The Prototype Debate Thread
Well, it's about time someone made this thread, as I'm sick of seeing people that have questions get stepped on by others to not 'thread crap,' or whatever you want to call it. We're not allowed to post negativety, so what seems to be a pretty sizable amount of the community feels largely unspoken for. Below I've put down a few things that I've noticed more than one person mention before. KEEP IT CIVIL WHILE DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC, PLEASE.
Selling the ROM
It seems like it's just selling someone else's program to everyone.
Program is edited from original
This goes hand-in-hand with the first one. The original, untouched ROM isn't going out to but a few people, I think. Then it gets the legal info taken off the screen to protect the investment in the proto. However, with the data being changed, is the investment really gone? It feels like this is just a way to get money for the ROM, and then the proto still be worth alot, and be able to double the money up if the hardcopy were to be sold in the future.
Paying for dump then also cart
Debate has been brought up about people donating to get it dumped, then having to have money to also purchase the cart for it.
Can't and/or won't check for differences
If you're purchasing something, you want to know what you are getting. If the person selling it doesn't let everyone know what they are paying for, then why would the buyer want to buy it? If something is being sold for hundreds or thousands of dollars, most folks would like to know exactly what they would be getting. I'm not sure to what extent things haven't been divulged about the games, but I don't think alot of info is even put forth besides the name of the game.
The preserving history thing
While the main people heading up the dumps are all about preserving the history, it feels like the protos being dumped right now aren't about preserving history, but more about getting cash out of people. I understand that alot of work had to be done to get alot of these prototypes, but saying that they won't be dumped unless there is XXXX amount of dollars put forth, the history won't be preserved, which just feels wrong.
I'm not trying to piss in anyone's Cheerios here, but there seems to be alot of people that don't feel like they have a say in the matter. If it's going to be about the community doing this stuff, then the community should get their say.
Anyway, if there are any other concerns about this topic, please post them for further discussion.
Once again, let's keep it civil people, no flaming.
Selling the ROM
It seems like it's just selling someone else's program to everyone.
Program is edited from original
This goes hand-in-hand with the first one. The original, untouched ROM isn't going out to but a few people, I think. Then it gets the legal info taken off the screen to protect the investment in the proto. However, with the data being changed, is the investment really gone? It feels like this is just a way to get money for the ROM, and then the proto still be worth alot, and be able to double the money up if the hardcopy were to be sold in the future.
Paying for dump then also cart
Debate has been brought up about people donating to get it dumped, then having to have money to also purchase the cart for it.
Can't and/or won't check for differences
If you're purchasing something, you want to know what you are getting. If the person selling it doesn't let everyone know what they are paying for, then why would the buyer want to buy it? If something is being sold for hundreds or thousands of dollars, most folks would like to know exactly what they would be getting. I'm not sure to what extent things haven't been divulged about the games, but I don't think alot of info is even put forth besides the name of the game.
The preserving history thing
While the main people heading up the dumps are all about preserving the history, it feels like the protos being dumped right now aren't about preserving history, but more about getting cash out of people. I understand that alot of work had to be done to get alot of these prototypes, but saying that they won't be dumped unless there is XXXX amount of dollars put forth, the history won't be preserved, which just feels wrong.
I'm not trying to piss in anyone's Cheerios here, but there seems to be alot of people that don't feel like they have a say in the matter. If it's going to be about the community doing this stuff, then the community should get their say.
Anyway, if there are any other concerns about this topic, please post them for further discussion.
Once again, let's keep it civil people, no flaming.
Comments
Legally, this software or film could be recalled by the original owner/creator...but in the meantime, on the black market (which is what we really are, doing what we're doing funding releases like this) it's "top-dollar wins."
Really it's no more or less illegal than, say, downloading a generic ROM of a normal, released game. Which is to say, still illegal...but the difference is the big demand and unique supply.
edit: BTW, Roth's a champion cheerio-pisser.
i havent said word one in any of the threads because if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. but, here's the thread, so here's my thoughts.
it's all about the benjamins. people that have them that don't really care to have them anymore want to make the most possible profit from them (which, who wouldn't?). the best way for this is dump the rom for a crazy price, change it just a tad, keep the value of the original somewhat intact, and resell the hard copy later down the line. once again, they're trying to make money, but i'm not holding that against them. i'm just sick of people acting like they are being kind by allowing it to be dumped, or preserving history. give me a break. if they really cared about preserving history, they would. i don't care that they do what they do, but don't put on a front about it. be honest. you want money and you want to milk the most that you can out of your investment.
second, count your losses as losses. if you traded a 5k game for a proto, it doesn't make the proto worth 5k. it especially doesn't make the dump of the proto worth 5k. sorry, don't understand who would pay 5k for a game that looks awful as is. let's face it. if a game was great, it would have been released. i don't feel like i'm missing out on much. i'd rather spend $20 on 20 silent service carts than on a ROM of a boring game. At least the silent service carts would be physical items.
third, does anyone understand how much these recent prices are? 1k or 5k is a freaking hunk of change. even if it's only $20-50 a member, that is how much the seller is making on the DUMP of a cart. wow.
don't get me wrong - i have absolutely nothing against the sellers of the carts. you gotta do what you gotta do. just don't play this off like the sellers are the saviors of protos or something. they want money. we got money. they want all of the money they can get. if you honestly care about preserving history, then donate to the homebrewers. to be honest their games are BETTER than the unreleased games i've seen. if you really care about the community and the history, keep the history alive by supporting the ones making a difference now. not buying some ROM of a cart that got thrown to the wayside. you know how awesome of a cart/manual/box a homebrewer could do with 5k?
once again, i'm not trying to attack anyone. just saying how i feel about the whole subject. if you feel like $20 from you and 250 other members is worth a crappy ROM, more power to you. i'd much rather support other aspects of the community though.
Roth, how can you keep it civil when it's obvious I am the one being attacked here.
Let me set something straight. When I first started collecting prototypes, I was chastised because I would not dump the things. I would spends tons of money acquiring the things, and yelled at for not wanting to dump the things. Now you did not mention me by name here, but I'm the only one really wanting to actually KEEP the item instead of just making XXX copies for selling it.
Let's take a look at your arguments here:
About "checking for differences", what am I checking for on unreleased prototypes with nothing to compare them to? For stuff like Exerion, and I am supposed to dig out a Famicom and document it after I dug out the Exerion II proto? You don't understand how many people ask for screens/pictures and comparisons and are never 100% serious on the items. I just don't have time to "document" differences of released games to protos either. You have to be extremely naive to think that I can find differences just by turning on the game and digging out a retail copy. I've sold tons and tons of games, and everyone knows that sometimes you end up with some really valuable stuff with differences based on my prices.
As far as "profit" goes, I'm asking for my investments back on these things and after the dump, the game will be devalued to normal dumped unreleased prototype levels (about $250-$300 for the cart). You have people making PROFITS on everyone on these forums for YEARS with released games and that's ok, but here I come with a proto and I'm a profiteer? Seriously.
As far as your "program" edited from the original argument. All I ask is LEGAL INFO Be removed so when people make COPIES the game is still authentic. How you think this means the game will "double" in money I have no idea. You're stretching beyond belief here if you think that I can get double for a game in the future with just some legal info changed. It's just to save the authenticity of the cart. You just don't want it to end up like the Atari 2600 community where only a handful of people making repros can tell the difference between real and fakes of anything.
And as far as "selling the ROM" goes...I mean, you can say that about anything. Bunnyboy NWC? CGE releases of Atari 2600 games for YEARS....Repros of games from anyone else? What makes this proto thing a need for a discussion. Nothing against what bunnyboy is doing at all by ANY means, but you see my point here. What about when langenfeld bought a Tower of Radia proto, sold some copies of it as a limited release, and then who ended up eventually buying the dumped cart? Me. Again, nothing against him either, but where was the need for a "debate" thread when THAT happened?
Another thing, NO ONE is asking for MORE MONEY after the fact for something like War on Wheels to do the box/manual/carts for a CIB game. I said the person who donates the MOST money should be able to do it, but I was throwing that out there for the initial $5000, nothing more. IF someone donates $2000, I would have thought that person should do it, but I had no idea, it was just a "thought" nothing was set in stone, or is an exact science.
Roth, I'm sorry this hits a sore spot with you, but you're chasing ghosts with this one because you can seriously say this about ANYTHING related to games/gray market, etc. These games are abandoned, and I am trying to get them to you guys WITHOUT losing my hat on these games. That's it. Nothing more. I'm not trying to do best offers on eBay with expensive priced sealed games or trying to make 5x my money on something I bought right on this forum with things and reselling them on the Buy/Sell thread, so you should really reconsider your thoughts on this subject. No one ever said these games would "not" be dumped if I did not get the money. They just would not be released. I think you just did not read anything mentioned carefully about the items I have and came to your own assumptions/conclusions.
This is a marketplace folks. He brings the item to the market place, if people don't want to pay the price then it doesn't sell. Pretty simple
The cut your losses comment is a joke as well (no offense), it his game and he is free to do with it as he wants.
Do you expect for him to do it for free and devalue the cost of the proto, and have him be out thousands?
Yes, I'm sure dumping a game could devalue it to some extent, but how much really? The fact remains that dumped or not, its still 1-of-a-kind and serious collectors will still drool over it. You can get a ROM of any game you want free, but all of us drops thousands of dollars so we can own physical copies of the games despite that.
Selling a dump for what you paid for the actual physical item is basically just a way of getting the item for free by making everyone else pay for it for you in my eyes.
Yes, I'm sure dumping a game could devalue it to some extent, but how much really? The fact remains that dumped or not, its still 1-of-a-kind and serious collectors will still drool over it.
There are many years of history in both NES and Atari to show the drop is massive. Previous $2-3K protos are instantly turned into $300-500 protos when dumped. It is still 1 of a kind, but far fewer of the serious collectors will pay serious money.
Yes, I'm sure dumping a game could devalue it to some extent, but how much really? The fact remains that dumped or not, its still 1-of-a-kind and serious collectors will still drool over it.
There are many years of history in both NES and Atari to show the drop is massive. Previous $2-3K protos are instantly turned into $300-500 protos when dumped. It is still 1 of a kind, but far fewer of the serious collectors will pay serious money.
Everyone wants "undumped" protos. No one is willing to pay the same amount for something already dumped. That's the "true" one of a kind if no one else is able to play it, hence why if you say you have X game, half the people don't care because the ROM is available. Bunnyboy is right, though...the demand is for the "undumped" property, and once it is dumped, the hardcores are just not as interested anymore. Think about it. No one EVER asks if I will sell my "dumped" unreleased protos.
The only thing I wish we could see is lots of dumps of other protos Jason has of games that are released. I would personally love to see the differences on all those games. I wouldn't imagine the value of a released game's proto cart being devalued too much, but I am could be flat out wrong.
My only input on this would be, if I never planned on selling the proto I have in my hands, I think I would just dump it. I wouldn't care what the market value on something I would never sell is anyway; I would have bought it for the one of a kind that it is. This statement is not intended at Jason or anyone, just an opinion. I appreciate that he is at least willing to bring this to the market instead of just selling it to another collector who never wants to see it dumped. I know there are some collectors out there who do this and I am more upset about that then someone actually giving the community a chance to see a release.
I dont disagree with what your doing, you have the right to gain what ever profits you want. You are though, seeking profits. You are a stiff business man, and there is nothing wrong with that. I often hear you telling people.. "no im not selling this for market value, if you want this, then you have to pay my price.". Just be honest though. Your telling the community, if they want to own just a rom image of a physical item you payed thousands for, then they have to pay your tab, the price of a physical cart (which they dont recieve), and you still get the game for your collection.. pretty much for free.
Now I know I may sound like im against you, but honestly thats not the case. I am happy to see these things being released. If I had the money, I would be on the donators list.
V V V Just kidding, but I thought this was funny
If the community has to pay the price of the cart, why cant Dain just
get the cart, and keep it his place, take pictures, document and all
for Nintendoage. Youll still have a copy of the rom for yourself, and you can always purchase a repro from the community. If your not seeking a gain, then thats an even exchange.. we pay for the cart and get the cart.
If you wanna see unreleased protos, you gotta pay
If you don't wanna pay, just ignore it.
Most of the unreleased proto collectors aren't gonna just give them up for free.
DreamTR is not the only person with unreleased stuff
You never even know alot of it exists because their owners don't even want to deal topic we're discussing now. They keep their secrets with them. It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks. It's up to the proto's owner what happens to a proto. I'm personally surprised Jason even wants to deal with the issue at all when he could just as easy not even tell people what he has and people would have to go on wondering and dreaming if a proto exists or if they may someday be able to play.
If that were the case you'd never get to play Campus Challenge, or any of the other unique games he has.
Campus Challenge brings up a pretty good point. Is it possible to arrange something like that with War on Wheels? I would be willing to bet that the Campus Challenge he has is worth a ton even after the repros that Bunnyboy made (awesome product by the way!). Is there any chance to working out a deal like that again? Sorry if this has been discussed before, I didn't see it.
That's what I was saying before. I know there are collectors out there that have copies of games that have never seen the light of day. I would even wager that there are other copies of War on Wheels in someone's hands, but at least we are given a chance to play this game.
Campus Challenge brings up a pretty good point. Is it possible to arrange something like that with War on Wheels? I would be willing to bet that the Campus Challenge he has is worth a ton even after the repros that Bunnyboy made (awesome product by the way!). Is there any chance to working out a deal like that again? Sorry if this has been discussed before, I didn't see it.
I think it's different because I don't know if anyone can really replicate the Campus Challenge cart easily. War on Wheels, someone could dump that in no time flat. Not sure at all, but I think NCC can't just be dumped easily.
That's what I was saying before. I know there are collectors out there that have copies of games that have never seen the light of day. I would even wager that there are other copies of War on Wheels in someone's hands, but at least we are given a chance to play this game.
Campus Challenge brings up a pretty good point. Is it possible to arrange something like that with War on Wheels? I would be willing to bet that the Campus Challenge he has is worth a ton even after the repros that Bunnyboy made (awesome product by the way!). Is there any chance to working out a deal like that again? Sorry if this has been discussed before, I didn't see it.
I think it's different because I don't know if anyone can really replicate the Campus Challenge cart easily. War on Wheels, someone could dump that in no time flat. Not sure at all, but I think NCC can't just be dumped easily.
Yeah, didn't think about that. Maybe something could be arranged that X amount preorders though retrousb would have to be filled for the repro cart to recoup the asking price. For example, selling 100 copies of a CIB game at $50 profit. Once all the orders were paid, the cart would be dumped and CIB produced....probably not feasible, but just wishing out loud again....
I see nothing wrong here. If Dream wants XXXX to dump something then so be it. If the market commands the premium for it then Dream will get XXXX for dumping that information. I consider Dream to be a bit of a RATIONAL ECONOMIST in that he's willing to sell information and thus devalue his game (i'm sure you could even buy the game off him for a bit more) .... a lot of people WON'T sell from their own personal items no matter how much you offer. So Kudos on that .... if the unreleased game isn't worth your money ... don't DONATE ... I repeat DO NOT DONATE if the game isn't worth it to you .... DON'T FEEL PRESSURED by the community in that YOU HAVE TO DONATE for a release .... Dream would never pressure you, but to him the value of x content is worth x .... can't blame a man for OFFERING something that not all people would offer. Try trying to buy games off certain people in the forum and you'll understand the meaning of certain items are not for sale and sometimes that means EVER.
Just 2 cents from a shadow lurker: Seriously this topic would be closed or deleted if somebody else then respected member Roth made this comment.I might be completly wrong here but i think this is not only about dumping unreleased nes games.
Im more lurker then poster but when i read topics and stuff like no thread crapping it seems like people say: you are all going to like this and don't you dare to say different in this thread. ( eat communism)And that frustrates people that think different.
About the unreleased game:This drama earns a movie ending,so 1 of the programmes please join NA now and claim copyright.Settle it the American way (lawsuit)win and sell the game on wii virtual console.
JOKE
Seriously somebody pay the man and get this over with.
What I want to say real quick is no, it's not SPECIFICALLY targeted at you, DreamTR. I will say that the business practices in question have been what you have presented so far, though. This is about what is going on now, and what may happen in the future. So while it _may_ look like it's targeted towards you, it's not. It's the happenings at this point and time.
Also, all of what I posted in the first post aren't all MY feelings. I have just been reading and assessing, and these are the points I have seen brought up. The one that concerned me the most, which prompted me to go ahead and start this thread, was point #4... informing the buyer(s) of what they are paying for.
If we're going to talk about just you at this point in the thread, then alrighty!
You've already gotten a good chunk of change out of two different protos; seriously, you know people are going to pay. There should be no reason to _not_ inform everyone of any differences or what "graphical updates" there are. Also, the preserving history thing kind of gets to me too. I mean, everyone else seems stoked about keeping the history alive, or whatever, but it seems like there _has_ to be a price to get it dumped, which I _do_ think is kinda bogus. Others may feel different.
Whatever. That is the point of this thread, to discuss if there are better ways to go about this or not. Sorry if you took this as an attack on you, but it's not. It's for discussion on how these things should be handled now and in the future, no matter the seller.
Anyhow here is what I see happening. A bunch of people are complaining about it, and Jason pulls it off the market, or gets an offer he can't refuse for an undumped cart. Everyone will be up in arms about the game not being released for the everyone to play blah blah blah
Again I have no issue with what he is doing
I'm in a split decision about this topic. I released Escape from Atlantis years ago and received a good deal of "love" (don't get me wrong on this) from NES fans back then which was awsome. But I did get a punch in the stomach money wise as I doubt anyone would be prepared to pay serious money for Escape from Atlantis today, so devalue is definately in place.
So I definately won't be doing another free release of NES stuff, there's just too much money lost when doing that - just like DreamTR I would expect to be paid/compensated for releasing one of a kind stuff and I'm setting the price.
I have earlier thought of doing a cart release of a one of a kind game I have, Defectors - a 4 player Berzerk like game by Equilibrium who made Peter Pan for the NES as well as a handful of GB games. But a cart release is just too much work for me to take on, also considering the fact that I'm located in Europe and shipping cost could kill off potential sales to American collectors. Therefore a one time payment would definately be a better option if my NES game had to be released to the public.
5000 USD for a ROM dump does seem like a lot, especially as the NWC didn't cost DreamTR that kind of money - but it's his prototype so he sets the price, even if the price smells of greed I'd probably do the same.
If anyone would want to have Defectors or Cuestick released then you know where to find me, but Defectors definately won't come cheap either (not 5k though) - and no one has asked sofar anyway :-)
As far as I know Defectors was Equilibrium's first attempt at a NES game, the game was never sold to a publisher as the programmer left before it was completed and I guess they didn't bother finding someone else to do it. I recently played through the entire game and there's 99 levels madness before reaching the "congratulations" screen.
Oh and the roms aren't watermarked... sorry
Dream - From an investment standpoint, I have no problem with what you're doing, since you seem to be able to do it.
My ONLY complaint, is that you don't seem willing to do "due diligence" with regards to elaborating on notable differences, etc, for titles that people are ready to pony up dough for. Then again, you have a HUGE collection, so obviously it's not realistic in all cases. But I would expect it could only help with regards to final sales if people knew what they were getting.
People who just gives and gives and gives doesn't get very far in life. However, it's not good to be cheap either, but what's cheap about even offering us the chance to play a one-of-a-kind game?
Roth, like I said before, I never said I was not going to get these DUMPED for myself, I just won't RELEASE them, that's the point. Yes, a lot of my stuff is NOT saved yet, but some of the most important things ARE saved, so it's not a "hostage" dumping price.
And like I said about the "graphical updates", they are very minor, it's not like Xbox Live complete redux on stuff. This is 8 bit 1985 to 1989 on a shooter we are talking here, and again, as for differences that you are paying for, I can't figure out all the differences and don't have time to, plain and simple. Tyson had more differences than I thought, and I don't exactly have time to dig through 4 storage bins to get to one copy of Exerion, put it in my Twin Famicom and play that for an hour then do the same for Exerion II documenting everything. It's not THAT much different, they call it Exerion II, but like I said, it's EXERION overhaul with new title screen and the changes they were trying to make for 1989 market....
If I had all the time in the world, I would document everything, and price it MUCH higher if I did so for the time involved, so you have to look at it that way....and like I said before, people would ask me for differences on a $30 disk proto, same thing..you won't make everyone happy. My prices are what they are...either you get something golden, or it's the same as released you take a chance, but for this, I told you exactly what I know, so I think I'm doing my part on this. The PR person I got this from, those were his exact words on the game. So I checked it out the first couple of levels YEARS ago, and they were minor graphical upgrades and different sounds on some stuff including the title screen IIRC, but there could be more, who knows....
People are always going to say what they want about protos because 99% of the NIntendo community does NOT collect them. Yes I collect these for myself, but that's MY BUSINESS. Can't use that against me if I am wilkling to release something. I don't see people lining up selling their Stadium Events or Panesians to the community to help out those in need at costs lower than what they go for or what they paid. They're available on ROMS or REPROS! WHat if someone really wants it? People aren't going to give away their possessions, and I always hated that about people saying everything should be dumped for free, but that's not really the question here. I've done what I can on these things, and if people want to see more stuff (SNES unreleased or Game Boy unreleased stuff) it really is going to depend on if this continues to go well here. I want to help out, but in turn I'm not going to lose out for the time and effort I put into locating/acquiring these items.
of course i haven't paid thousands of dollars for a rare cart let alone a single dollar to get a rom dumped.... so i suppose i can't complain