I know somebody whose parents (who were Christians) let their child believe in anything they want when he stared to complain about being raised in a Christian home. They also told their child you can't believe in "nothing" and get all the benefits of having Christian holidays. They said no Christmas gifts no Christmas dinner and no Easter meals. He got mad. Really mad, when on Christmas morning he didn't get anything. Not one single thing. He wanted those things but didn't want the faith that goes along with them. Not that the gifts have anything to do with Christ, but it is part of the tradition. They said they were willing to support any faith he wanted by celebrating the holidays of that religion if he became a firm believer in it.
At first I thought They were trying to force him to become a Christian (which I proudly call myself), but am against. But the more I thought about it, I believe they want him to make up his mind on what he finds out for himself. Different way, yep. Do I think it wrong? Don't know. I think what they did had some merit.
I think if a child is old enough not to want to go to church because they don't believe it, they are obviously old enough to get the point of not getting gifts for a holiday they dont believe in.
I have a question I would like to pose with out being a troll in any way because it interests me. Based on the the X-mas thing. Doesnt that defeat the purpose of being Christian? For me X-mas is a time of love and caring although I am not a devout christian nor were my parents (dis-fellowshiped Jehovah witness/Roman Catholic)we still celebrated X-mas. To me doing what you suggest is the same thing as saying believe what we believe or we don't love you. I would be curious to see what they would do if the person said ok I want to be a Buddhist and Buddhism allows me to celebrate other religious holidays. For a parent to follow through with such a threat and not get their child anything for a global holiday is quite sickening (to me at least). Everyone celebrates X-mas not just Christians that's why its called X-mas on TV. The Christian version of X-mas is Christmas which is really just a mass to prey to Christ, presents have nothing to do with the holiday at all. Gifts are obviously being used as a threat.
P.S. Sorry for entering the topic again I was lurking and that intrigued me. Also on a side note I dont quite see how dragonlunch presented himself poorly.He probably came off as Christian bashing but realistically he could of used any religion in a effort to make his point. Also he ended it with "- end jackass rant" so he obviously knew he was being arrogant. I dont think you guys are being very fair saying that its only ok to attempt to prove religion but if someone attempts to disprove it, it is no longer civil. It either has to be all ok or none of it can and the topic should be locked. We all have the freedom of speech so no one should be ridiculed for having an opinion. Obviously your can argue your opinion but you cant outright say that someone is more uncivil then anyone else on the form? I mean if you want to get into history Christians are famous for calling people "uncivil" (Native Americans/Canadians) and forcing religion upon them. I understand that mega churches may not be how any one of you worship your deity but many Americans,Canadians,Mexicans,Europeans ect ect. do, it is because of this Dragon Lunch used that example. Obviously one will always use the most extreme example to make a point. It happens all the time on both ends of atheism and theism. He didn't (that I could see) call out anyone for what they believe in he just was generalizing about organized religion which many of you don't seem to be a part of and therefore should not be insulted in the first place?
P.P.S Anyways sorry again and I hope I didn't come across as trolling because I certainly attempted to remain...hmm whats the word Civil?
Actually, Chris, it's called "X-mas" because the "X" is the Greek chi and actually stands for "Christ". Calling it "X-mas" implies an inherently Christian theme to the holiday.
As for the generalizations...they're just flat out incorrect and unrepresentative of the majority of Christians. It would be like me generalizing 100% of Muslims as being Jihadists. Are all Jihadists Muslim? yes...are all Muslims Jihadists? Absolutely not.
I have a question I would like to pose with out being a troll in any way because it interests me. Based on the the X-mas thing. Doesnt that defeat the purpose of being Christian? For me X-mas is a time of love and caring although I am not a devout christian nor were my parents (dis-fellowshiped Jehovah witness/Roman Catholic)we still celebrated X-mas. To me doing what you suggest is the same thing as saying believe what we believe or we don't love you. I would be curious to see what they would do if the person said ok I want to be a Buddhist and Buddhism allows me to celebrate other religious holidays. For a parent to follow through with such a threat and not get their child anything for a global holiday is quite sickening (to me at least). Everyone celebrates X-mas not just Christians that's why its called X-mas on TV. The Christian version of X-mas is Christmas which is really just a mass to prey to Christ, presents have nothing to do with the holiday at all. Gifts are obviously being used as a threat.
It seems your major point is that, to you Christmas is a time for love and caring ( I have heard that same thing from others as well). Thats fine. You just choose to celebrate that day on a date where Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. You could easily celebrate that day any other day of the year and it still be valid. Why do some people do that? I personally believe that they get caught up in the "Christmas Hype" and don't want to have stories of not getting anything on Christmas morning to their friends at school or work. I have a close friend whose Muslim and she says her family chooses to exchange gifts on that day for that exact reason.
The day where I tell somebody I love them and how much they mean to me is Valentines day, not Christmas. The day in which I celebrate somebody's life is on there birthday, not Christmas. They seem to have other days during the year to celebrate those things, again why celebrate them over again on Christmas? My friend for example, she just doesn't want to be left out. Plain and simple. Those are words from her own mouth. She also points out that all the stores are closed and there is nothing better to do. ( I found that funny)
As far as the friend whose parents didn't get him anything, I am guessing if became a devout Buddhist they would celebrate Christmas with him as long as he observed and celebrated all the other religious holidays. Not just cherry pick the ones where people give him gifts, and ignore the ones where you fast for a month or spend a full week in a temple and have to sacrifice.
You are correct it is a global holiday. A global holiday for Christians. If others care to participate, great. Hanukkah is also a global holiday, a global holiday for the Jews. If i want to light the candles and exchange gifs, great. I just know its not my holiday. It doesn't have a deep meaning to me. I would just be doing it for fun and gifts.
****I personally think religion on forums is a dangerous thing. People get there feeling hurt and think people are talking directly about them, when in fact they are talking generally. I will be bowing out before I offend anybody ( if I haven't already done it- if so sorry) and look forward to seeing you guys on other posts.
Holiday, though the name implys something holy, are not always the case. Memorial day just passed, and it is not religious at all. Being without religion does not mean you cannot celebrate any holiday you want. Christians chose to celebrate their holiday on the 25th to also celebrate a god from the roman religion. Also the idea of giving gifts, and eating a large dinner was also barrowed from Rome in a tradition called the Saturnalia. So Christmas is naturally a multi cultural event. Many people across the world celebrate Christmas, wether or not the are religious, or from a non christian religion. Christmas is certainly a Christian holiday, for the worship of Christ, but the gift giving part of it is not soley Christian. From the beggining, all the way up to modern times.
Linking to the topic. My parents were are both Christian, and I grew up with light influences. When growing up we went to church mostly on holidays only. Before bed my father and I would exchange reading passages in the bible. My mother always made it clear to me though, that religion is an open door, and nothing should be forced on anyone. We always celevrated Christmas of course, but the saying was "If you stop beliving in Santa, you wont get any presents". I was never asked to belive in Christ in order to recieve gifts. My mother always made it clear to me that the part about giving gifts was a diffrent part of Christmas, the religious part was not about recieving, but giving, and not always in a material fashion.
I think being raised that way did influence me early on, but I broke away around the age of 11 my parents split, and there wasnt time for church or bibles, so before my mind was completely molded, I was able to form my own opinoins. I cant deny there is a higher power. I also choose not to accept one books word over another. I must simply wait till the end to find the answers rather then wasting my life on the roll of the dice.
Why do you think that it is wasting one's life to seek to do good out of religious motivations vs any other kind of motivation?
Mother Theresa hardly wasted her life.
Thats true, you can enjoy your life, and also do good. For me though it is a waste, learning, and studying, and praising. Some people may enjoy it. I feel I can still do good without all the studying.
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Haha. I don't have the time to go over the same things again and again. If you want to see one of our debates, just dig up an archived thread
I can only send the same message to deaf ears so many times.
Ditto.
not gonna clog up this thread.
I have a healthy respect for Arch. We obviously have different view points, and we will never see religious things the same way.
I don't see the need to talk about religious viewpoints so much. If you are confident in your beliefs, then leave it be. People that constantly scream out "the truth" (according to them) are probably just unsure if what they are saying really is the truth. I mean...if you know you're right, then you're right, and that's that. It would be like debating on the color of the sky. If someone swears up and down that it's red, you would probably lose interest within minutes. It would simply be pointless to argue. This is how I see supernatural thoughts and beliefs. Now, if you're the type of person who just isn't sure, then debating seems fine. I'm just talking about people that are make a definite choice and are firm in their beliefs.
Also, on the topic of being raised in a certain religion, I think it's fine as long as the child knows the difference between faith and fact. All of the "big" topics in religion (i.e. what happens after death?, is there a God?, ect) are 100% backed up by faith., which is exactly how it should be. No living human will ever prove with logic whether or not some type of God, Creator, Prime Mover, etc. exists, because that would take facts. But! facts don't have a place in religion. You are using the wrong tool to get to where you want to be. People can only use faith to progress through religion, not facts. So, when the parent is reading a story out of a religious text, there should be emphasis on the fact that this may or may not have happened. But, regardless of if it happened the moral of the story should still be noted and used if needed.
Personally, I am just too fact-based and logical to belong to any organized religion. The fact of the matter is there is absolutely no way to know what religion is the right one (or even if any of them are right). It's not the acceptance of a religion that's difficult, it's the denial of every other religion that comes after choosing one religion. It's as if there is a black box and nobody on earth can open it or ever know what's inside, if anything is inside. But, people all over the world begin debating on what REALLY is inside. Some say it's an apple, others say a basketball, some also say it's a shoe, and even some people think nothing is in the box. My point is, since there is no way of getting into the box, then you cannot know for CERTAIN what is in the box! What you think is inside the box is completely relied upon by faith. So, if you were to ask me what's in the box, I would be inclined to say something to the effect of "there's most likely something in the box, but I really cannot be sure what it is". In other words, I'm agnostic.
Also, when I say I don't belong to any one religion, I am not in any way saying that people that DO belong to an organized religion are...wrong, stupid, bad, ignorant, lazy, or any other negative word. If you use religion to help you or others, then all the power to you. If religion has helped you gain purpose in life, then that's incredible. If religion helps you, then I say follow it. But, if you are perfectly ok without it, then don't follow it.
Don't pick (or fail to pick) any one religion. Let it pick you. It really is that simple.
If someone is indoctrinated, then they may not have a real faith, they just feel obligated because that is how they were taught to believe. I think that religion is a very serious thing, and is completely up to the individual to decide how they choose to worship, believe, etc. I think the most important aspect about religious faith is sincerity. If you aren't sincere about your faith, it means nothing, IMO. Indoctrination would lead many people to not be sincere about their faith, and they would continue doing it just out of a feeling of obligation instead of any sincerity. Being sincere is something that cannot be forced or taught, an invidiual has to come to terms with it on their own, that's the only way. I have profound respect for anyone who has a sincere belief in what they believe. I myself have struggeled with this and I haven't felt a real connection to any religion I have been a part of, although I tried my best to understand, I never felt sincere about it.
^^^ That is a valid point. I wouldn't want to truly "indoctrinate" my kids, so much as afford them an environment that shares my values, where they come from, and why my beliefs are important to me.
Comments
At first I thought They were trying to force him to become a Christian (which I proudly call myself), but am against. But the more I thought about it, I believe they want him to make up his mind on what he finds out for himself. Different way, yep. Do I think it wrong? Don't know. I think what they did had some merit.
Edit- left out a word
P.S. Sorry for entering the topic again I was lurking and that intrigued me. Also on a side note I dont quite see how dragonlunch presented himself poorly.He probably came off as Christian bashing but realistically he could of used any religion in a effort to make his point. Also he ended it with "- end jackass rant" so he obviously knew he was being arrogant. I dont think you guys are being very fair saying that its only ok to attempt to prove religion but if someone attempts to disprove it, it is no longer civil. It either has to be all ok or none of it can and the topic should be locked. We all have the freedom of speech so no one should be ridiculed for having an opinion. Obviously your can argue your opinion but you cant outright say that someone is more uncivil then anyone else on the form? I mean if you want to get into history Christians are famous for calling people "uncivil" (Native Americans/Canadians) and forcing religion upon them. I understand that mega churches may not be how any one of you worship your deity but many Americans,Canadians,Mexicans,Europeans ect ect. do, it is because of this Dragon Lunch used that example. Obviously one will always use the most extreme example to make a point. It happens all the time on both ends of atheism and theism. He didn't (that I could see) call out anyone for what they believe in he just was generalizing about organized religion which many of you don't seem to be a part of and therefore should not be insulted in the first place?
P.P.S Anyways sorry again and I hope I didn't come across as trolling because I certainly attempted to remain...hmm whats the word Civil?
As for the generalizations...they're just flat out incorrect and unrepresentative of the majority of Christians. It would be like me generalizing 100% of Muslims as being Jihadists. Are all Jihadists Muslim? yes...are all Muslims Jihadists? Absolutely not.
I have a question I would like to pose with out being a troll in any way because it interests me. Based on the the X-mas thing. Doesnt that defeat the purpose of being Christian? For me X-mas is a time of love and caring although I am not a devout christian nor were my parents (dis-fellowshiped Jehovah witness/Roman Catholic)we still celebrated X-mas. To me doing what you suggest is the same thing as saying believe what we believe or we don't love you. I would be curious to see what they would do if the person said ok I want to be a Buddhist and Buddhism allows me to celebrate other religious holidays. For a parent to follow through with such a threat and not get their child anything for a global holiday is quite sickening (to me at least). Everyone celebrates X-mas not just Christians that's why its called X-mas on TV. The Christian version of X-mas is Christmas which is really just a mass to prey to Christ, presents have nothing to do with the holiday at all. Gifts are obviously being used as a threat.
It seems your major point is that, to you Christmas is a time for love and caring ( I have heard that same thing from others as well). Thats fine. You just choose to celebrate that day on a date where Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. You could easily celebrate that day any other day of the year and it still be valid. Why do some people do that? I personally believe that they get caught up in the "Christmas Hype" and don't want to have stories of not getting anything on Christmas morning to their friends at school or work. I have a close friend whose Muslim and she says her family chooses to exchange gifts on that day for that exact reason.
The day where I tell somebody I love them and how much they mean to me is Valentines day, not Christmas. The day in which I celebrate somebody's life is on there birthday, not Christmas. They seem to have other days during the year to celebrate those things, again why celebrate them over again on Christmas? My friend for example, she just doesn't want to be left out. Plain and simple. Those are words from her own mouth. She also points out that all the stores are closed and there is nothing better to do. ( I found that funny)
As far as the friend whose parents didn't get him anything, I am guessing if became a devout Buddhist they would celebrate Christmas with him as long as he observed and celebrated all the other religious holidays. Not just cherry pick the ones where people give him gifts, and ignore the ones where you fast for a month or spend a full week in a temple and have to sacrifice.
You are correct it is a global holiday. A global holiday for Christians. If others care to participate, great.
Hanukkah is also a global holiday, a global holiday for the Jews. If i want to light the candles and exchange gifs, great. I just know its not my holiday. It doesn't have a deep meaning to me. I would just be doing it for fun and gifts.
****I personally think religion on forums is a dangerous thing. People get there feeling hurt and think people are talking directly about them, when in fact they are talking generally. I will be bowing out before I offend anybody ( if I haven't already done it- if so sorry) and look forward to seeing you guys on other posts.
Linking to the topic. My parents were are both Christian, and I grew up with light influences. When growing up we went to church mostly on holidays only. Before bed my father and I would exchange reading passages in the bible. My mother always made it clear to me though, that religion is an open door, and nothing should be forced on anyone. We always celevrated Christmas of course, but the saying was "If you stop beliving in Santa, you wont get any presents". I was never asked to belive in Christ in order to recieve gifts. My mother always made it clear to me that the part about giving gifts was a diffrent part of Christmas, the religious part was not about recieving, but giving, and not always in a material fashion.
I think being raised that way did influence me early on, but I broke away around the age of 11 my parents split, and there wasnt time for church or bibles, so before my mind was completely molded, I was able to form my own opinoins. I cant deny there is a higher power. I also choose not to accept one books word over another. I must simply wait till the end to find the answers rather then wasting my life on the roll of the dice.
Mother Theresa hardly wasted her life.
I can only send the same message to deaf ears so many times.
Why do you think that it is wasting one's life to seek to do good out of religious motivations vs any other kind of motivation?
Mother Theresa hardly wasted her life.
Thats true, you can enjoy your life, and also do good. For me though it is a waste, learning, and studying, and praising. Some people may enjoy it. I feel I can still do good without all the studying.
Haha.
I don't have the time to go over the same things again and again. If
you want to see one of our debates, just dig up an archived thread
I can only send the same message to deaf ears so many times.
Ditto.
not gonna clog up this thread.
I have a healthy respect for Arch. We obviously have different view points, and we will never see religious things the same way.
Diversity brightens the world.
Also, on the topic of being raised in a certain religion, I think it's fine as long as the child knows the difference between faith and fact. All of the "big" topics in religion (i.e. what happens after death?, is there a God?, ect) are 100% backed up by faith., which is exactly how it should be. No living human will ever prove with logic whether or not some type of God, Creator, Prime Mover, etc. exists, because that would take facts. But! facts don't have a place in religion. You are using the wrong tool to get to where you want to be. People can only use faith to progress through religion, not facts. So, when the parent is reading a story out of a religious text, there should be emphasis on the fact that this may or may not have happened. But, regardless of if it happened the moral of the story should still be noted and used if needed.
Personally, I am just too fact-based and logical to belong to any organized religion. The fact of the matter is there is absolutely no way to know what religion is the right one (or even if any of them are right). It's not the acceptance of a religion that's difficult, it's the denial of every other religion that comes after choosing one religion. It's as if there is a black box and nobody on earth can open it or ever know what's inside, if anything is inside. But, people all over the world begin debating on what REALLY is inside. Some say it's an apple, others say a basketball, some also say it's a shoe, and even some people think nothing is in the box. My point is, since there is no way of getting into the box, then you cannot know for CERTAIN what is in the box! What you think is inside the box is completely relied upon by faith. So, if you were to ask me what's in the box, I would be inclined to say something to the effect of "there's most likely something in the box, but I really cannot be sure what it is". In other words, I'm agnostic.
Also, when I say I don't belong to any one religion, I am not in any way saying that people that DO belong to an organized religion are...wrong, stupid, bad, ignorant, lazy, or any other negative word. If you use religion to help you or others, then all the power to you. If religion has helped you gain purpose in life, then that's incredible. If religion helps you, then I say follow it. But, if you are perfectly ok without it, then don't follow it.
Don't pick (or fail to pick) any one religion. Let it pick you. It really is that simple.