Lol, I know what you mean on both points you direct to me. I was just summing up a bit, as Inigo Montoya would say.
The problem that most people fail to grasp with a godless sense of morality is that it is typically based on two things: historical context and social whim. Very rarely does any individual stop to truly rationalize why they have certain attitudes towards various actions and thoughts. In fact, morality is much more difficult to logically get behind when there is no higher being involved.
Gimmick, you're right that religion is about believing "I'm right and you're wrong". I was being trite, I admit, for a bit of humour. RELIGIONS are about various ways of ceremony and tradition in following a particular set of beliefs. It's how Jews, Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims can all believe in the same deity, but have war-inducing differences of opinion on how to show that belief. In all honesty, though, arch_8ngel hit the nail on the proverbial head. Belief doesn't involve right/wrong. Once you truly believe in God, or any other worldview, the truth of things just "is", so to speak. There is no more argument to be made. You cannot imperically prove to me God does not exist, and I cannot imperically prove to you He does. Even atheism is a belief, to which I cannot point at anything in particular and say, "Nah, nah, look at that! There is a god!". There will almost always be some way for an individual to rationalize things into their personal outlook on life. This is one of the many reasons churches adopt the following Christ to get into heaven approach, because straight up fear of God doesn't sway the masses anymore, though it should They needed an incentive to offer a capitalist driven society. Now, I may not approve of some of the methods used, but it is indeed a form of "scam". Something is offered for which no proof of receipt is given. Christians offer salvation and a more content life, but there is no proof to be had for the outside observer.
Religion isn't administrated by God; Religion and belief in God are mutually exclusive concepts.
The 'scam' depends entirely on which religion you are an adherent of. You don't have to look very far to see the power of influence religion as an institution can have. Turn on the news right now and you will see examples of Islamic Fundamentalism, of course, and Mormon Polygamist sects. That is the power of religious influence. A less radical example is that Stem-Cell research was canned because Christian Fundamentalists reframed it as an abortion issue. Any medical break-throughs in that field have been postponed because religion has once again stood in the way of science, and it is to the detriment of us all. And that is really the point, for whatever little good religion brings into the world it will always be vastly outweighed by the evil it creates.
As a global civilization we will never move forward as long as the Abrahamic religions continue to exist.
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
Scientology | L. Ron Hubbard, 1954, California | (members) 70,000 or several million, depending on the source
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lol nice page, Dain
nesguy, I in turn appreciate your admission that atheism is a belief akin to theism. I think atheists do themselves wrong when they parley their non-belief in a god as something more pragmatic than it is...but nobody knows, the jury's still out.
I have also heard hardliner atheists try to push their views on others (esp in College - if any of you have ever had some heated discussions with coeds, you'll know it's a much different beast than this fairly tame thread) - it's funny but they sound kind of like they're witnessing when they do!
There just always seems to be a lot of tension on both sides, when in fact we're both very much alike in our convictions, if not in credo. It's hard for either belief to rationalize the other. It's something very much of the heart.
This reminds me of Douglas Adams's obviously satirical passage about the tiny but useful Babel Fish (from tHHGttG)
BABEL FISH :
The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh that was easy" says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.
A less radical example is that Stem-Cell research was canned because Christian Fundamentalists reframed it as an abortion issue. Any medical break-throughs in that field have been postponed because religion has once again stood in the way of science, and it is to the detriment of us all.
Actually on Nova this past week they were showing an interesting bit on "rebooting" cells. All cells in our body contain the complete DNA 'blueprint' for everything that hangs off of us. It's just that certain ones get switched on genetically, and then become skin cells, bone, etc etc.
They've been able to take skin grafts from rat tails, genetically reboot them to erase their skin-cell programming, effectively turning them into stem cells. Then, using a virus to carry the genetic instruction to turn it into whatever they want, cartilage, blood cells, whatever, they have gotten the stem cells to successfully morph, just like with fetal stem cells. The benefit is 100% donor compatibility since they're taking your body's cells.
The drawbacks are BIG FAT CANCER They found that it was easy to get the stem cell to become something, but hard to get it to stop morphing - it kept changing right up until it became cancerous. They've added some genetic patches that stop this though, using existing cells as a guide (apparently a certain chemical "stopper" tells the cell to stay where it's at and function normally).
Functional application: they've already cured a rat that they gave sickle cell anemia to. Some shit!
All pretty fascinating, and 100% in line with EVERYONE's moral quota. Except the people that don't like Nova.
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
I'm Catholic and was raised that way, both my mom's and dad's families were raised the same way, each of them was one of 10 and 11 so my grandparents were churchgoers, yada yada. I still go to church, not sure exactly what or how much I take away from it, its just something I enjoy doing, from praying to thinking about life and other things, I feel though I'm only one of the few grandkids that still go in my entire family which is over 50 of us....so yea that's my thoughts!
months ago? Hope you don't mind me asking, but what happened in the last 2-3 months that changed your thinking from 'there may be a God' to 'there is NO God'?
I was surprised by it, too, but I did extensive research. A lot more than I did when I was agnostic.
A less radical example is that Stem-Cell research was canned because Christian Fundamentalists reframed it as an abortion issue. Any medical break-throughs in that field have been postponed because religion has once again stood in the way of science, and it is to the detriment of us all.
Actually on Nova this past week they were showing an interesting bit on "rebooting" cells....
All pretty fascinating, and 100% in line with EVERYONE's moral quota. Except the people that don't like Nova.
Or except fundamentalists that believe medicine is against God's will. This isn't a mainstream topic, but you can be certain that some religious groups will demonize this research as an attempt to play God. Besides, the stem-cell opposition had no real moral grounding. The argument was along the lines of "If fetal stem cells are allowed to be harvested it will encourage people to have abortions." Which is patently absurd. So maybe we'll see them running the beastiality angle on "rebooting".
That research is very interesting, and I applaud science for trying to find another way...but if you think about it, they are trying to synthesize a cell that we would otherwise already have access to a natural version of. And the people waiting on Corneal replacement surgery have to stay blind until this alternative research pays off.
I should add that the Christian perspective that abortion is murder is not even supported by the bible, quite the contrary. Ex21:22 In that example causing a woman to miscarry is a finable offense, however any further injury to the woman is treated in accordance to levitical law (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life). If the writers considered the unborn a life then the punishment would have been death.
damn. well i clicked none. cause i skimmed the options. but I would say I'm a Pantheist. i have given it alot of thought a research and what not and this is what i believe.
For those interested in a good read check this book out.
months ago? Hope you don't mind me asking, but what happened in the last 2-3 months that changed your thinking from 'there may be a God' to 'there is NO God'? I was surprised by it, too, but I did extensive research. A lot more than I did when I was agnostic.
That doesn't answer much. What extensive research "proved" to you that there is no God?
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
Gimmick - I can't speak for other people, but personally, I'm very accepting of other people. They can possess whatever views they like and I'm not going to kill them for it, or accost them.
But I do have geniuine concern for the long-term status of their emortal soul. And so I don't think it's a lack of acceptance to try and encourage people to see the glory of God in their lives.
Also, read the Old Testament a bit. It's full of God having favoritism for the Jews....
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
Gimmick - I can't speak for other people, but personally, I'm very accepting of other people. They can possess whatever views they like and I'm not going to kill them for it, or accost them.
But I do have geniuine concern for the long-term status of their emortal soul. And so I don't think it's a lack of acceptance to try and encourage people to see the glory of God in their lives.
Also, read the Old Testament a bit. It's full of God having favoritism for the Jews....
But the bible isn't necisarily correct, so it doesn't mater what it says ...
And the point is you shouldn't try to convert others to their belifs, mabye they don't want to see the glory of a God which is in their minds nonexistant. I sure hope my soul is damned, because I wouldnt want to spend an etrnity with a God who choses one and only one group of people to recieve an afterlife. What about everybody else, what about the majority of people in the world. The whole world isn't made up of white christians who devoutly believe in the bible. What makes you right and me wrong. Religion is made by man, it is a recorded history as well as a literary tool to tell stories of the lives of a people. It contains morals of how people should behavee, and customs. But it is made and writen by man, and therefore cannot be without error, and cannot be the complete and absolute answer. All of the religions were created by man, not god. If anything I believe God isn't exclsusive to one group of people, God should be an entitly shared by all who chose to believe in him.
In all honesty I hope there is a God, and I hope that there is something beyond our lives on earth, but I cannot claim that I know anything to make judgements on whether there is one or there isn't. And I certainly could care less about others belifs, they can believe what they want, and should have the right to do so.
Also, don't take any offence to these statements, they are not directed towards you, they are merely statements for the sake of argument. I'm glad you have something to believe in, because I certainly do not. I just live my life through good morals, respect other people, and try to be a genuinly good individual because it makes me a happier person. I have a similar outlook on this as Dangivin.
Think of this as more of a intellectual debate, than an attack on beliefs, I in no way want to offend anyone, just stating what I believe.
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
Gimmick - I can't speak for other people, but personally, I'm very accepting of other people. They can possess whatever views they like and I'm not going to kill them for it, or accost them.
But I do have geniuine concern for the long-term status of their emortal soul. And so I don't think it's a lack of acceptance to try and encourage people to see the glory of God in their lives.
Also, read the Old Testament a bit. It's full of God having favoritism for the Jews....
But the bible isn't necisarily correct, so it doesn't mater what it says ...
And the point is you shouldn't try to convert others to their belifs, mabye they don't want to see the glory of a God which is in their minds nonexistant. I sure hope my soul is damned, because I wouldnt want to spend an etrnity with a God who choses one and only one group of people to recieve an afterlife. What about everybody else, what about the majority of people in the world. The whole world isn't made up of white christians who devoutly believe in the bible. What makes you right and me wrong. Religion is made by man, it is a recorded history as well as a literary tool to tell stories of the lives of a people. It contains morals of how people should behavee, and customs. But it is made and writen by man, and therefore cannot be without error, and cannot be the complete and absolute answer. All of the religions were created by man, not god. If anything I believe God isn't exclsusive to one group of people, God should be an entitly shared by all who chose to believe in him.
In all honesty I hope there is a God, and I hope that there is something beyond our lives on earth, but I cannot claim that I know anything to make judgements on whether there is one or there isn't. And I certainly could care less about others belifs, they can believe what they want, and should have the right to do so.
Also, don't take any offence to these statements, they are not directed towards you, they are merely statements for the sake of argument. I'm glad you have something to believe in, because I certainly do not. I just live my life through good morals, respect other people, and try to be a genuinly good individual because it makes me a happier person. I have a similar outlook on this as Dangivin.
Think of this as more of a intellectual debate, than an attack on beliefs, I in no way want to offend anyone, just stating what I believe.
Now you see. this is one of the reasons i chose not to believe. people use religion to starts wars, fights arguments or whatever you want to call it. and by me saying this just adds to it all. So i will continue my way/believe of life which makes sense to me. (i have never been good at expaining/expressing myself so if this offending anyone im sorry)
and yes i agree with gimmick the bible was made by man. They picked and choosed what books/stories to put in it. so why should i believe or follow a book such as this. (is whats going through my mind)
And why is religion so taboo to talk about? example being, in school if you brought up religion everyone was like ohhhhhhhhhhhhh no dont talk about that.
sorry if none of that made sense. it made sense when i was typing it. and im just expressing how i feel on the subject. not trying to attack ones belief.
TFGZ - I think you would be hard pressed to watch a sonogram and not believe that a fetus is a living thing. I mean, premature babies born MONTHS and MONTHS early (during time that abortion is allowed) can survive.
I don't have a problem with people making their own choices. But to suggest that you aren't killing a baby when you abort a fetus, older than a month or so, is just plain ignorant.
:sigh: You entirely misread that post. I never stated my personal view. What I actually said is that there is no biblical defense to the claim that abortion is murder. Because the authors, as demonstrated by that example, didn't treat the unborn as a life.
As far as being ignorant for not considering a 1 month old fetus a life, I would suggest that where the medical and legal community distinguishes brain death as a form of natural death, that a life doesn't begin until that level neural activity is achieved. Where it is illegal to perform an abortion in the 3rd trimester, the only time a fetus is viable, and when that level of neural activity develops, it is really a non-debate.
Comments
The problem that most people fail to grasp with a godless sense of morality is that it is typically based on two things: historical context and social whim. Very rarely does any individual stop to truly rationalize why they have certain attitudes towards various actions and thoughts. In fact, morality is much more difficult to logically get behind when there is no higher being involved.
Gimmick, you're right that religion is about believing "I'm right and you're wrong". I was being trite, I admit, for a bit of humour. RELIGIONS are about various ways of ceremony and tradition in following a particular set of beliefs. It's how Jews, Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims can all believe in the same deity, but have war-inducing differences of opinion on how to show that belief. In all honesty, though, arch_8ngel hit the nail on the proverbial head. Belief doesn't involve right/wrong. Once you truly believe in God, or any other worldview, the truth of things just "is", so to speak. There is no more argument to be made. You cannot imperically prove to me God does not exist, and I cannot imperically prove to you He does. Even atheism is a belief, to which I cannot point at anything in particular and say, "Nah, nah, look at that! There is a god!". There will almost always be some way for an individual to rationalize things into their personal outlook on life. This is one of the many reasons churches adopt the following Christ to get into heaven approach, because straight up fear of God doesn't sway the masses anymore, though it should
http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm
Who's right?
religion is a scam
What is God scamming me out of?
Religion isn't administrated by God; Religion and belief in God are mutually exclusive concepts.
The 'scam' depends entirely on which religion you are an adherent of. You don't have to look very far to see the power of influence religion as an institution can have. Turn on the news right now and you will see examples of Islamic Fundamentalism, of course, and Mormon Polygamist sects. That is the power of religious influence. A less radical example is that Stem-Cell research was canned because Christian Fundamentalists reframed it as an abortion issue. Any medical break-throughs in that field have been postponed because religion has once again stood in the way of science, and it is to the detriment of us all. And that is really the point, for whatever little good religion brings into the world it will always be vastly outweighed by the evil it creates.
As a global civilization we will never move forward as long as the Abrahamic religions continue to exist.
With all of these:
http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm
Who's right?
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
Scientology | L. Ron Hubbard, 1954, California | (members) 70,000 or several million, depending on the source
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lol nice page, Dain
nesguy, I in turn appreciate your admission that atheism is a belief akin to theism. I think atheists do themselves wrong when they parley their non-belief in a god as something more pragmatic than it is...but nobody knows, the jury's still out.
I have also heard hardliner atheists try to push their views on others (esp in College - if any of you have ever had some heated discussions with coeds, you'll know it's a much different beast than this fairly tame thread) - it's funny but they sound kind of like they're witnessing when they do!
There just always seems to be a lot of tension on both sides, when in fact we're both very much alike in our convictions, if not in credo. It's hard for either belief to rationalize the other. It's something very much of the heart.
This reminds me of Douglas Adams's obviously satirical passage about the tiny but useful Babel Fish (from tHHGttG)
BABEL FISH :
The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But", says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh that was easy" says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.
A less radical example is that Stem-Cell research was canned because Christian Fundamentalists reframed it as an abortion issue. Any medical break-throughs in that field have been postponed because religion has once again stood in the way of science, and it is to the detriment of us all.
Actually on Nova this past week they were showing an interesting bit on "rebooting" cells. All cells in our body contain the complete DNA 'blueprint' for everything that hangs off of us. It's just that certain ones get switched on genetically, and then become skin cells, bone, etc etc.
They've been able to take skin grafts from rat tails, genetically reboot them to erase their skin-cell programming, effectively turning them into stem cells. Then, using a virus to carry the genetic instruction to turn it into whatever they want, cartilage, blood cells, whatever, they have gotten the stem cells to successfully morph, just like with fetal stem cells. The benefit is 100% donor compatibility since they're taking your body's cells.
The drawbacks are BIG FAT CANCER
Functional application: they've already cured a rat that they gave sickle cell anemia to. Some shit!
All pretty fascinating, and 100% in line with EVERYONE's moral quota. Except the people that don't like Nova.
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
I was surprised by it, too, but I did extensive research. A lot more than I did when I was agnostic.
A less radical example is that Stem-Cell research was canned because Christian Fundamentalists reframed it as an abortion issue. Any medical break-throughs in that field have been postponed because religion has once again stood in the way of science, and it is to the detriment of us all.
Actually on Nova this past week they were showing an interesting bit on "rebooting" cells....
All pretty fascinating, and 100% in line with EVERYONE's moral quota. Except the people that don't like Nova.
Or except fundamentalists that believe medicine is against God's will. This isn't a mainstream topic, but you can be certain that some religious groups will demonize this research as an attempt to play God. Besides, the stem-cell opposition had no real moral grounding. The argument was along the lines of "If fetal stem cells are allowed to be harvested it will encourage people to have abortions." Which is patently absurd. So maybe we'll see them running the beastiality angle on "rebooting".
That research is very interesting, and I applaud science for trying to find another way...but if you think about it, they are trying to synthesize a cell that we would otherwise already have access to a natural version of. And the people waiting on Corneal replacement surgery have to stay blind until this alternative research pays off.
I should add that the Christian perspective that abortion is murder is not even supported by the bible, quite the contrary. Ex21:22 In that example causing a woman to miscarry is a finable offense, however any further injury to the woman is treated in accordance to levitical law (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life). If the writers considered the unborn a life then the punishment would have been death.
i need to retract my vote i clicked the wrong one. how do i do this?
I dont think you can, I click the wrong one too ...
For those interested in a good read check this book out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_god_delusion
I pray to the NES god's.
Yes, all hail ye Gods of gaming!
The Church of Gaming
months ago? Hope you don't mind me asking, but what happened in the last 2-3 months that changed your thinking from 'there may be a God' to 'there is NO God'? I was surprised by it, too, but I did extensive research. A lot more than I did when I was agnostic.
That doesn't answer much. What extensive research "proved" to you that there is no God?
I mean, premature babies born MONTHS and MONTHS early (during time that abortion is allowed) can survive.
I don't have a problem with people making their own choices.
But to suggest that you aren't killing a baby when you abort a fetus, older than a month or so, is just plain ignorant.
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
Gimmick - I can't speak for other people, but personally, I'm very accepting of other people. They can possess whatever views they like and I'm not going to kill them for it, or accost them.
But I do have geniuine concern for the long-term status of their emortal soul. And so I don't think it's a lack of acceptance to try and encourage people to see the glory of God in their lives.
Also, read the Old Testament a bit. It's full of God having favoritism for the Jews....
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
Gimmick - I can't speak for other people, but personally, I'm very accepting of other people. They can possess whatever views they like and I'm not going to kill them for it, or accost them.
But I do have geniuine concern for the long-term status of their emortal soul. And so I don't think it's a lack of acceptance to try and encourage people to see the glory of God in their lives.
Also, read the Old Testament a bit. It's full of God having favoritism for the Jews....
But the bible isn't necisarily correct, so it doesn't mater what it says ...
And the point is you shouldn't try to convert others to their belifs, mabye they don't want to see the glory of a God which is in their minds nonexistant. I sure hope my soul is damned, because I wouldnt want to spend an etrnity with a God who choses one and only one group of people to recieve an afterlife. What about everybody else, what about the majority of people in the world. The whole world isn't made up of white christians who devoutly believe in the bible. What makes you right and me wrong. Religion is made by man, it is a recorded history as well as a literary tool to tell stories of the lives of a people. It contains morals of how people should behavee, and customs. But it is made and writen by man, and therefore cannot be without error, and cannot be the complete and absolute answer. All of the religions were created by man, not god. If anything I believe God isn't exclsusive to one group of people, God should be an entitly shared by all who chose to believe in him.
In all honesty I hope there is a God, and I hope that there is something beyond our lives on earth, but I cannot claim that I know anything to make judgements on whether there is one or there isn't. And I certainly could care less about others belifs, they can believe what they want, and should have the right to do so.
Also, don't take any offence to these statements, they are not directed towards you, they are merely statements for the sake of argument. I'm glad you have something to believe in, because I certainly do not. I just live my life through good morals, respect other people, and try to be a genuinly good individual because it makes me a happier person. I have a similar outlook on this as Dangivin.
Think of this as more of a intellectual debate, than an attack on beliefs, I in no way want to offend anyone, just stating what I believe.
I am not religious at all, I just don't understand it at all. I am to logical about stuff I think.
~~NGD
took the words out of my mouth
I don't believe in any of it, I enjoy being able to think for myself
That's right. There are lots of Gods that were just as Omniscient, Omnipresent, and Omnipotent as the God of the Bible, Koran and Torah...and all of them are dead. No one remembers them, or keeps homage to them.
There are also some 2000+ sects of Christianity, none of which agree on the correct form of worship save one thing...we are right, and all the others are false.
I have to disagree that all christians are right. Who knows, mabye the anciant greeks were right for all we know. I'm being sarcastic here, but the point is that you can believe your right, but that doesnt mean you are. The ancient greeks probably said the same thing, "we're right", untl christianity took over and the old gods were condemned. Theres so many religions in the world and they all believe just as much as christians that they are right. I don't see god coming down and saying all you muslims and hindus are entirely wrong I am the one true god. For all we know God may exist in a form entirely different from what man percieves god to be. Mabye god is energy, a force unlike what man has experienced. We don't know because there is no proof, there is just personal belief.
Now if there is a god, mabye all relgions are correct. Perhaps each religion has their own way of worshiping this force, this creator, and mabye all of the various prophets through time had similar goals. If you actually read he koran, the torrah or any other religios text there is actually alot in common, it is more of the traditions and customs that set them apart. I respect everyones beliefs and I also believe that if you are a genuinely good person than you are rewarded - whether that reward is in the afterlife, or if it is just here on earth.
I say its great to have something to believe in, I just wish religons were more accepting of others. If there is a god, then we were all made from the same clay, we are all human, dispite diferences in beleif, and I doubt God would only favor a small population of his creations.
Gimmick - I can't speak for other people, but personally, I'm very accepting of other people. They can possess whatever views they like and I'm not going to kill them for it, or accost them.
But I do have geniuine concern for the long-term status of their emortal soul. And so I don't think it's a lack of acceptance to try and encourage people to see the glory of God in their lives.
Also, read the Old Testament a bit. It's full of God having favoritism for the Jews....
But the bible isn't necisarily correct, so it doesn't mater what it says ...
And the point is you shouldn't try to convert others to their belifs, mabye they don't want to see the glory of a God which is in their minds nonexistant. I sure hope my soul is damned, because I wouldnt want to spend an etrnity with a God who choses one and only one group of people to recieve an afterlife. What about everybody else, what about the majority of people in the world. The whole world isn't made up of white christians who devoutly believe in the bible. What makes you right and me wrong. Religion is made by man, it is a recorded history as well as a literary tool to tell stories of the lives of a people. It contains morals of how people should behavee, and customs. But it is made and writen by man, and therefore cannot be without error, and cannot be the complete and absolute answer. All of the religions were created by man, not god. If anything I believe God isn't exclsusive to one group of people, God should be an entitly shared by all who chose to believe in him.
In all honesty I hope there is a God, and I hope that there is something beyond our lives on earth, but I cannot claim that I know anything to make judgements on whether there is one or there isn't. And I certainly could care less about others belifs, they can believe what they want, and should have the right to do so.
Also, don't take any offence to these statements, they are not directed towards you, they are merely statements for the sake of argument. I'm glad you have something to believe in, because I certainly do not. I just live my life through good morals, respect other people, and try to be a genuinly good individual because it makes me a happier person. I have a similar outlook on this as Dangivin.
Think of this as more of a intellectual debate, than an attack on beliefs, I in no way want to offend anyone, just stating what I believe.
Now you see. this is one of the reasons i chose not to believe. people use religion to starts wars, fights arguments or whatever you want to call it. and by me saying this just adds to it all. So i will continue my way/believe of life which makes sense to me.
(i have never been good at expaining/expressing myself so if this offending anyone im sorry)
and yes i agree with gimmick the bible was made by man. They picked and choosed what books/stories to put in it. so why should i believe or follow a book such as this. (is whats going through my mind)
And why is religion so taboo to talk about? example being, in school if you brought up religion everyone was like ohhhhhhhhhhhhh no dont talk about that.
sorry if none of that made sense. it made sense when i was typing it. and im just expressing how i feel on the subject. not trying to attack ones belief.
Read Romans in the New Testament sometime. Paul expresses how the only "proof" that exists is seeing the Holy Spirit work in people's lives.
(Also, in 1st century AD there was proof from the guys who knew Jesus was buried and was resurrected, but you can't substantiate that NOW).
I can understand having some healthy sketicism for ANYTHING, especially religion.
Unfortunately, all I see from you skeptics is mocking and disdain. If you actually want to hope to learn anything about what other people think
you need to be able to read the Bible with an open mind, and not blatant disregard.
Get outside your comfort zone a little bit. It's not going to hurt you.
I don't believe I have the power to convert you, or anything. I'm just trying to say, that unless you UNDERSTAND what you're talking about
with regards to Christianity, you can't possibly present the full argument for what you're saying.
TFGZ - I think you would be hard pressed to watch a sonogram and not believe that a fetus is a living thing.
I mean, premature babies born MONTHS and MONTHS early (during time that abortion is allowed) can survive.
I don't have a problem with people making their own choices.
But to suggest that you aren't killing a baby when you abort a fetus, older than a month or so, is just plain ignorant.
:sigh: You entirely misread that post. I never stated my personal view. What I actually said is that there is no biblical defense to the claim that abortion is murder. Because the authors, as demonstrated by that example, didn't treat the unborn as a life.
As far as being ignorant for not considering a 1 month old fetus a life, I would suggest that where the medical and legal community distinguishes brain death as a form of natural death, that a life doesn't begin until that level neural activity is achieved. Where it is illegal to perform an abortion in the 3rd trimester, the only time a fetus is viable, and when that level of neural activity develops, it is really a non-debate.
Look, whether you believe it or not, God exists and changes peoples lives for the better.
people change their lives for the better
some just think they're "forgiven" or it'll all be better tomorrow if they pray to a fictional character