB, etc do this using an FPGA that can replicate the PPU for lossless digital conversion that's every bit as good as the output from their reverse engineering of the original PPU. The NOACs are stuck with a composite-only combined single-chip system with a PPU that cannot be discretely replaced, so you get composite no matter what.
With Hi-Def NES, Nt Mini, NESRGB, AVS, etc the RGB/HDMI output never existed as composite. These "HD" clone consoles are not even close since they literally start as composite-only consoles that get resampled by the scaler chip. Conceptually, it isn't that much different from pointing a GoPro at your screen and piping the HDMI output into another screen.
The real kicker is that it's totally possible to take 240p composite from the NES and properly convert it for cheap. No, you don't need a $300 Framemeister or a $100 RetroTink 2X. There is actually a line of devices based on the same chip found inside the $15 GBS-8200 which, with custom firmware, can properly scale 240p. It's kind of a hack since the chip was never intended for 240p, but it definitely works. If they bothered to do the NES clone systems right they would source that chip and integrate proper handling of 240p.
Considering that the GBS-8200 and it's DVI/HDMI variants are about the same price as these 480i-only composite to HDMI scalers they could conceivably integrate something like it for the same price... but they don't. Until they do, I STRONGLY suggest that people stay far away from these fake HDMI clone consoles.
It blows my mind that none of you Framemeister junkies have pointed this out yet! The OP, unfortunately, has not experienced any improvement from HDMI.
Also most clones have terrible sound because two of the duty cycles are swapped.
... It's literally the exact same as directly plugging composite into any problematic modern digital TV that still has analog inputs ...
Well some new TVs are confused by 240p to the point that they only display a message like "no signal" or "signal out of range," so this would at least send 480p or 720p to the TV to avoid that. Also maybe they chose a converter that handles 240p correctly instead of treating it as 480i. I dunno.
Regardless, NES-001 with RetroTINK 2X should be superior.
If any one of these clone consoles ever properly handles 240p it would be BIG news in the retro gaming community, especially since we don’t even have a cheap stand-alone device to do this. 60FPS YouTube footage confirms: It’s just a standard composite video scaler that does not properly handle 240p.
Even the TVs that properly handle 240p over component still see it as 480i through composite. With composite video the same TV typically can't tell the difference and has to assume it is standard 480i.
That said, I recall our old Dell 2007WFP had issues running Star Wars Episode 1 Racer on N64 until we enabled the higher resolution (480i), but I think we were using S-Video. It was totally glitched and what part of the image was there was all squished and distorted and stretched off the screen. That’s a 12 year old display that was already incompatible with 240p!
I would actually like a nice "tube" crt with component in. I've gone through 3 trinitrons all have geometry and color (like faded) issues. That would be fine for me and genesis/SNES.
My ideal setup for NES would be rgb mod and a pvm.
Years ago I got spoiled by emulators in the 90s into the 00s using a LCD panel on my computer. I never had any idea how bad CRT ghosting and other wash out old SD tvs did to these beautiful games until I saw that, then I kind of preferred at times using my computer unless I really felt I needed the total original experience using my system still. It was only in very recent months to years now I've converted every single one of my Nintendo SD consoles to HDTV in some manner, the loosest conversion being a SuperNT replacement. The UltraHDMI in my N64, the HiDef NES Kit in my original console on both of those, and then the external GC2HDMI kit for my Gamecube. The output is nothing but stunning. Before that I did put up with a garbage HD choice in the lousy Retron 5 device and it just was a bit of good and utility mixed with a lot of spotty to bad stuff so I went all in with those updates instead.
I will sometimes simulate some scanlines but honestly I don't care either way as I love the crystal clarity of the sharp original stuff that got developed on old computers anyway for these consoles and handhelds. I know CRT at time with its faults was used to blend this or soften that and it can be lost, but that's kind of how the scanline filter fixes that when needed. I love the things I have and the clarity it gives without worrying about some lame input lag scenario converting the old 240p RCA jack signal through the set. If I were hardware savvy I have a couple things I'd love to convert to using such things, or at least and LCD too, but I can not so I'm not quite CRT and RCA free yet.
Recently changed from PVM to framemesiter, because of space. Not ideal, but Its growing on me.
What?! Sacrilege!
Haha yeah I have an NES/SNES Classic, original consoles on composite on a good condition CRT, and a Top Loader NES on RF on a TV with slight fading picture and color issues....It took me a long time to experience NES/SNES in HDMI but it's pretty amazing. I still enjoy using all three setups though.
You mean you HAD an SNES Classic, before you were screwin around and broke it.
Recently changed from PVM to framemesiter, because of space. Not ideal, but Its growing on me.
What?! Sacrilege!
Lol I know right? I still have my 13”, just my big old 20” is gone for the main setup.
Originally posted by: empire
Originally posted by: Trj22487
Haha yeah I have an NES/SNES Classic, original consoles on composite on a good condition CRT, and a Top Loader NES on RF on a TV with slight fading picture and color issues....It took me a long time to experience NES/SNES in HDMI but it's pretty amazing. I still enjoy using all three setups though.
You mean you HAD an SNES Classic, before you were screwin around and broke it.
lol nah they work again....the SNES always worked....it was the NES I locked up for a little bit....it ended up being a simple fix
Haha I was thinking the same, this dude totally left out the work the kevtris did and the Analouge line up which they make a far superior product when it comes to FPGA consoles then anyone else, and they make beautiful consoles. I'm sorry to say but the retro AVS is not aesthetically good looking console.
I have Hi-Def NES, but I still kinda want an AVS too. I'd want to replace the mini USB connector with micro USB and 3D-print a new enclosure. Then it can be swapped in place of all my mini consoles and my Super Nt using the same micro USB cable and HDMI cable for everything. The trapezoid shape would be fine if the angles were subtle. As it is, the angles are just too extreme and it looks bad as a result.
Also the Famicom slot should be moved toward the front so it can have a door flap resembling an original NES-001 and would not require as much vertical clearance. It would still perform the necessary function of blocking the NES slot while a Famicom game is inserted and blocking the Famicom slot when an NES game is inserted.
You're going to butt kiss the AVS and throw analogue or the hi def kits by kevtris and marhsall under the bus? Really? I've gone FGPA on my stuff and it's amazing. NES and N64 with hi def kits, SuperNT for SNES and the HDMI external digital device for the Cube. They work amazing without any draw backs. I guess as tulpa put it, I'm part of the FPGA master race.
I think he’s mixing them all together, since the original Analogue Nt is the only one that uses “OG hardware.” That said, I don’t consider the original Nt to be a “clone console” either. Nt Mini? AVS? Sure. Hi-Def NES? Eh, *sorta*, since it has to replicate the PPU. UltraHDMI replaces the ADC video encoder after the N64 is done doing everything else it’s going to do so I wouldn’t consider it a clone either.
Also the Famicom slot should be moved toward the front so it can have a door flap resembling an original NES-001 and would not require as much vertical clearance. It would still perform the necessary function of blocking the NES slot while a Famicom game is inserted and blocking the Famicom slot when an NES game is inserted.
The AVS door and slots are shaped that way to accomodate the RAM adapter for the FDS.
Say what you will but I tried this on a 13", 32', and 47" HDTV through HDMI and it looks far better than any other way I've played NES games. Scroll on up through the video to see it in action. Composite just shows blurred washed out edges especially noticeable around Mario. Did I expect these results out of a $29.99 system, heck no, but eyes don't lie. I see no way the image could be improved no matter how much $$$ you spend.
An NES-001 with a $15 composite to HDMI adapter would look identical or better. Because that adapter is exactly what you already have built inside your TV, it would be even better without it. It’s very likely that their internal HDMI adapter is making the composite output worse in the clone.
[YouTube video]
Unfortunately, the sound is way off (as with most NOAC Famiclone systems). In your video, I can hear that the sound is all wrong.
Watch the Lon.TV video I posted earlier and jump to 5 minutes 15 seconds.
https://youtu.be/RTfPelg77Lg#t=5m15s
The sound is definitely a deal-breaker for me (as with most clones, not just the Gamerz Tek 8-bit HD).
Here's a video of me playing a Hyperkin NOAC system at a flea market a couple years ago:
https://youtu.be/ax4rhMLPcig
I started recording after noticing some glitches that didn't clear up when the cartridge was re-seated and the system was power-cycled. When the phone camera is brought in close to the TV, you can hear that this system's sound is also way off.