Dunno, but I do know the powers that be have already taken measures to prevent the use of game genies, powerpaks with modified ROMS and such.
Pretty sure they won't stop ALL cheaters, if somebody really wanted to....but pretty sure they have stopped me from figuring out a way around the system.
Or someone could always use an Arduino NESbot to stream tool assisted speedruns, assuming the AVS is cycle accurate...
Can you do that on an orignal cart or with an original ROM?
Basically, if the guys have not loaded the ROM, it will not reconize the score...or so I am thinking.
NESbot works by using an Arduino or other microcontroller to stream a series of inputs through the controller port on every frame when the NES polls the controller. If the emulator is cycle accurate for a given title and initialization values match, the speed run or score attack movie can be streamed onto an original console with original game cart and played back live.
Assuming the AVS has some sort of boot menu or otherwise doesn't load the game immediately upon power on, a series of controller inputs necessary to load the game with the correct offset could be appended to the start of the tool assisted movie. The same technique could likely be used to run a tool assisted movie off the Power Pak with the target game pre loaded on it. I've never seen this done via PowerPak but in theory it would be possible.
I'm not condoning cheating, but some asshat hacker with a lot of free time on his hands could probably pull it off. TAS speedrunning on real hardware didn't destroy the Speed Demos Archive or taint Twin Galaxies high score records, so it probalbly won't effect the NA scoreboard database.
I think it would be a good idea in addition to checksums, for the AVS to stream the controller inputs to the server along with the frame count and score data, so any hardware, software, or network tampering would be detectable. If a submitted score is suspect, the controller dump could be played back to verify it's authenticity. Also would be neat to allow the total frame count (including lagged frames) prior to triggering a specific event be posted to scoreboard as well, for speedrunning purposes. IE fastest Super Mario Brothers speed run with or without warps, etc...
Even with score attacks, there are rules. Anyone could roll Super Mario Brothers at 9,999,950 pts by abusing the Koopa at the end of World 3-1 and mass suicide the extra lives. Such activity would be prohibited by Twin Galaxy rules.
Even with score attacks, there are rules. Anyone could roll Super Mario Brothers at 9,999,950 pts by abusing the Koopa at the end of World 3-1 and mass suicide the extra lives. Such activity would be prohibited by Twin Galaxy rules.
Fine, here is the solution to cheaters.
The NintendoAge scoreboard system is an online database set up for its members, by its members. In no way is it meant to be a way of establishing world records for submission to outside agencies. It is meant to be a friendly fun compitition for its members. The NA team and RetroUSB will look into any suspect activity in an attempt to cheat the system in any way, Emulator, Game Genie, ROM hacks ect. Those members found to trying to skirt the system will have their scoreboard posting rights taken away, all scored erased and total uploads set to zero.
Any further attempts to use the scoreboard system in any other way than intended will be dealt with more harshly on NA, to include but not limited to forum post limits, temp bans or even removal from the site.
These formentioned rules are not all inclusive and can be edited by the NA/RetroUSB team at any time, for any reason.
To be realistic though, I think the easiest way to cheat the scoreboard system would be to hack NA and post your "high scores" without even playing a game (or owning an AVS)
To be realistic though, I think the easiest way to cheat the scoreboard system would be to hack NA and post your "high scores" without even playing a game (or owning an AVS)
Even with score attacks, there are rules. Anyone could roll Super Mario Brothers at 9,999,950 pts by abusing the Koopa at the end of World 3-1 and mass suicide the extra lives. Such activity would be prohibited by Twin Galaxy rules.
Fine, here is the solution to cheaters.
The NintendoAge scoreboard system is an online database set up for its members, by its members. In no way is it meant to be a way of establishing world records for submission to outside agencies. It is meant to be a friendly fun compitition for its members. The NA team and RetroUSB will look into any suspect activity in an attempt to cheat the system in any way, Emulator, Game Genie, ROM hacks ect. Those members found to trying to skirt the system will have their scoreboard posting rights taken away, all scored erased and total uploads set to zero.
Any further attempts to use the scoreboard system in any other way than intended will be dealt with more harshly on NA, to include but not limited to forum post limits, temp bans or even removal from the site.
These formentioned rules are not all inclusive and can be edited by the NA/RetroUSB team at any time, for any reason.
Will that work for ya?
Not good enough, whose to say my score data won't be sold to 3rd party companies or even worse, released to the NSA?!?
I don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, or if it's even worth it to do so (not sure how much I'd get from upscaling from 720p to 1080p), but how does this look when it's A/V is run through the XRGB Mini?
I don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, or if it's even worth it to do so (not sure how much I'd get from upscaling from 720p to 1080p), but how does this look when it's A/V is run through the XRGB Mini?
I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but personally I don't think there would be any reason to do so. I love my XRGB Mini but I don't see what the benefit would be here, especially when the AVS itself supports scanlines and the tv/monitor you're sending it to will scale the image as needed. Generally you only run HDMI devices through a Mini if it's set to pass through, not for any processing. At least from what I've read from others that is.
I don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, or if it's even worth it to do so (not sure how much I'd get from upscaling from 720p to 1080p), but how does this look when it's A/V is run through the XRGB Mini?
It's digital HDMI, not analog RGB. No Xrgb or Framemeister necessary.
AVS uses 720p output because 720p is an integer multiple of 240p. The 256 pixel horizontal resolution will also be scaled at a user selectable integer ratio to 768x720p (3:3), 1024x720p (4:3), or 1280x720p (5:3). Any scaling artifacts on your HDTV/Monitor will be minimal because it's scaling from 720p to 1080p or whatever, not 240p/480i. Pixels will still appear razor sharp with minimal artifacts/lag. Scanlines will also have a meatier effect in 720p because the bars will occupy 2/3 of the picture instead of 1/2 like with 480 upscale. Here's what I imagine the 720p output will look like with 4:3 pixel aspect,http://sta.sh/02bb7cc9dt06
and zoomed in 4x pixel detail on the resultant display:
You are not going to notice any blurring or scaling artifacts. If you see any scaling artifacts in the above images, it's the browser formatting. Right click and view in new window.
That's what I figured. While I'd like 1080p out of the AVS (assuming I get one), 720p is still great.
Yeah I think he said it wouldn't be possible without an more expensive FPGA. As stardust4ever said though, it's going to look razor sharp, so no need for the Mini IMO. I'd treat it like any other HD console, since that's what it'll be really.
is there a possibility of the cart interfacing with the adapter to download new levels or something similar? I have an idea for that.
Yes! But that is computer/NA side software that has barely been started! Nothing else needs to be done on the console side (I hope).
Originally posted by: stardust4ever
Does the scoreboard log inputs? This would make it possible to verify the high score data independantly to ensure the user is not tampering with the game, device, or network connection.
No! That wouldn't help at all, because the person tampering can just fake those too. There is no system that can beat all cheaters, but the easy cheats are taken care of.
Originally posted by: PolarBear
So when does this dream come true?
Soon! If you close the door with pressure in a certain direction it makes a clicking sound, and its too annoying to me so there needs to be a small toolling change. The NES cart socket also needs some work so the first ~5 insertions aren't death grip. Hopefully that lets the (sold separately) wireless controllers catch up. Don't think I will quite have a sample from tooling at PRGE unless they delay the expo a couple weeks
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
Understood, though I think there are a number of us who are willing to do so as soon as orders open up.
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
Do you have a final price yet? Is it still in the $150-$200 ballpark? I need to know how much to save up for this. And don't say $899. I don't do Neo geo...
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
Do you have a final price yet? Is it still in the $150-$200 ballpark? I need to know how much to save up for this. And don't say $899. I don't do Neo geo...
Stray question: Does the AVS still support Famicom games in the back? All the pictures seem to only show US games in the system.
Yes. The Famicom is inserted vertically underneath where you plug the NES cart in. The cart connectors are at right angles to each other preventing dual insertion.
Made a quick pict as a rebuttal to RVGS. Lines up with the numbers from kevtris, which is expected because we aren't trying to inflate everything to get more cash There are plenty more proto boards and 3d prints, I need someone to write a book... http://www.retrousb.com/images/AVSdev.jpg
And since those are my "clean" boards, heres what a real in development one looks like with wires and chips going everywhere: http://www.retrousb.com/images/AVSdev2.jpg
Comments
Originally posted by: Benihana
Originally posted by: stardust4ever
Originally posted by: Benihana
Dunno, but I do know the powers that be have already taken measures to prevent the use of game genies, powerpaks with modified ROMS and such.
Pretty sure they won't stop ALL cheaters, if somebody really wanted to....but pretty sure they have stopped me from figuring out a way around the system.
Or someone could always use an Arduino NESbot to stream tool assisted speedruns, assuming the AVS is cycle accurate...
Can you do that on an orignal cart or with an original ROM?
Basically, if the guys have not loaded the ROM, it will not reconize the score...or so I am thinking.
NESbot works by using an Arduino or other microcontroller to stream a series of inputs through the controller port on every frame when the NES polls the controller. If the emulator is cycle accurate for a given title and initialization values match, the speed run or score attack movie can be streamed onto an original console with original game cart and played back live.
Assuming the AVS has some sort of boot menu or otherwise doesn't load the game immediately upon power on, a series of controller inputs necessary to load the game with the correct offset could be appended to the start of the tool assisted movie. The same technique could likely be used to run a tool assisted movie off the Power Pak with the target game pre loaded on it. I've never seen this done via PowerPak but in theory it would be possible.
I'm not condoning cheating, but some asshat hacker with a lot of free time on his hands could probably pull it off. TAS speedrunning on real hardware didn't destroy the Speed Demos Archive or taint Twin Galaxies high score records, so it probalbly won't effect the NA scoreboard database.
I think it would be a good idea in addition to checksums, for the AVS to stream the controller inputs to the server along with the frame count and score data, so any hardware, software, or network tampering would be detectable. If a submitted score is suspect, the controller dump could be played back to verify it's authenticity. Also would be neat to allow the total frame count (including lagged frames) prior to triggering a specific event be posted to scoreboard as well, for speedrunning purposes. IE fastest Super Mario Brothers speed run with or without warps, etc...
Originally posted by: stardust4ever
Or someone could always use an Arduino NESbot to stream tool assisted speedruns, assuming the AVS is cycle accurate...
Tool assisted speedrun bots don't matter much since the score board tracks high scores right now, not completion time.
I am thinking if a member is speedrunning they are not trying for a high score, therefore the score would not be worth uploading.
The AVS has a high score tracker, not a timer tracker.
Originally posted by: stardust4ever
Even with score attacks, there are rules. Anyone could roll Super Mario Brothers at 9,999,950 pts by abusing the Koopa at the end of World 3-1 and mass suicide the extra lives. Such activity would be prohibited by Twin Galaxy rules.
Fine, here is the solution to cheaters.
The NintendoAge scoreboard system is an online database set up for its members, by its members. In no way is it meant to be a way of establishing world records for submission to outside agencies. It is meant to be a friendly fun compitition for its members. The NA team and RetroUSB will look into any suspect activity in an attempt to cheat the system in any way, Emulator, Game Genie, ROM hacks ect. Those members found to trying to skirt the system will have their scoreboard posting rights taken away, all scored erased and total uploads set to zero.
Any further attempts to use the scoreboard system in any other way than intended will be dealt with more harshly on NA, to include but not limited to forum post limits, temp bans or even removal from the site.
These formentioned rules are not all inclusive and can be edited by the NA/RetroUSB team at any time, for any reason.
Will that work for ya?
To be realistic though, I think the easiest way to cheat the scoreboard system would be to hack NA and post your "high scores" without even playing a game (or owning an AVS)
shh, don't tell people my evil plans!
Even with score attacks, there are rules. Anyone could roll Super Mario Brothers at 9,999,950 pts by abusing the Koopa at the end of World 3-1 and mass suicide the extra lives. Such activity would be prohibited by Twin Galaxy rules.
Fine, here is the solution to cheaters.
The NintendoAge scoreboard system is an online database set up for its members, by its members. In no way is it meant to be a way of establishing world records for submission to outside agencies. It is meant to be a friendly fun compitition for its members. The NA team and RetroUSB will look into any suspect activity in an attempt to cheat the system in any way, Emulator, Game Genie, ROM hacks ect. Those members found to trying to skirt the system will have their scoreboard posting rights taken away, all scored erased and total uploads set to zero.
Any further attempts to use the scoreboard system in any other way than intended will be dealt with more harshly on NA, to include but not limited to forum post limits, temp bans or even removal from the site.
These formentioned rules are not all inclusive and can be edited by the NA/RetroUSB team at any time, for any reason.
Will that work for ya?
Not good enough, whose to say my score data won't be sold to 3rd party companies or even worse, released to the NSA?!?
I don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, or if it's even worth it to do so (not sure how much I'd get from upscaling from 720p to 1080p), but how does this look when it's A/V is run through the XRGB Mini?
I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but personally I don't think there would be any reason to do so. I love my XRGB Mini but I don't see what the benefit would be here, especially when the AVS itself supports scanlines and the tv/monitor you're sending it to will scale the image as needed. Generally you only run HDMI devices through a Mini if it's set to pass through, not for any processing. At least from what I've read from others that is.
I don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, or if it's even worth it to do so (not sure how much I'd get from upscaling from 720p to 1080p), but how does this look when it's A/V is run through the XRGB Mini?
It's digital HDMI, not analog RGB. No Xrgb or Framemeister necessary.
AVS uses 720p output because 720p is an integer multiple of 240p. The 256 pixel horizontal resolution will also be scaled at a user selectable integer ratio to 768x720p (3:3), 1024x720p (4:3), or 1280x720p (5:3). Any scaling artifacts on your HDTV/Monitor will be minimal because it's scaling from 720p to 1080p or whatever, not 240p/480i. Pixels will still appear razor sharp with minimal artifacts/lag. Scanlines will also have a meatier effect in 720p because the bars will occupy 2/3 of the picture instead of 1/2 like with 480 upscale. Here's what I imagine the 720p output will look like with 4:3 pixel aspect,
and upscaled to 1920x1080 using bilinear filtering,
and zoomed in 4x pixel detail on the resultant display:
You are not going to notice any blurring or scaling artifacts. If you see any scaling artifacts in the above images, it's the browser formatting. Right click and view in new window.
That's what I figured. While I'd like 1080p out of the AVS (assuming I get one), 720p is still great.
Yeah I think he said it wouldn't be possible without an more expensive FPGA. As stardust4ever said though, it's going to look razor sharp, so no need for the Mini IMO. I'd treat it like any other HD console, since that's what it'll be really.
-Edgar Allen Poe
So when does this dream come true?
The Road Not Taken
BY ROBERT FROST
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Morris Bishop (1893-1973)
I think I remember this moorland,
The tower on the top of the tor;
I feel in the distance another existence:
I think I have been here before.
And I think you were sitting beside me,
In a fold in the face of the fell,
For Time at its work'll go round in a circle,
And what is befalling, befell.
"I have been here before!" I asserted,
In a nook on a neck of the Nile.
I once in a crisis was punished by Isis,
And you smiled. I remember your smile.
I had the same sense of persistence
On the site of the seat of the Sioux;
I heard in the teepee the sound of a sleepy
Pleistocene grunt. It was you.
The past made a promise, before it
Began to begin to begone.
This limited gamut brings you again. Damn it,
How long has this got to go on?
Violets are blue
I want the AVS
Now shut up and take my money
is there a possibility of the cart interfacing with the adapter to download new levels or something similar? I have an idea for that.
Yes! But that is computer/NA side software that has barely been started! Nothing else needs to be done on the console side (I hope).
Does the scoreboard log inputs? This would make it possible to verify the high score data independantly to ensure the user is not tampering with the game, device, or network connection.
No! That wouldn't help at all, because the person tampering can just fake those too. There is no system that can beat all cheaters, but the easy cheats are taken care of.
So when does this dream come true?
Soon! If you close the door with pressure in a certain direction it makes a clicking sound, and its too annoying to me so there needs to be a small toolling change. The NES cart socket also needs some work so the first ~5 insertions aren't death grip. Hopefully that lets the (sold separately) wireless controllers catch up. Don't think I will quite have a sample from tooling at PRGE unless they delay the expo a couple weeks
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
Understood, though I think there are a number of us who are willing to do so as soon as orders open up.
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
Do you have a final price yet? Is it still in the $150-$200 ballpark? I need to know how much to save up for this. And don't say $899. I don't do Neo geo...
I really don't want to take preorder money without at least a ship date, but Portland is people who get to see it in person, so that is the current debate...
Do you have a final price yet? Is it still in the $150-$200 ballpark? I need to know how much to save up for this. And don't say $899. I don't do Neo geo...
For you? He'll go $898.
Stray question: Does the AVS still support Famicom games in the back? All the pictures seem to only show US games in the system.
Yes. The Famicom is inserted vertically underneath where you plug the NES cart in. The cart connectors are at right angles to each other preventing dual insertion.