I find it difficult to question the existence of God in the face of the incredible complexity of nature and the way it works together. From what I know of physics, biology, and physiology, I'm amazed at the balance of the physical laws governing the universe and the intricate form of the living things that populate our planet. Just from observation, I find it impossible to believe that the incredible world we live in assembled itself by without some intelligence guiding it.
And on a personal level, I need God. In the years of my life where I've pursued happiness on my own terms, I always found myself empty. Nothing ever seemed to truly satisfy; I always had to find something bigger, something more... and *then*, surely I would be happy. I mean, this is something that's a common experience to most video game collectors... say one searches and saves for a game one wants for a long time, and you eventually get it. Are you finally satisfied? Usually not; it goes on the shelf, you admire it, and you move on to the next conquest. (Obviously it's not always like this, but I think if we're honest with ourselves, we often anticipate that things will make us much happier than they actually do.)
As a relentless hedonist, I believe that our seemingly infinite hunger for pleasure was intended to be satiated by an infinite God. And (in my belief) this God is the same one who created (one way or another) our intricate universe and sent His own Son to rescue us from eternal misery.
I clicked other because my family are Protestant (obvious Irish heritage). Its kinda scary drinking with irish backpackers at the local bar and saying your protestant and your family are Orangemen when you have 7 catholic southerners around you. That fight was interesting! in the wise words of one of the combatants afterwards: "you know saying u were Orange pretty much translated into saying your father murdered my father"
I for one am a Christian. I was raised in the church, spending most of my youth there when I wasn't in school. Spending time there taught me how to be a moral human being, but that is not why I believe in intelligent design. Besides the fact that everything in our world and our universe is in place to make life possible on this planet, I believe in God because I have felt Him (No, I don't believe God is male, there just isn't an easier pronoun to use).
Some may say that what I felt was my body reacting to a high emotional state, my brain releasing different chemicals to make me feel a state of euphoria. It was so much more than that. I wish that everyone could go through just 10 seconds of what I did that night. I have never seen the way I saw that night, my skin has never tingled the way it did that night, and I have never had my mind as open to the world around me.
If you read Eckhart Tolle's book, A New Earth, you would say that I had an evening of complete awareness. Yes I did, and it was God that gave me that experience. I will never question the existence of God again.
I clicked other because my family are Protestant (obvious Irish heritage). Its kinda scary drinking with irish backpackers at the local bar and saying your protestant and your family are Orangemen when you have 7 catholic southerners around you. That fight was interesting! in the wise words of one of the combatants afterwards: "you know saying u were Orange pretty much translated into saying your father murdered my father"
Personally not really religious though
All those Catholics might say otherwise, but Protestants are Christians too. So no need for the "other" vote.
Dan - on the Hubble. Those images aren't "color corrected" . They are "colorized". There is a big difference. They're basically making a pretty picture of electromagnetic radiation, just so we can see what's out there. It's WAY outside the visible spectrum (hence it's not "light", it's just "radiation"). It's roughly equivalent to making a graph where the high points are green and low points are red.
Oh, and the red-green comment I made is anecdotal. My granddad has it, I had a couple of fraternity brothers with it, and my sisters ex-boyfriend had it. The "buttery" statement was his exact phrasing when referring to less intense hues of red and green. Obviously they can distinguish the more intense hues, but only when they're right next to each other. This is what kept my granddad out of naval aviation. He can tell red and green apart, but not independently. As a result, the outside of his house is an awful color of green, that I'm sure looks like a medium tan to him.
Back on the religion topic. I find it amusing that a group who would claim to be based purely on logic (atheists) wouldn't reasonably consider Pascal's Wager. It's purely based on logic, and truly has no downside to someone who takes him up on it.
As a Christian, I don't believe that satisfying his wager is sufficient, though, because it's not. But it IS a good gateway for nonbelievers to take a test drive. You would be surprised the connection you can have with God if you open your heart and your mind. Doing the things Pascal talks about will gradually wear down the callousness of non-belief over time.
Also, to be "true" atheist is something I've never really understood. Agnostics I can kind of get. They just haven't made up their mind in the face of all the options. But to say definitively that God cannot or does not exist, is so empty. I really feel sorry for people who don't live a fuller life than that. To never have had a truly moving experience in nature, that opens your eyes to the wonders of the world, that that something HAS to be behind it all. Or to appreciate the intricacies of math and physics, and the delicate balance and carefully orchestrated ballet of our galaxy and universe.
I'm not trying to insult you, so please don't take that the wrong way. But knowing that a greater power exists, I just truly wonder why would an atheist even bother going through the motions. What would the point of it all be?
I voted, but I so think this is an interesting topic... and what no sciencetology option?? Just kidding..
and for the record, I'm a Christian... I personally believe the universe is too complex for random events to have led to something as great as humans and our existence on this rock of space dust and gas.
arch, it's just my belief, not a logical assumption. You mentioned that atheists are a non-religion borne of logic, but that's not the case for me. I don't try to rationalize the absence or presence of god - proving he exists is irrelevant because faith alone is enough, and it's nearly impossible to prove a negative - I certainly can't prove god doesn't exist. Therefore it would be extremely illogical to try to rationalize atheism. I could only give circumstantial evidence (as could a believer) all day until I'm blue in the face, and neither of us would get anywhere.
I am red/green deficient and I would certainly not describe the effect as buttery. Everything appears without haze, distortion or anything extraordinary compared to other pure colors that I can see fine. They just look similar to one another. I guess I'm not even sure what buttery means, I was assuming it meant blurred, like muddled or smooth around the edges. Don't know how to interpret it but I just see different colors than you do, no other way I can describe.
And I've never felt empty because of lack of religion. Or unsatisfied, or uninspired. I enjoy every day, live my life so that I do no harm to myself or others, enjoy my wife and friends and family, and fill myself up with those things. I've never had a concept of spirit, soul or spiritualism. I understand the definitions, but if you'd like to consider it a dimension that I lack, that's fine. I don't mind being one dimension less than the religious folks here, I get by just fine. Can't miss what I never had.
edit - oh and I forgot about the hubble thing - my point was just that it sees things we can't and we have to command it to conform to our perceptions.
I am a historian, and I know that religion has been killing for centuries. I teach American and World hisory at a high school in New Jersey. I like what Karl Marx said when he uttered that religion is the opiate of the people. I believe that there may be a power that is greater than humans somewhere, but my allegiance is to my family, friends, and society. I try to be the best person I can be everyday. Thanks, wolfsaq
I clicked other because my family are Protestant (obvious Irish heritage). Its kinda scary drinking with irish backpackers at the local bar and saying your protestant and your family are Orangemen when you have 7 catholic southerners around you. That fight was interesting! in the wise words of one of the combatants afterwards: "you know saying u were Orange pretty much translated into saying your father murdered my father"
Personally not really religious though
I'm Catholic. Your father murdered my father! I KILL YOU!
^ yep, wars fought in the name of religion were still wars, with leaders and troops. Religion may have been the impetus but it wasn't the weapon. Truly evil, genocidal maniacs need no excuse and do not need to be enabled to kill one man, or a dozen men - but to kill hundreds they needed to pad their motives with racism, religious fundamentalism and other ways to exclude their prey, to dehumanize them in the eyes of their death squads and attract followers to do the dirty work.
My pastor had a really sad story as part of the sermon this past week.
(basically about not judging a book by its cover - from the many references in the Bible to wheat vs. weeds and letting God sort out the harvest at the end).
When the crusaders went from Europe to Jerusalem the did some pretty brutal things along the way.
Evidently, in at least one case they slaughtered a whole town only to discover later that the brown people they assumed were Muslims were wearing crosses and were, in fact, Christian. It's really upsetting when people pervert something that is good at its core, to their own evil ends.
I don't mind being one dimension less than the religious folks here, I get by just fine. Can't miss what I never had.
Maybe not, but you're liable to miss what's to come, and that really is the whole point
Yep I have been told by quite a few people - in my childhood and adulthood alike - that there is something special after all of this that I'll be missing, and I respect and kind of envy that you are able to live your life looking forward to eternal rewards. It's certainly a great inspiration!!
But my beliefs prevent me from thinking that if I act a certain way, I'd be "in on it." I think it's very difficult for someone who has true faith to understand, that in the same way you can just be faithful to your lord and believe without question, I have faith that when I die I will not be tormented, and in fact will not be aware - I'll just cease to be. No way of knowing, but I just take comfort in a different kind of end than the faithful do.
I don't think about death so much though...I guess I focus the rewards of living a good life, while I'm living it. If I do good, I'm rewarded everyday. I've been rewarded with love, shelter, food and safety because I've kept on the straight-and-narrow, with little risk of that being taken away (calling back to the 'stealing is easier' notion). I know that everyone takes personal pleasure from doing good things, you're no different than I in this respect, it feels good to do good. Just, that's where it ends for me.
^^^ It's not acting a certain way to be "in on it". Anybody can life a seemingly righteous life and still be a charlatan.
It's accepting that you're fallen, and NEED a savior. You accept that you can't just live a good enough life, and will always come up short when compared to God's commandments. Jesus sacrified himself for a reason. And everyone owes it to themselves to ponder his time on earth, and its purpose.
You say it "feels good to do good", but also that you don't feel like you have a soul?
As for what awaits when you die...it's not hell fire, like some might tell you. It's just like you say, you'll be in a place where there is emptiness and nothing. The Doc and I will be in the presence of God forever. In the old testament, the direct translation for the original Hebrew is that you will be "distant from God" (as opposed to being "in Hell"). But, being truly distant from God, is effectively the same thing as being in Hell. The notion of some fiery hell, with a devil that revels in torturing you, though, is really ridiculous. It's a given that at the end of time, God wins, the victory is ours, and Satan and the other fallen angels get to be empty and alone like the other people in "hell".
The concept of a soul has many definitions. I don't believe I have one by your definition, and by the definitions of many religions.
I've heard many different accounts of the afterlife, including what you said about a lonely void being hell. Which specific faith is that belief from? When you say "it's a given" I assume you mean "as it's written" in the Bible?
Also a bit more on the hubble - it does actually color-correct for objects of significant distance. The visible spectrum of light begins changing properties at great distaces - the light red-shifts (the wavelengths spread out, changing their colors tending toward longer, lower energy waves). It's measurable, and helps astronomers measure distances from us to extremely distant astronomical objects. This redshift is actually evidence for an expanding universe - space itself is growing, and stretching these extremely old, long light rays with it. Anyways to print out those pretty pictures of distant nebulas, after they calculate the distance they can "roll back" the palette.
^^^ That's neat about redshift. I wasn't familiar with that property. I know the MOST colorful pictures you see tend to be "colorized" electromagnetic radiation that is way outside the visible spectrum.
The void thing is from Judaism and Christianity. There is basically a spectrum of existance for eternity with God in the middle and you're either near to him, or distant from him. This describes more a state of spiritual being, than anything else. Physically, I have no idea what would go on.
When I say "it's a given" you could either say "as it's written" or even logically recognize that the truly infinite and eternal God cannot be defeated and has already won. In fact, what's written is that He doesn't even get involved in the last battle because it's not necessary. The Archangel Michael leads the fight and gets things done. Wham, bam, thank-you ma'am. I'll ask you to humor me, in my reasoning, but think about this: According to the Bible, 1/3 of the angels defected and went with Satan. Angels directly source their power from God, so a fallen angel is massively weaker than one that is not. With 2:1 numerical superiority AND the power of being close to God, how could the good guys lose?
I don't doubt that the Christian God and his angels would win that final battle, as it's written it does seem very lopsided Smart money's on the guy in white trunks.
Interesting you mention the eternal nature of God and we're talking about the cosmology of an expanding universe. That's really where the people who believe in the "religion of science" - those that fancy themselves to be purely logical - begin to practice pure faith instead. There are multiple creation postulates, some very wacky. And likewise, a few different ways that scientists say it all will end. There are certainly parallels between these theories and the teachings of religion - we all seem to look to the heavens in a search for answers, everyone's belief depends on the teachings of those before us, and many seem to be instantly prepared to ardently defend their belief without actual proof.
There are quite a few things (such as mathematics as discussed on the last page) which are concrete, and MOST people can agree on -- but universal theory is (currently) really out of thin air. All we have is what we can see - and that's not a whole heckuva lot from our vantage point. And what we see is contradictory - an accelerating universal boundary, anachronisms among collected data, and more all the time. In a sense the body of knowledge on such things is galactically lacking. There's nothing BUT room for interpretation.
I'm a practicing Christian, and I love topics like this! There's nothing like a solid debate to get the blood really flowing! As a believer in God, I'm inclined to respectfully think a lot of you are going to a hell I believe in and you don't! Getting people to believe in Hell is a lot harder than getting people to believe in God, lol. Seriously, though, I very much understand the viewpoint of lot of the atheists and agnostics here, but please realize there are very few people who are adequately qualified to make rational debate about the religion they follow. I know I'm not, lol, though that knowledge hasn't stopped me every time.
Originally posted by: dangevin
In a sense the body of knowledge on such things is galactically lacking. There's nothing BUT room for interpretation.
I was really surprised to read this. In the myriad of conversations I have with people, this is a rare admission. Most people point to science and shout "FACT FACT FACT", when in truth most facts are very relative to perspective, or are at the very least incomplete thoughts. You get into high level science and mathmatics, and you find there are almost no laws that govern things, only theorems, because scientists realize there is no way to prove something absolutely from a human's limited capacities.
I'm a practicing Christian, and I love topics like this! There's nothing like a solid debate to get the blood really flowing! As a believer in God, I'm inclined to respectfully think a lot of you are going to a hell I believe in and you don't!
This is exactly what I don't like about religions, everyone thinks they're right and that the other person is damned to Hell no mater what. Have you ever concidered that we may all be wrong. Mabye we're all going to hell, or mabye we're all going to heaven, or mabye neither of them exists. I respect your belifs entirely, and i think its great that you have something you can belive in.
Nesguy, you should look into the hell notion a little more thoroughly. It's not the "hellfire and damnation" of the Puritans that you seem to suggest. My understanding of what's actually Biblically accurate is that it deals with proximity to God and that's about it.
Gimmick, once you know God in you heart, you don't consider that you may be wrong.
People with true conviction in their beliefs shouldn't feel compelled to concede that "maybe we're all wrong".
There's no such thing as a free lunch, so doing nothing (i.e. APATHY) will never win the day in this case.
Also, Nesguy, you're right about the theorem side of science. But there are quite a few LAWS of mathematics. There are theorems as well, but it's not contextually the same as a scientific theorem. A mathematical theorem doesn't get "law" status, generally because you can't exhaustively prove them on a human time-scale. But generally, every legit mathematical theorem works as advertised, and always will.
Comments
And on a personal level, I need God. In the years of my life where I've pursued happiness on my own terms, I always found myself empty. Nothing ever seemed to truly satisfy; I always had to find something bigger, something more... and *then*, surely I would be happy. I mean, this is something that's a common experience to most video game collectors... say one searches and saves for a game one wants for a long time, and you eventually get it. Are you finally satisfied? Usually not; it goes on the shelf, you admire it, and you move on to the next conquest. (Obviously it's not always like this, but I think if we're honest with ourselves, we often anticipate that things will make us much happier than they actually do.)
As a relentless hedonist, I believe that our seemingly infinite hunger for pleasure was intended to be satiated by an infinite God. And (in my belief) this God is the same one who created (one way or another) our intricate universe and sent His own Son to rescue us from eternal misery.
All I know is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster extended one of his noodly appendages and created the world.
Personally not really religious though
Very interesting conversation going on here.
I for one am a Christian. I was raised in the church, spending most of my youth there when I wasn't in school. Spending time there taught me how to be a moral human being, but that is not why I believe in intelligent design. Besides the fact that everything in our world and our universe is in place to make life possible on this planet, I believe in God because I have felt Him (No, I don't believe God is male, there just isn't an easier pronoun to use).
Some may say that what I felt was my body reacting to a high emotional state, my brain releasing different chemicals to make me feel a state of euphoria. It was so much more than that. I wish that everyone could go through just 10 seconds of what I did that night. I have never seen the way I saw that night, my skin has never tingled the way it did that night, and I have never had my mind as open to the world around me.
If you read Eckhart Tolle's book, A New Earth, you would say that I had an evening of complete awareness. Yes I did, and it was God that gave me that experience. I will never question the existence of God again.
I have had similar experiences.
I clicked other because my family are Protestant (obvious Irish heritage). Its kinda scary drinking with irish backpackers at the local bar and saying your protestant and your family are Orangemen when you have 7 catholic southerners around you. That fight was interesting! in the wise words of one of the combatants afterwards: "you know saying u were Orange pretty much translated into saying your father murdered my father"
Personally not really religious though
All those Catholics might say otherwise, but Protestants are Christians too. So no need for the "other" vote.
Dan - on the Hubble. Those images aren't "color corrected" . They are "colorized". There is a big difference. They're basically making a pretty picture of electromagnetic radiation, just so we can see what's out there. It's WAY outside the visible spectrum (hence it's not "light", it's just "radiation"). It's roughly equivalent to making a graph where the high points are green and low points are red.
Oh, and the red-green comment I made is anecdotal. My granddad has it, I had a couple of fraternity brothers with it, and my sisters ex-boyfriend had it. The "buttery" statement was his exact phrasing when referring to less intense hues of red and green. Obviously they can distinguish the more intense hues, but only when they're right next to each other. This is what kept my granddad out of naval aviation. He can tell red and green apart, but not independently. As a result, the outside of his house is an awful color of green, that I'm sure looks like a medium tan to him.
Back on the religion topic. I find it amusing that a group who would claim to be based purely on logic (atheists) wouldn't reasonably consider Pascal's Wager. It's purely based on logic, and truly has no downside to someone who takes him up on it.
As a Christian, I don't believe that satisfying his wager is sufficient, though, because it's not. But it IS a good gateway for nonbelievers to take a test drive. You would be surprised the connection you can have with God if you open your heart and your mind. Doing the things Pascal talks about will gradually wear down the callousness of non-belief over time.
Also, to be "true" atheist is something I've never really understood. Agnostics I can kind of get. They just haven't made up their mind in the face of all the options. But to say definitively that God cannot or does not exist, is so empty. I really feel sorry for people who don't live a fuller life than that. To never have had a truly moving experience in nature, that opens your eyes to the wonders of the world, that that something HAS to be behind it all. Or to appreciate the intricacies of math and physics, and the delicate balance and carefully orchestrated ballet of our galaxy and universe.
I'm not trying to insult you, so please don't take that the wrong way. But knowing that a greater power exists, I just truly wonder why would an atheist even bother going through the motions. What would the point of it all be?
~~NGD
and for the record, I'm a Christian... I personally believe the universe is too complex for random events to have led to something as great as humans and our existence on this rock of space dust and gas.
I am red/green deficient and I would certainly not describe the effect as buttery. Everything appears without haze, distortion or anything extraordinary compared to other pure colors that I can see fine. They just look similar to one another. I guess I'm not even sure what buttery means, I was assuming it meant blurred, like muddled or smooth around the edges. Don't know how to interpret it but I just see different colors than you do, no other way I can describe.
And I've never felt empty because of lack of religion. Or unsatisfied, or uninspired. I enjoy every day, live my life so that I do no harm to myself or others, enjoy my wife and friends and family, and fill myself up with those things. I've never had a concept of spirit, soul or spiritualism. I understand the definitions, but if you'd like to consider it a dimension that I lack, that's fine. I don't mind being one dimension less than the religious folks here, I get by just fine. Can't miss what I never had.
edit - oh and I forgot about the hubble thing - my point was just that it sees things we can't and we have to command it to conform to our perceptions.
wolfsaq
I don't mind being one dimension less than the religious folks here, I get by just fine. Can't miss what I never had.
Maybe not, but you're liable to miss what's to come, and that really is the whole point
I clicked other because my family are Protestant (obvious Irish heritage). Its kinda scary drinking with irish backpackers at the local bar and saying your protestant and your family are Orangemen when you have 7 catholic southerners around you. That fight was interesting! in the wise words of one of the combatants afterwards: "you know saying u were Orange pretty much translated into saying your father murdered my father"
Personally not really religious though
I'm Catholic. Your father murdered my father! I KILL YOU!
(basically about not judging a book by its cover - from the many references in the Bible to wheat vs. weeds and letting God sort out the harvest at the end).
When the crusaders went from Europe to Jerusalem the did some pretty brutal things along the way.
Evidently, in at least one case they slaughtered a whole town only to discover later that the brown people they assumed were Muslims were wearing crosses and were, in fact, Christian. It's really upsetting when people pervert something that is good at its core, to their own evil ends.
I don't mind being one dimension less than the religious folks here, I get by just fine. Can't miss what I never had.
Maybe not, but you're liable to miss what's to come, and that really is the whole point
Yep I have been told by quite a few people - in my childhood and adulthood alike - that there is something special after all of this that I'll be missing, and I respect and kind of envy that you are able to live your life looking forward to eternal rewards. It's certainly a great inspiration!!
But my beliefs prevent me from thinking that if I act a certain way, I'd be "in on it." I think it's very difficult for someone who has true faith to understand, that in the same way you can just be faithful to your lord and believe without question, I have faith that when I die I will not be tormented, and in fact will not be aware - I'll just cease to be. No way of knowing, but I just take comfort in a different kind of end than the faithful do.
I don't think about death so much though...I guess I focus the rewards of living a good life, while I'm living it. If I do good, I'm rewarded everyday. I've been rewarded with love, shelter, food and safety because I've kept on the straight-and-narrow, with little risk of that being taken away (calling back to the 'stealing is easier' notion). I know that everyone takes personal pleasure from doing good things, you're no different than I in this respect, it feels good to do good. Just, that's where it ends for me.
It's accepting that you're fallen, and NEED a savior. You accept that you can't just live a good enough life, and will always come up short when compared to God's commandments. Jesus sacrified himself for a reason. And everyone owes it to themselves to ponder his time on earth, and its purpose.
You say it "feels good to do good", but also that you don't feel like you have a soul?
As for what awaits when you die...it's not hell fire, like some might tell you. It's just like you say, you'll be in a place where there is emptiness and nothing. The Doc and I will be in the presence of God forever. In the old testament, the direct translation for the original Hebrew is that you will be "distant from God" (as opposed to being "in Hell"). But, being truly distant from God, is effectively the same thing as being in Hell. The notion of some fiery hell, with a devil that revels in torturing you, though, is really ridiculous. It's a given that at the end of time, God wins, the victory is ours, and Satan and the other fallen angels get to be empty and alone like the other people in "hell".
I've heard many different accounts of the afterlife, including what you said about a lonely void being hell. Which specific faith is that belief from? When you say "it's a given" I assume you mean "as it's written" in the Bible?
Also a bit more on the hubble - it does actually color-correct for objects of significant distance. The visible spectrum of light begins changing properties at great distaces - the light red-shifts (the wavelengths spread out, changing their colors tending toward longer, lower energy waves). It's measurable, and helps astronomers measure distances from us to extremely distant astronomical objects. This redshift is actually evidence for an expanding universe - space itself is growing, and stretching these extremely old, long light rays with it. Anyways to print out those pretty pictures of distant nebulas, after they calculate the distance they can "roll back" the palette.
The void thing is from Judaism and Christianity. There is basically a spectrum of existance for eternity with God in the middle and you're either near to him, or distant from him. This describes more a state of spiritual being, than anything else. Physically, I have no idea what would go on.
When I say "it's a given" you could either say "as it's written" or even logically recognize that the truly infinite and eternal God cannot be defeated and has already won. In fact, what's written is that He doesn't even get involved in the last battle because it's not necessary. The Archangel Michael leads the fight and gets things done. Wham, bam, thank-you ma'am. I'll ask you to humor me, in my reasoning, but think about this:
According to the Bible, 1/3 of the angels defected and went with Satan.
Angels directly source their power from God, so a fallen angel is massively weaker than one that is not.
With 2:1 numerical superiority AND the power of being close to God, how could the good guys lose?
I don't doubt that the Christian God and his angels would win that final battle, as it's written it does seem very lopsided
Interesting you mention the eternal nature of God and we're talking about the cosmology of an expanding universe. That's really where the people who believe in the "religion of science" - those that fancy themselves to be purely logical - begin to practice pure faith instead. There are multiple creation postulates, some very wacky. And likewise, a few different ways that scientists say it all will end. There are certainly parallels between these theories and the teachings of religion - we all seem to look to the heavens in a search for answers, everyone's belief depends on the teachings of those before us, and many seem to be instantly prepared to ardently defend their belief without actual proof.
There are quite a few things (such as mathematics as discussed on the last page) which are concrete, and MOST people can agree on -- but universal theory is (currently) really out of thin air. All we have is what we can see - and that's not a whole heckuva lot from our vantage point. And what we see is contradictory - an accelerating universal boundary, anachronisms among collected data, and more all the time. In a sense the body of knowledge on such things is galactically lacking. There's nothing BUT room for interpretation.
I'm a practicing Christian, and I love topics like this! There's nothing like a solid debate to get the blood really flowing! As a believer in God, I'm inclined to respectfully think a lot of you are going to a hell I believe in and you don't!
Getting people to believe in Hell is a lot harder than getting people to believe in God, lol. Seriously, though, I very much understand the viewpoint of lot of the atheists and agnostics here, but please realize there are very few people who are adequately qualified to make rational debate about the religion they follow. I know I'm not, lol, though that knowledge hasn't stopped me every time.
In a sense the body of knowledge on such things is galactically lacking. There's nothing BUT room for interpretation.
I was really surprised to read this. In the myriad of conversations I have with people, this is a rare admission. Most people point to science and shout "FACT FACT FACT", when in truth most facts are very relative to perspective, or are at the very least incomplete thoughts. You get into high level science and mathmatics, and you find there are almost no laws that govern things, only theorems, because scientists realize there is no way to prove something absolutely from a human's limited capacities.
I'm a practicing Christian, and I love topics like this! There's nothing like a solid debate to get the blood really flowing! As a believer in God, I'm inclined to respectfully think a lot of you are going to a hell I believe in and you don't!
This is exactly what I don't like about religions, everyone thinks they're right and that the other person is damned to Hell no mater what. Have you ever concidered that we may all be wrong. Mabye we're all going to hell, or mabye we're all going to heaven, or mabye neither of them exists. I respect your belifs entirely, and i think its great that you have something you can belive in.
Gimmick, once you know God in you heart, you don't consider that you may be wrong.
People with true conviction in their beliefs shouldn't feel compelled to concede that "maybe we're all wrong".
There's no such thing as a free lunch, so doing nothing (i.e. APATHY) will never win the day in this case.
Also, Nesguy, you're right about the theorem side of science. But there are quite a few LAWS of mathematics. There are theorems as well, but it's not contextually the same as a scientific theorem. A mathematical theorem doesn't get "law" status, generally because you can't exhaustively prove them on a human time-scale. But generally, every legit mathematical theorem works as advertised, and always will.
religion is a scam
What is God scamming me out of?