Even native panels will do crop/rescale if they think there is overscan too. Sometimes the setting to get 1:1 is hidden or unavailable. Basically the TV decides to do whatever it wants
Here is a vid of every scaling option for the AVS+TV I use most, pick whatever you think looks best! The 2 composite options are also included so you can see how horrid they look. You might want to watch on youtube so you can change to higher res and larger.
Or if you want higher res photos in the same order, http://www.retrousb.com/images/AVS-Scaling.jpg (15MB) I use #15 which is 4:3 AVS scaling (middle integer) then wide mode on the TV. Ends up with a ~1.32:1 pixel which is at the max of the CRTs I have measured but fills the screen nicely. My opinion is always the only correct answer, so I am right!
Even native panels will do crop/rescale if they think there is overscan too. Sometimes the setting to get 1:1 is hidden or unavailable. Basically the TV decides to do whatever it wants
Here is a vid of every scaling option for the AVS+TV I use most, pick whatever you think looks best! The 2 composite options are also included so you can see how horrid they look. You might want to watch on youtube so you can change to higher res and larger.
Or if you want higher res photos in the same order, http://www.retrousb.com/images/AV... (15MB) I use #15 which is 4:3 AVS scaling (middle integer) then wide mode on the TV. Ends up with a ~1.32:1 pixel which is at the max of the CRTs I have measured but fills the screen nicely. My opinion is always the only correct answer, so I am right!
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
It might help if you list out in what way each one of the 21 pictures is wrong. #0 is obvious, hopefully two others are too. Got the list started here, copy/paste should work: http://pastebin.com/wMd2f0R7
Here is an interesting site for anyone worried about display lag. As far as I can tell image processing is taken into account with their grading scale.
So notice that there's more fractions that you can fit into the 1080p screen. For the horizontal, 720p moves in increments of 1/5, but for 1080p moves in increments of 2/15 which is a bit smaller. This gives the user more choices for screen scaling, which is why he found 1080p to scale a little better for him/herself.
The choice most people would be comfortable for horizontal scaling would be somewhere between 3/5 and 4/5, and while 720p only has those two choices, 1080p has 8/15, 2/3, and 4/5, so those may be easier on the eyes to some.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
so for someone without much knowledge on these type of things what's he getting at can someone show a comparison.
so for someone without much knowledge on these type of things what's he getting at can someone show a comparison.
I think you want a black and white "this is right, this is wrong" answer, and there isn't one. When you say the My Life in Gaming dudes can't get the 720p to look right, THAT'S THEIR OPINION!
In the video you posted where they said that the "4" setting looked wide, it looked fine TO ME, and he said the skinny looked better, but I disagree. That's pretty much what it is. Whatever you think. SnoopKatt put it best.
Originally posted by: SnoopKatt
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
And different CRTs don't have the same aspect ratio with the same input signal, and even one CRT doesn't have the same aspect on the top of the screen as the middle. If there was actually one correct answer then neither system would need any configuration for personal preference!
The amount of number crunching here is becoming laughable. Seriously, do all these minute details matter so long as it works via HDMI and looks anything better than factory original? (Aside to all the other cool stuff it does). There is more concerning variance in our eyeballs and TV sets.
The amount of number crunching here is becoming laughable. Seriously, do all these minute details matter so long as it works via HDMI and looks anything better than factory original? (Aside to all the other cool stuff it does). There is more concerning variance in our eyeballs and TV sets.
All that really matters in the long run for the user is if they are happy with the picture quality (everything boils down to subjectivity), and as much as we are annoyed by the questions supersaiyajingodgoku (no offense) asked, he/she did ask a good question: why did MLIG find a scaling setting they liked at 1080p and not 720p (while maintaining square pixels)? And while we can say "it's up to the user!" over and over again, there's a little math that's needed to explain why, especially if someone doesn't understand that more pixels that the display has means more integer multiples of the source input (which means more choices of course). Now I probably went overboard with the calculations but I thought breaking it down further would help supersaiyajingodgoku understand but it didn't
Originally posted by: bunnyboy
Originally posted by: SnoopKatt
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
And different CRTs don't have the same aspect ratio with the same input signal, and even one CRT doesn't have the same aspect on the top of the screen as the middle. If there was actually one correct answer then neither system would need any configuration for personal preference!
Hell of a lot of variables in play
Originally posted by: supersaiyajingodgoku
i'm not asking for what's right or wrong anymore i just want to see the difference that's all so i can make my own judgement.
You've been given a lot of info! The MLIG video has tons of examples of different settings, and bunnyboy posted for you a ton of images from the AVS. Also don't forget that even if it's a little fat or skinny for your liking at first, you'll probably forget about it after a couple minutes of playing
The easy answer is that decent TVs will have scaling built in to handle different ratios. Depending on the TV 720 should look great. Bunnyboy also asked a very valid question about 720 or 768. Many 720 TVs are actually 768 due to obscure reasons based on PC monitors. In that respect the integers will be different depending on if it's a 720 image on a 768 TV or 720 TV.
Beyond that other than understanding the basics of it and not letting the numbers get in the way of the facts is about all we can get. To really see the difference you'd have to have standardized TVs and there isn't really a standard right now. Some TVs still use overscan, some will trim just the top a bit, some add larger black bars to the sides of 4:3 to create software overscan etc... You just have to put the box on you TV and then fiddle with it.
no what i was asking for sorry if i'm being annoying but what i'm asking for is a video comparison of the best scaling setting of the avs and the my life in gaming's high def nes 1080p setting. so i can compare the two side by side.
no what i was asking for sorry if i'm being annoying but what i'm asking for is a video comparison of the best scaling setting of the avs and the my life in gaming's high def nes 1080p setting. so i can compare the two side by side.
The problem is that different displays (such as the TV you own) can affect it as well. So comparing the two side by side would be useless to you unless you have the exact same TV used by the two systems in this side by side comparison (and even then, there could be additional differences.) Plus, Bunnyboy doesn't have the Hi Def NES with him. You want to buy one and send it to him? Along with two copies of the TV you plan to use?
There are way too many details to really go into it. There are different chips used for scaling, etc. If you're interested, go on an A/V site like AVSforum.com and browse around the display areas. There are dudes who will be happy to break it all down. I don't mean to blow off your question, but you're asking for a simple answer to a much more complex set of variables.
bunnyboy could you please loan my life in gaming the avs so they can give their thoughts on it.
Dude, he's not going to send his prototype console over to the chucklefucks at MLIG just so you can see a comparison. If you're that hung up about it, wait until it's released, buy one and an Hi Def NES, compare them yourself, and then sell the one you don't want.
Otherwise, you're being as annoying as the Macedonian dude.
The theoretical ideal NTSC NES pixel aspect ratio is 8:7 or 1.142857... A CRT is a piece of curved glass, so the true AR will vary depending on what portion of the screen you are looking at. If you had an LCD display that could display a 3,840x3,360 resolution, you would get that exact AR. However, that is almost a 6K resolution and outside the reach of all but the richest consumers. (Note that Apple has a 5K iMac that is within affordability and would give something very near the NES AR).
The two integer scaled resolutions which come closest to the original AR and can be done on the HiDef NES Mod are 1024x720 and 1280x960. 1024x720 gives a 1.422... AR. I can appreciate it when the My Life In Gaming guys suggest that this is a little too wide. The 1280x960 resolution gives a 1.333... AR, which is less wide and therefore quite a bit closer to the ideal. Integer scaling is the best way to avoid ugly scrolling artifacts. Unfortunately, this is the best you can expect from your average consumer display technologies and the FPGAs available today.
The AVS should be able to do 1024x720, but it will not be able to do 1280x960. My concern with the 720p limitation is that it may be very difficult to avoid lag from the TV's upscaling. Unless your TV supports a 1:1 pixel display, it will upscale 720p (1280x720) content to a 1366x768, 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 resolution. That upscaling adds additional lag compared to the lag inherent in displaying at the native resolution. (1366x768 is almost always used because 1024x768 used to be a popular resolution for LCD monitors and it was easier to cut panels according to need at the factory.) I bet those lag tests only test the lag displayed at the TV's native resolution.
bunnyboy could you please loan my life in gaming the avs so they can give their thoughts on it.
Dude, he's not going to send his prototype console over to the chucklefucks at MLIG just so you can see a comparison. If you're that hung up about it, wait until it's released, buy one and an Hi Def NES, compare them yourself, and then sell the one you don't want.
Otherwise, you're being as annoying as the Macedonian dude.
i don't have that kind of money that's why i wanted to see a video comparison that's all. but i like the color palette on the avs but i don't like that it's only 720p
Comments
Here is a vid of every scaling option for the AVS+TV I use most, pick whatever you think looks best! The 2 composite options are also included so you can see how horrid they look. You might want to watch on youtube so you can change to higher res and larger.
Or if you want higher res photos in the same order, http://www.retrousb.com/images/AVS-Scaling.jpg (15MB) I use #15 which is 4:3 AVS scaling (middle integer) then wide mode on the TV. Ends up with a ~1.32:1 pixel which is at the max of the CRTs I have measured but fills the screen nicely. My opinion is always the only correct answer, so I am right!
Even native panels will do crop/rescale if they think there is overscan too. Sometimes the setting to get 1:1 is hidden or unavailable. Basically the TV decides to do whatever it wants
Here is a vid of every scaling option for the AVS+TV I use most, pick whatever you think looks best! The 2 composite options are also included so you can see how horrid they look. You might want to watch on youtube so you can change to higher res and larger.
Or if you want higher res photos in the same order, http://www.retrousb.com/images/AV... (15MB) I use #15 which is 4:3 AVS scaling (middle integer) then wide mode on the TV. Ends up with a ~1.32:1 pixel which is at the max of the CRTs I have measured but fills the screen nicely. My opinion is always the only correct answer, so I am right!
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
Holy cow, dude, have you read any of his responses to your questions?
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
Holy cow, dude, have you read any of his responses to your questions?
i'm still trying to understand my life in gaming's complait with 720p scaling compared to 1080p's scaling
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
Holy cow, dude, have you read any of his responses to your questions?
i'm still trying to understand my life in gaming's complait with 720p scaling compared to 1080p's scaling
Bunnyboy answered it. Those dudes have an opinion on it, which is not universal. There's no right or wrong, just what you prefer.
Originally posted by: supersaiyajingodgoku
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
Originally posted by: bunnyboy
I am always going to say mine is better
so wait do you have better scaling options than the high def nes kevtris's mod?
It might help if you list out in what way each one of the 21 pictures is wrong. #0 is obvious, hopefully two others are too. Got the list started here, copy/paste should work: http://pastebin.com/wMd2f0R7
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
you didn't watch where he said 5x on 1080p gives the right pixel scaling but on 720p it's not able to look right
Ah ok, you're talking about horizontal. That's because at 1920x1080, there's more pixels to work with vs 1280x720.
The default NES resolution is 256x240. So if we want to use integer scaling, we need to list all of the integers multiples that'll fit:
Horizontal: 256, 512, 768, 1024, 1280, 1536, 1792
Vertical: 240, 480, 720, 960
Now let's cut these into proportions.
720p
Horizontal (divided by 1280): 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, 1, 6/5, 7/5 (obviously the last two won't fit into 720p)
Verical (divided by 720): 1/3, 2/3, 1, 4/3 (again, last one won't fit in 720p)
1080p
Horizontal (divided by 1920): 2/15, 4/15, 2/5, 8/15, 2/3, 4/5, 14/15
Vertical (divided by 1080): 2/9, 4/9, 2/3, 8/9
So notice that there's more fractions that you can fit into the 1080p screen. For the horizontal, 720p moves in increments of 1/5, but for 1080p moves in increments of 2/15 which is a bit smaller. This gives the user more choices for screen scaling, which is why he found 1080p to scale a little better for him/herself.
The choice most people would be comfortable for horizontal scaling would be somewhere between 3/5 and 4/5, and while 720p only has those two choices, 1080p has 8/15, 2/3, and 4/5, so those may be easier on the eyes to some.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
so for someone without much knowledge on these type of things what's he getting at can someone show a comparison.
so for someone without much knowledge on these type of things what's he getting at can someone show a comparison.
I think you want a black and white "this is right, this is wrong" answer, and there isn't one. When you say the My Life in Gaming dudes can't get the 720p to look right, THAT'S THEIR OPINION!
In the video you posted where they said that the "4" setting looked wide, it looked fine TO ME, and he said the skinny looked better, but I disagree. That's pretty much what it is. Whatever you think. SnoopKatt put it best.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
Hope that helps.
Trust in Bunnyboy and all your dreams will come true.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
And different CRTs don't have the same aspect ratio with the same input signal, and even one CRT doesn't have the same aspect on the top of the screen as the middle. If there was actually one correct answer then neither system would need any configuration for personal preference!
The amount of number crunching here is becoming laughable. Seriously, do all these minute details matter so long as it works via HDMI and looks anything better than factory original? (Aside to all the other cool stuff it does). There is more concerning variance in our eyeballs and TV sets.
All that really matters in the long run for the user is if they are happy with the picture quality (everything boils down to subjectivity), and as much as we are annoyed by the questions supersaiyajingodgoku (no offense) asked, he/she did ask a good question: why did MLIG find a scaling setting they liked at 1080p and not 720p (while maintaining square pixels)? And while we can say "it's up to the user!" over and over again, there's a little math that's needed to explain why, especially if someone doesn't understand that more pixels that the display has means more integer multiples of the source input (which means more choices of course). Now I probably went overboard with the calculations but I thought breaking it down further would help supersaiyajingodgoku understand but it didn't
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
And different CRTs don't have the same aspect ratio with the same input signal, and even one CRT doesn't have the same aspect on the top of the screen as the middle. If there was actually one correct answer then neither system would need any configuration for personal preference!
Hell of a lot of variables in play
i'm not asking for what's right or wrong anymore i just want to see the difference that's all so i can make my own judgement.
You've been given a lot of info! The MLIG video has tons of examples of different settings, and bunnyboy posted for you a ton of images from the AVS. Also don't forget that even if it's a little fat or skinny for your liking at first, you'll probably forget about it after a couple minutes of playing
Beyond that other than understanding the basics of it and not letting the numbers get in the way of the facts is about all we can get. To really see the difference you'd have to have standardized TVs and there isn't really a standard right now. Some TVs still use overscan, some will trim just the top a bit, some add larger black bars to the sides of 4:3 to create software overscan etc... You just have to put the box on you TV and then fiddle with it.
no what i was asking for sorry if i'm being annoying but what i'm asking for is a video comparison of the best scaling setting of the avs and the my life in gaming's high def nes 1080p setting. so i can compare the two side by side.
The problem is that different displays (such as the TV you own) can affect it as well. So comparing the two side by side would be useless to you unless you have the exact same TV used by the two systems in this side by side comparison (and even then, there could be additional differences.) Plus, Bunnyboy doesn't have the Hi Def NES with him. You want to buy one and send it to him? Along with two copies of the TV you plan to use?
why does he need the tv i have i thought all hdtv 1080p scaling are the same?
Not by a long shot.
tell me what is the difference between tvs is
There are way too many details to really go into it. There are different chips used for scaling, etc. If you're interested, go on an A/V site like AVSforum.com and browse around the display areas. There are dudes who will be happy to break it all down. I don't mean to blow off your question, but you're asking for a simple answer to a much more complex set of variables.
best scaling setting
Which number setting in the video I posted do you think is the best?
bunnyboy could you please loan my life in gaming the avs so they can give their thoughts on it.
Dude, he's not going to send his prototype console over to the chucklefucks at MLIG just so you can see a comparison. If you're that hung up about it, wait until it's released, buy one and an Hi Def NES, compare them yourself, and then sell the one you don't want.
Otherwise, you're being as annoying as the Macedonian dude.
The two integer scaled resolutions which come closest to the original AR and can be done on the HiDef NES Mod are 1024x720 and 1280x960. 1024x720 gives a 1.422... AR. I can appreciate it when the My Life In Gaming guys suggest that this is a little too wide. The 1280x960 resolution gives a 1.333... AR, which is less wide and therefore quite a bit closer to the ideal. Integer scaling is the best way to avoid ugly scrolling artifacts. Unfortunately, this is the best you can expect from your average consumer display technologies and the FPGAs available today.
The AVS should be able to do 1024x720, but it will not be able to do 1280x960. My concern with the 720p limitation is that it may be very difficult to avoid lag from the TV's upscaling. Unless your TV supports a 1:1 pixel display, it will upscale 720p (1280x720) content to a 1366x768, 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 resolution. That upscaling adds additional lag compared to the lag inherent in displaying at the native resolution. (1366x768 is almost always used because 1024x768 used to be a popular resolution for LCD monitors and it was easier to cut panels according to need at the factory.) I bet those lag tests only test the lag displayed at the TV's native resolution.
bunnyboy could you please loan my life in gaming the avs so they can give their thoughts on it.
Dude, he's not going to send his prototype console over to the chucklefucks at MLIG just so you can see a comparison. If you're that hung up about it, wait until it's released, buy one and an Hi Def NES, compare them yourself, and then sell the one you don't want.
Otherwise, you're being as annoying as the Macedonian dude.
i don't have that kind of money that's why i wanted to see a video comparison that's all. but i like the color palette on the avs but i don't like that it's only 720p