As far as being ignorant for not considering a 1 month old fetus a life, I would suggest that where the medical and legal community distinguishes brain death as a form of natural death, that a life doesn't begin until that level neural activity is achieved. Where it is illegal to perform an abortion in the 3rd trimester, the only time a fetus is viable, and when that level of neural activity develops, it is really a non-debate.
They've sidestepped this argument by talking about the potential for life though. There's the potential for an embryo to develop into a living adult, so denying that life is therefore murder of the adult that will never be.
At least they don't believe that "every sperm is sacred"
Look, whether you believe it or not, God exists and changes peoples lives for the better.
Read Romans in the New Testament sometime. Paul expresses how the only "proof" that exists is seeing the Holy Spirit work in people's lives.
(Also, in 1st century AD there was proof from the guys who knew Jesus was buried and was resurrected, but you can't substantiate that NOW).
I can understand having some healthy sketicism for ANYTHING, especially religion.
Unfortunately, all I see from you skeptics is mocking and disdain. If you actually want to hope to learn anything about what other people think
you need to be able to read the Bible with an open mind, and not blatant disregard.
Get outside your comfort zone a little bit. It's not going to hurt you.
I don't believe I have the power to convert you, or anything. I'm just trying to say, that unless you UNDERSTAND what you're talking about
with regards to Christianity, you can't possibly present the full argument for what you're saying.
I have every right to believe as i do. just becaues you say god exists does not mean it so. this is way i cant talk to people about religion i feel they push it on me. Well whether you like it or not i believe he does not exist. it angers me to have it pushed on me by people flat out telling me im wrong or im going to hell. i should be able to choose for myself.
and i have read some of the bible and i used to go to church and sunday school and it did nothing for me
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
months ago? Hope you don't mind me asking, but what happened in the last 2-3 months that changed your thinking from 'there may be a God' to 'there is NO God'? I was surprised by it, too, but I did extensive research. A lot more than I did when I was agnostic.
That doesn't answer much. What extensive research "proved" to you that there is no God?
What extensive research proved that there IS a god?
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
Religion usally isnt a good topic for forums like this. Im 100 percent a beliver in Jesus. Problems lie in the fact that Christinaty has become more of a term and the ture meaning of what Christ preached has been lost in the mordern generation. Being a Christian doesnt mean a good person who does good all the time. It means a person has admitted to the Lord that they are a sinner and they need him to save them. There is absoulty nothing a person can do themselves to be saved. Going to church every day for your entire life wont save you, giving everything you own to the poor wont save you, being a good person wont save you, the only way to be saved is accepting Jesus and beliving. While in this human flesh were blinded by this world and dont have the mind to see past it. People are given freewill to live as they want and decide if they want to give their lives to Christ or not. I just dont see the point of us even existing if this is it. What is the point of scratching away day after day knowing once you die its over. What keeps the world from going into total choas. I try to be completly honest about things and I can say if it wasnt for my firm belife in Jesus, I would be a bad person. Its the fear of God that keeps me from seriously hurting people and doing whatever means to get what I want. I firmly belive its the hand of God that keeps evil from completly taking over the world. Being a cop I can tell you it isnt the fear of going to jail that keeps bad people from doing bad things, some higher power does it
For those who want to read on ill try and sum things up. God who has exisited from forever had a angel in heaven called Lucifer. Lucifer who was called the angel of light because of his beauty, decided he just didnt want to be under God and thought the other angels should worship him also. he lead other angels to follow him, which are now called demons. So God said sorry son I dont think so ,so Lucifer and the fallen angles were thrown out of the 3 Heaven. God then put his plan into work to get rid of Lucifer forever. The plan was mankind. He made man knowing what would happen. Of course the devil tempted AdaM and Eve, So the prideful devil said look God man chose to follow me. Well from that point on man had fallen becoming sinners. But then God himself came to earth as a man Jesus. So he actually experiniced birth and all the things we do. But he was perferct and never sinned. So when Satan had Jesus crucified he shed innocent blood forever sealing his doom. So where the Jews used to sarcife animals for forgivness. God himself became that sarcfice for all who belive in him. So were saved by grace of Jesus sacrifce. Right now God is allowing satan to run this world until the last person that will be saved accepts Christ and the God will step in and put a end to the world as we know it. The world will never end it will be here forever just those who arent saved wont be here. I didnt write this to start a big debate. Way I see it we will all die ,a person can stand on the tallest building shouting that there is no God. People can choose to do whatever they want and scoff. But in actuality I think it takes more faith to belive there isnt a God.
I think the biggest lie satan uses to decive people from accepting Jesus is the way Christians are percived as goody goodies. A Christian isnt no where near perfect and do good all the time, their people who sin and struggle like everyone else. The difference is they call out to Jesus to save them because they know they cant save themselves. As far as living in this world til I move on to my permanant home I try to be nice to eveyone and live as God want me to but I know as long as im in this body ill fall short of Gods reqiurments. Being one of the older guys im in my forties so life is pretty much half over for me. I look back and wonder how I got from 18 to 40 so fast, Ive spent way to much time at funerals over the last few year to have a prideful attitude about life.
One last thing because this is always brought up when talking about God. Why does God let bad things happen and why do people get sick and die.
We look at thing from a wordly standpoint and God looks at things a different way. When do people call on God usally its not unless something bad has happened. If a person is on the fast track to hell and they get a terminal illness and get down and confess to Jesus and get saved they may not be healed but go on to be with the Lord. So they were saved. If God were to heal someone who is dying and they end up not ever being saved and go to hell, they ended up worse off.
Like I said Im not perfect but saved. I have my belifes and will not try and shove them down anyones throat. Because its God that gives us freewill to live this life as we choose.
What extensive research proved that there IS a god?
None. No one can demonstrate that God exists, and someone mentioned earlier you cannot prove something does not exist if it has never been demonstrated to exist in the first place.
However, that really only applies to the notion of God in the abstract. It's much easier to say a God that has been quantified by a religion does not exist. For example the Catholic doctrine that states that God is good, loving and truthful is refutable where God is necessarily the source of evil, hatred and deception as the supreme creator.
Look, whether you believe it or not, God exists and changes peoples lives for the better.
people change their lives for the better
some just think they're "forgiven" or it'll all be better tomorrow if they pray to a fictional character
So who decides what's moral? If your boundries don't come from the bible (i.e. golden rule, treat your neighbor how you would want to be treated, don't kill, steal, ect.) How do you go about deciding what's right or wrong? You say you enjoy being able to think for yourself, certianly you wouldn't follow the BIbles standard for morality considering it was written by man? Do you just go by what feels right for you, or do you do what's convenient and clean?
I don't understand the need for morality if there is no consequence for choosing to live otherwise. Why not steel, cheat, kill, lie, do what you have to get ahead on this planet and make a comfortable life for yourself? Certianly being a person who thinks for himself you don't choose to conform to societies standard of morality? You wouldn't allow another man tell you what's right or wrong, would you?
Well, I can safely say that I'm a very moral person and I havn't had these morals influenced by the bible in any way. I think there are inately human concepts of right and wrong, the bible is just one of the first to identify these concepts.
Well, I can safely say that I'm a very moral person and I havn't had these morals influenced by the bible in any way. I think there are inately human concepts of right and wrong, the bible is just one of the first to identify these concepts.
Actually the Old Testament largely draws on much earlier sources for it's laws such as the Code of Hammurabi, and the Egyptian Book of Going Forth by Day aka Book of the Dead.
Exactly, these concepts have been arround since the dawn of man's existance; therfore i beleive it to be instinct or an inate view of right and wrong. I can say that I would never steal kill or do anything moraly wrong even if there were no consequences for it in this life or the next. Although I cannot speak for everybody when I say this.
Well, I can safely say that I'm a very moral person and I havn't had these morals influenced by the bible in any way. I think there are inately human concepts of right and wrong, the bible is just one of the first to identify these concepts.
Well, people were certainly able to make moral / immoral choices long before the Bible was ever written but I believe you give humans far to much credit. A little more than 100 years ago it was morally acceptable (according to us humans) to OWN slaves? This wasn't a small % of the population this was damn near the whole nation. Histrory buffs could explain better the ill nature of 'us' human beings over the course of time.
I believe there are innate concepts of morality right/wrong but not devised or decided by humans : )
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Well, I'm not a Bible buff, but I'd like you to show me where in the New Testament there is any condoning of slavery. But then again, the Bible was written by fallable HUMAN beings so i wouldn't doubt it. Which is why I say there are innate concepts of right or wrong but not innate to human beings. By nature we are narcassistic, greedy, lustful, ect..
well its like I said everyone has freewill. ten million posts wont change my belifes and I wont post 10 million trying to make someone belive what I do .
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Well, I'm not a Bible buff, but I'd like you to show me where in the New Testament there is any condoning of slavery. But then again, the Bible was written by fallable HUMAN beings so i wouldn't doubt it. Which is why I say there are innate concepts of right or wrong but not innate to human beings. By nature we are narcassistic, greedy, lustful, ect..
I agree with you on this one, whether these concepts where created by god, or by human evolution I cannot say that I know the answer.
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Well, I'm not a Bible buff, but I'd like you to show me where in the New Testament there is any condoning of slavery. But then again, the Bible was written by fallable HUMAN beings so i wouldn't doubt it. Which is why I say there are innate concepts of right or wrong but not innate to human beings. By nature we are narcassistic, greedy, lustful, ect..
The laws concerning slaves are in the OT. Neither Jesus nor St. Paul are recorded as opposing the practice of slavery, what Jesus was recorded as saying was "till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"(meaning the OT). The NT references are Matthew 18, Mark 14, and Luke 12.
Human morality is in evolution, it changes with time as was the case with slavery. It is for this reason that religion is entirely unacceptable as a source of law, once a law is ascribed to as having come from God it is very difficult to then change that law if/when morality evolves beyond it.
"Human morality is in evolution" Are you saying it was alright to kill until humans decided/ devised laws that stated otherwise? My opinion is that since the dawn of time, killing another human being is/was immoral, regardless of a fallable human beings interepretation of it.
Obviously this is just one example but relevant to all moral / imorral actions.
"Human morality is in evolution" Are you saying it was alright to kill until humans decided/ devised laws that stated otherwise? My opinion is that since the dawn of time, killing another human being is/was immoral, regardless of a fallable human beings interepretation of it.
Obviously this is just one example but relevant to all moral / imorral actions.
Murder is actually the extreame example. And basically, yes humans did sit down and decide what forms of murder were acceptable to the community, and how the unacceptable forms would be dealt with. Humans have never agreed that all forms of murder are immoral.
An easier example to work with is theft. We as humans have collectively decided that personal property is important, and have devised rules to protect it. If that hadn't been decided, if humans had adopted a 'what's mine is yours' attitude, there would be no such thing as theft.
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Dan, you're absolutely right. We were having a civil conversation on the topic until the mocking/ridiculing tone took over on the disbelief side of the argument.
At least you seem to be more grown up about the subject.
After posting last night I had some discussion with my wife about the topic, and we got off on a tangent about "activist atheists". How ridiculous it is that someone feels impuned by other people talking about religious experiences, or praying in a group.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone prayer in school, but a "moment of silence" is just fine. My issue with state organized prayer, is that it's my place to teach my kids about our belief structure, not the schools.
The "activists" I'm referring to are grown adults that get bitchy about prayer in the military and stuff like that. I mean, you're a grown man, act like it. If you don't like the prayer before you go into battle, then just tune it out. It always just strikes me as people that have some deficiency that they need to compensate for by making a big stink where there didn't need to be one.
To whoever it was that questioned what reinforces my belief: once you experience God in your daily life, you see the changes that He makes in your life and the lives of others (I'm not talking about some prosperity gospel or any of that ridiculous shit). When I say changes, I'm saying changes in the people themselves, not their circumstances. God isn't some magic genie that grants my wishes. He is a bottomless well of hope, love, peace, and well-being. And once you've been touched by that, you're different.
The atheists that don't see this (and may never see this), probably surround themselves with similarly close-minded people who aren't genuinely interested in determining if God exists. I would imagine that for some it's just "cool" to run with the emo-crowd and mock people who have a genuine belief system. If instead, you chose to surround yourself with people who did believe in God, and trusted Him, you would begin to be able to see some of His influence.
Like Dan, I'm done with this discussion. A battle of words doesn't win this for either side.
You have to experience it to understand it. If you go through life with disdain and mocking, you'll never see what is truly important. I'm not going to think any less of you for it. Because frankly, it's not my call, and it rests firmly between you and God.
We would all do well to not let this discussion hurt our friendships on the rest of the forum.
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Just because slavery occured in biblical times and is documented as such, does not equate to condoning the practice.
Also, that slavery is different. It was more of an "indentured servitude". American slavery was owning people that every thought were animals. BIG difference.
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Just because slavery occured in biblical times and is documented as such, does not equate to condoning the practice.
Also, that slavery is different. It was more of an "indentured servitude". American slavery was owning people that every thought were animals. BIG difference.
There are laws concerning the practice of slavery in the OT, not just a mention of the practice occuring. Including laws concerning the terms of selling your daughter into slavery. Owning a human is owning a human, regardless of how the slaves were treated it was still slavery. American slaves may have been treated more poorly, but that didn't make the Hebrew slaves any more free. Think before you type.
If you don't support it, stop defending it. Frankly, it's an insult to Hebrew slaves where you're basically suggesting that they had it easy. It also doesn't change the fact that those passages were the grounds for the defense that slavery is a God given right. Selling your daughter to the pleasure of another man as essentially a concubine is hardly a respectable practice, but that was the doctrine, and not precisely what we would define today as the treatment of a 'person'. But there again we've evolved well beyond biblical morality, which coming full circle is the point.
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Dan, you're absolutely right. We were having a civil conversation on the topic until the mocking/ridiculing tone took over on the disbelief side of the argument.
At least you seem to be more grown up about the subject.
After posting last night I had some discussion with my wife about the topic, and we got off on a tangent about "activist atheists". How ridiculous it is that someone feels impuned by other people talking about religious experiences, or praying in a group.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone prayer in school, but a "moment of silence" is just fine. My issue with state organized prayer, is that it's my place to teach my kids about our belief structure, not the schools.
The "activists" I'm referring to are grown adults that get bitchy about prayer in the military and stuff like that. I mean, you're a grown man, act like it. If you don't like the prayer before you go into battle, then just tune it out. It always just strikes me as people that have some deficiency that they need to compensate for by making a big stink where there didn't need to be one.
To whoever it was that questioned what reinforces my belief: once you experience God in your daily life, you see the changes that He makes in your life and the lives of others (I'm not talking about some prosperity gospel or any of that ridiculous shit). When I say changes, I'm saying changes in the people themselves, not their circumstances. God isn't some magic genie that grants my wishes. He is a bottomless well of hope, love, peace, and well-being. And once you've been touched by that, you're different.
The atheists that don't see this (and may never see this), probably surround themselves with similarly close-minded people who aren't genuinely interested in determining if God exists. I would imagine that for some it's just "cool" to run with the emo-crowd and mock people who have a genuine belief system. If instead, you chose to surround yourself with people who did believe in God, and trusted Him, you would begin to be able to see some of His influence.
Like Dan, I'm done with this discussion. A battle of words doesn't win this for either side.
You have to experience it to understand it. If you go through life with disdain and mocking, you'll never see what is truly important. I'm not going to think any less of you for it. Because frankly, it's not my call, and it rests firmly between you and God.
We would all do well to not let this discussion hurt our friendships on the rest of the forum.
I was not mocking anyone i was stating my opinion. i said nothing about praying in school I was giving an example of how they freak out when you try to have a religious talk/depate.
I have no one to talk to about it. i have no emo croud or whatever the hell your talking about. my family is religious i am the black sheep you could say. I had one friend in high school who was atheist the i could discuss matters with. i never questioned or mocked anyones religion i only spoke on the subject when it was brought up.
And you Arch 8ngle are thick headed like my mom. i cant talk to her cause she wont hear other views. she doesnt want to hear my point of view on religion. and yes my family is part of the christian group.
and we can have a civil conversation. just post you opinions and i will post mine just dont force religion down my throat.
I'm not defending anything, I'm just clarifying that there is a big difference between the two practices.
I don't suggest that they "had it easy". I'm suggesting that they lived a very different lifestyle from enslaved Africans in the 18th and 19th centuries.
People abuse scripture all the time. I think that people using the Bible for the defense of evil practices will get what is coming to them, at some point.
There are lots of wolves in sheeps clothing in the world. It's important to distinguish between real Christians, and people who claim to be Christian but obviously are nothing but a tool of deception.
But again, just because ancient people had civic laws seen in the Bible regarding slavery, etc, does not directly state that those were laws ordained by God.
They are simply a record of "how it was" at the time.
The laws provided by God are the 10 commandments, and the new covenant provided by Jesus Christ.
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Dan, you're absolutely right. We were having a civil conversation on the topic until the mocking/ridiculing tone took over on the disbelief side of the argument.
At least you seem to be more grown up about the subject.
After posting last night I had some discussion with my wife about the topic, and we got off on a tangent about "activist atheists". How ridiculous it is that someone feels impuned by other people talking about religious experiences, or praying in a group.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone prayer in school, but a "moment of silence" is just fine. My issue with state organized prayer, is that it's my place to teach my kids about our belief structure, not the schools.
The "activists" I'm referring to are grown adults that get bitchy about prayer in the military and stuff like that. I mean, you're a grown man, act like it. If you don't like the prayer before you go into battle, then just tune it out. It always just strikes me as people that have some deficiency that they need to compensate for by making a big stink where there didn't need to be one.
To whoever it was that questioned what reinforces my belief: once you experience God in your daily life, you see the changes that He makes in your life and the lives of others (I'm not talking about some prosperity gospel or any of that ridiculous shit). When I say changes, I'm saying changes in the people themselves, not their circumstances. God isn't some magic genie that grants my wishes. He is a bottomless well of hope, love, peace, and well-being. And once you've been touched by that, you're different.
The atheists that don't see this (and may never see this), probably surround themselves with similarly close-minded people who aren't genuinely interested in determining if God exists. I would imagine that for some it's just "cool" to run with the emo-crowd and mock people who have a genuine belief system. If instead, you chose to surround yourself with people who did believe in God, and trusted Him, you would begin to be able to see some of His influence.
Like Dan, I'm done with this discussion. A battle of words doesn't win this for either side.
You have to experience it to understand it. If you go through life with disdain and mocking, you'll never see what is truly important. I'm not going to think any less of you for it. Because frankly, it's not my call, and it rests firmly between you and God.
We would all do well to not let this discussion hurt our friendships on the rest of the forum.
I was not mocking anyone i was stating my opinion. i said nothing about praying in school I was giving an example of how they freak out when you try to have a religious talk/depate.
I have no one to talk to about it. i have no emo croud or whatever the hell your talking about. my family is religious i am the black sheep you could say. I had one friend in high school who was atheist the i could discuss matters with. i never questioned or mocked anyones religion i only spoke on the subject when it was brought up.
And you Arch 8ngle are thick headed like my mom. i cant talk to her cause she wont hear other views. she doesnt want to hear my point of view on religion. and yes my family is part of the christian group.
and we can have a civil conversation. just post you opinions and i will post mine just dont force religion down my throat.
Why so defensive? I don't think I was talking about you being the mocking one. I was more referring to the "flying spaghetti monster" and "invisible pink unicorn" crowd.
I think it's funny that you believe I'm thick headed because I have strong beliefs. I hear other views, but just because they don't cause me to lose my faith doesn't make me "thick headed".
I'm not forcing anything down your throat. You're reading/responding by choice, last time I checked.
I'm done with this conversation too, its turning into a flame fest like i thought it would. And thats from both sides of the argument. Also, I absolutely agree with arch_8gel about that last comment. This is why I don't personally like discussing this type of thing, because it develops into a heated argument.
It's too bad this thread is dying out. The discussion was fun until emotions flared up. Maybe next time (because there is always a next time), the thread will hit 4 pages before the flames begin to burn!
Theres two things that should really never be discuss because of the flame wars/ riots that break out because of it (not saying that that is happening here)
religion and politics
Its not a taboo subject but rather one that should not be discuss and just left alone
yup , however I have to say that some of the flaming was probably my fault and I apologize. I was refuting the other side rather than openly stating my beliefs. I know I'm not the only one, but I'd like to say I'm sorry for my part .
Comments
As far as being ignorant for not considering a 1 month old fetus a life, I would suggest that where the medical and legal community distinguishes brain death as a form of natural death, that a life doesn't begin until that level neural activity is achieved. Where it is illegal to perform an abortion in the 3rd trimester, the only time a fetus is viable, and when that level of neural activity develops, it is really a non-debate.
They've sidestepped this argument by talking about the potential for life though. There's the potential for an embryo to develop into a living adult, so denying that life is therefore murder of the adult that will never be.
At least they don't believe that "every sperm is sacred"
BONUS!!! -
Look, whether you believe it or not, God exists and changes peoples lives for the better.
Read Romans in the New Testament sometime. Paul expresses how the only "proof" that exists is seeing the Holy Spirit work in people's lives.
(Also, in 1st century AD there was proof from the guys who knew Jesus was buried and was resurrected, but you can't substantiate that NOW).
I can understand having some healthy sketicism for ANYTHING, especially religion.
Unfortunately, all I see from you skeptics is mocking and disdain. If you actually want to hope to learn anything about what other people think
you need to be able to read the Bible with an open mind, and not blatant disregard.
Get outside your comfort zone a little bit. It's not going to hurt you.
I don't believe I have the power to convert you, or anything. I'm just trying to say, that unless you UNDERSTAND what you're talking about
with regards to Christianity, you can't possibly present the full argument for what you're saying.
I have every right to believe as i do. just becaues you say god exists does not mean it so. this is way i cant talk to people about religion i feel they push it on me. Well whether you like it or not i believe he does not exist. it angers me to have it pushed on me by people flat out telling me im wrong or im going to hell. i should be able to choose for myself.
and i have read some of the bible and i used to go to church and sunday school and it did nothing for me
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
months ago? Hope you don't mind me asking, but what happened in the last 2-3 months that changed your thinking from 'there may be a God' to 'there is NO God'? I was surprised by it, too, but I did extensive research. A lot more than I did when I was agnostic.
That doesn't answer much. What extensive research "proved" to you that there is no God?
What extensive research proved that there IS a god?
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Religion usally isnt a good topic for forums like this. Im 100 percent a beliver in Jesus. Problems lie in the fact that Christinaty has become more of a term and the ture meaning of what Christ preached has been lost in the mordern generation. Being a Christian doesnt mean a good person who does good all the time. It means a person has admitted to the Lord that they are a sinner and they need him to save them. There is absoulty nothing a person can do themselves to be saved. Going to church every day for your entire life wont save you, giving everything you own to the poor wont save you, being a good person wont save you, the only way to be saved is accepting Jesus and beliving. While in this human flesh were blinded by this world and dont have the mind to see past it. People are given freewill to live as they want and decide if they want to give their lives to Christ or not. I just dont see the point of us even existing if this is it. What is the point of scratching away day after day knowing once you die its over. What keeps the world from going into total choas. I try to be completly honest about things and I can say if it wasnt for my firm belife in Jesus, I would be a bad person. Its the fear of God that keeps me from seriously hurting people and doing whatever means to get what I want. I firmly belive its the hand of God that keeps evil from completly taking over the world. Being a cop I can tell you it isnt the fear of going to jail that keeps bad people from doing bad things, some higher power does it
For those who want to read on ill try and sum things up. God who has exisited from forever had a angel in heaven called Lucifer. Lucifer who was called the angel of light because of his beauty, decided he just didnt want to be under God and thought the other angels should worship him also. he lead other angels to follow him, which are now called demons. So God said sorry son I dont think so ,so Lucifer and the fallen angles were thrown out of the 3 Heaven. God then put his plan into work to get rid of Lucifer forever. The plan was mankind. He made man knowing what would happen. Of course the devil tempted AdaM and Eve, So the prideful devil said look God man chose to follow me. Well from that point on man had fallen becoming sinners. But then God himself came to earth as a man Jesus. So he actually experiniced birth and all the things we do. But he was perferct and never sinned. So when Satan had Jesus crucified he shed innocent blood forever sealing his doom. So where the Jews used to sarcife animals for forgivness. God himself became that sarcfice for all who belive in him. So were saved by grace of Jesus sacrifce. Right now God is allowing satan to run this world until the last person that will be saved accepts Christ and the God will step in and put a end to the world as we know it. The world will never end it will be here forever just those who arent saved wont be here. I didnt write this to start a big debate. Way I see it we will all die ,a person can stand on the tallest building shouting that there is no God. People can choose to do whatever they want and scoff. But in actuality I think it takes more faith to belive there isnt a God.
I think the biggest lie satan uses to decive people from accepting Jesus is the way Christians are percived as goody goodies. A Christian isnt no where near perfect and do good all the time, their people who sin and struggle like everyone else. The difference is they call out to Jesus to save them because they know they cant save themselves. As far as living in this world til I move on to my permanant home I try to be nice to eveyone and live as God want me to but I know as long as im in this body ill fall short of Gods reqiurments. Being one of the older guys im in my forties so life is pretty much half over for me. I look back and wonder how I got from 18 to 40 so fast, Ive spent way to much time at funerals over the last few year to have a prideful attitude about life.
One last thing because this is always brought up when talking about God. Why does God let bad things happen and why do people get sick and die.
We look at thing from a wordly standpoint and God looks at things a different way. When do people call on God usally its not unless something bad has happened. If a person is on the fast track to hell and they get a terminal illness and get down and confess to Jesus and get saved they may not be healed but go on to be with the Lord. So they were saved. If God were to heal someone who is dying and they end up not ever being saved and go to hell, they ended up worse off.
Like I said Im not perfect but saved. I have my belifes and will not try and shove them down anyones throat. Because its God that gives us freewill to live this life as we choose.
What extensive research proved that there IS a god?
None. No one can demonstrate that God exists, and someone mentioned earlier you cannot prove something does not exist if it has never been demonstrated to exist in the first place.
However, that really only applies to the notion of God in the abstract. It's much easier to say a God that has been quantified by a religion does not exist. For example the Catholic doctrine that states that God is good, loving and truthful is refutable where God is necessarily the source of evil, hatred and deception as the supreme creator.
Look, whether you believe it or not, God exists and changes peoples lives for the better.
people change their lives for the better
some just think they're "forgiven" or it'll all be better tomorrow if they pray to a fictional character
So who decides what's moral? If your boundries don't come from the bible (i.e. golden rule, treat your neighbor how you would want to be treated, don't kill, steal, ect.) How do you go about deciding what's right or wrong? You say you enjoy being able to think for yourself, certianly you wouldn't follow the BIbles standard for morality considering it was written by man? Do you just go by what feels right for you, or do you do what's convenient and clean?
I don't understand the need for morality if there is no consequence for choosing to live otherwise. Why not steel, cheat, kill, lie, do what you have to get ahead on this planet and make a comfortable life for yourself? Certianly being a person who thinks for himself you don't choose to conform to societies standard of morality? You wouldn't allow another man tell you what's right or wrong, would you?
Well, I can safely say that I'm a very moral person and I havn't had these morals influenced by the bible in any way. I think there are inately human concepts of right and wrong, the bible is just one of the first to identify these concepts.
Actually the Old Testament largely draws on much earlier sources for it's laws such as the Code of Hammurabi, and the Egyptian Book of Going Forth by Day aka Book of the Dead.
Well, I can safely say that I'm a very moral person and I havn't had these morals influenced by the bible in any way. I think there are inately human concepts of right and wrong, the bible is just one of the first to identify these concepts.
Well, people were certainly able to make moral / immoral choices long before the Bible was ever written but I believe you give humans far to much credit. A little more than 100 years ago it was morally acceptable (according to us humans) to OWN slaves? This wasn't a small % of the population this was damn near the whole nation. Histrory buffs could explain better the ill nature of 'us' human beings over the course of time.
I believe there are innate concepts of morality right/wrong but not devised or decided by humans : )
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Well, I'm not a Bible buff, but I'd like you to show me where in the New Testament there is any condoning of slavery. But then again, the Bible was written by fallable HUMAN beings so i wouldn't doubt it. Which is why I say there are innate concepts of right or wrong but not innate to human beings. By nature we are narcassistic, greedy, lustful, ect..
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Well, I'm not a Bible buff, but I'd like you to show me where in the New Testament there is any condoning of slavery. But then again, the Bible was written by fallable HUMAN beings so i wouldn't doubt it. Which is why I say there are innate concepts of right or wrong but not innate to human beings. By nature we are narcassistic, greedy, lustful, ect..
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Well, I'm not a Bible buff, but I'd like you to show me where in the New Testament there is any condoning of slavery. But then again, the Bible was written by fallable HUMAN beings so i wouldn't doubt it. Which is why I say there are innate concepts of right or wrong but not innate to human beings. By nature we are narcassistic, greedy, lustful, ect..
The laws concerning slaves are in the OT. Neither Jesus nor St. Paul are recorded as opposing the practice of slavery, what Jesus was recorded as saying was "till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"(meaning the OT). The NT references are Matthew 18, Mark 14, and Luke 12.
Human morality is in evolution, it changes with time as was the case with slavery. It is for this reason that religion is entirely unacceptable as a source of law, once a law is ascribed to as having come from God it is very difficult to then change that law if/when morality evolves beyond it.
"Human morality is in evolution"
Are you saying it was alright to kill until humans decided/ devised laws that stated otherwise? My opinion is that since the dawn of time, killing another human being is/was immoral, regardless of a fallable human beings interepretation of it.
Obviously this is just one example but relevant to all moral / imorral actions.
"Human morality is in evolution"
Are you saying it was alright to kill until humans decided/ devised laws that stated otherwise? My opinion is that since the dawn of time, killing another human being is/was immoral, regardless of a fallable human beings interepretation of it.
Obviously this is just one example but relevant to all moral / imorral actions.
Murder is actually the extreame example. And basically, yes humans did sit down and decide what forms of murder were acceptable to the community, and how the unacceptable forms would be dealt with. Humans have never agreed that all forms of murder are immoral.
An easier example to work with is theft. We as humans have collectively decided that personal property is important, and have devised rules to protect it. If that hadn't been decided, if humans had adopted a 'what's mine is yours' attitude, there would be no such thing as theft.
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Dan, you're absolutely right. We were having a civil conversation on the topic until the mocking/ridiculing tone took over on the disbelief side of the argument.
At least you seem to be more grown up about the subject.
After posting last night I had some discussion with my wife about the topic, and we got off on a tangent about "activist atheists". How ridiculous it is that someone feels impuned by other people talking about religious experiences, or praying in a group.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone prayer in school, but a "moment of silence" is just fine. My issue with state organized prayer, is that it's my place to teach my kids about our belief structure, not the schools.
The "activists" I'm referring to are grown adults that get bitchy about prayer in the military and stuff like that. I mean, you're a grown man, act like it. If you don't like the prayer before you go into battle, then just tune it out. It always just strikes me as people that have some deficiency that they need to compensate for by making a big stink where there didn't need to be one.
To whoever it was that questioned what reinforces my belief: once you experience God in your daily life, you see the changes that He makes in your life and the lives of others (I'm not talking about some prosperity gospel or any of that ridiculous shit). When I say changes, I'm saying changes in the people themselves, not their circumstances. God isn't some magic genie that grants my wishes. He is a bottomless well of hope, love, peace, and well-being. And once you've been touched by that, you're different.
The atheists that don't see this (and may never see this), probably surround themselves with similarly close-minded people who aren't genuinely interested in determining if God exists. I would imagine that for some it's just "cool" to run with the emo-crowd and mock people who have a genuine belief system. If instead, you chose to surround yourself with people who did believe in God, and trusted Him, you would begin to be able to see some of His influence.
Like Dan, I'm done with this discussion. A battle of words doesn't win this for either side.
You have to experience it to understand it. If you go through life with disdain and mocking, you'll never see what is truly important. I'm not going to think any less of you for it. Because frankly, it's not my call, and it rests firmly between you and God.
We would all do well to not let this discussion hurt our friendships on the rest of the forum.
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Just because slavery occured in biblical times and is documented as such, does not equate to condoning the practice.
Also, that slavery is different. It was more of an "indentured servitude". American slavery was owning people that every thought were animals. BIG difference.
The bible condones slavery, and some of the most heated objection to emancipation came from the Christian pulpit, so I'm not real sure where you're going with that.
Just because slavery occured in biblical times and is documented as such, does not equate to condoning the practice.
Also, that slavery is different. It was more of an "indentured servitude". American slavery was owning people that every thought were animals. BIG difference.
There are laws concerning the practice of slavery in the OT, not just a mention of the practice occuring. Including laws concerning the terms of selling your daughter into slavery. Owning a human is owning a human, regardless of how the slaves were treated it was still slavery. American slaves may have been treated more poorly, but that didn't make the Hebrew slaves any more free. Think before you type.
The entire doctrine behind what was going on was different. I'm not supporting it in either case.
In the OT, they at least treated them like PEOPLE. American slaves were believed to be like animals, or beasts of burden.
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Dan, you're absolutely right. We were having a civil conversation on the topic until the mocking/ridiculing tone took over on the disbelief side of the argument.
At least you seem to be more grown up about the subject.
After posting last night I had some discussion with my wife about the topic, and we got off on a tangent about "activist atheists". How ridiculous it is that someone feels impuned by other people talking about religious experiences, or praying in a group.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone prayer in school, but a "moment of silence" is just fine. My issue with state organized prayer, is that it's my place to teach my kids about our belief structure, not the schools.
The "activists" I'm referring to are grown adults that get bitchy about prayer in the military and stuff like that. I mean, you're a grown man, act like it. If you don't like the prayer before you go into battle, then just tune it out. It always just strikes me as people that have some deficiency that they need to compensate for by making a big stink where there didn't need to be one.
To whoever it was that questioned what reinforces my belief: once you experience God in your daily life, you see the changes that He makes in your life and the lives of others (I'm not talking about some prosperity gospel or any of that ridiculous shit). When I say changes, I'm saying changes in the people themselves, not their circumstances. God isn't some magic genie that grants my wishes. He is a bottomless well of hope, love, peace, and well-being. And once you've been touched by that, you're different.
The atheists that don't see this (and may never see this), probably surround themselves with similarly close-minded people who aren't genuinely interested in determining if God exists. I would imagine that for some it's just "cool" to run with the emo-crowd and mock people who have a genuine belief system. If instead, you chose to surround yourself with people who did believe in God, and trusted Him, you would begin to be able to see some of His influence.
Like Dan, I'm done with this discussion. A battle of words doesn't win this for either side.
You have to experience it to understand it. If you go through life with disdain and mocking, you'll never see what is truly important. I'm not going to think any less of you for it. Because frankly, it's not my call, and it rests firmly between you and God.
We would all do well to not let this discussion hurt our friendships on the rest of the forum.
I was not mocking anyone i was stating my opinion. i said nothing about praying in school I was giving an example of how they freak out when you try to have a religious talk/depate.
I have no one to talk to about it. i have no emo croud or whatever the hell your talking about. my family is religious i am the black sheep you could say. I had one friend in high school who was atheist the i could discuss matters with. i never questioned or mocked anyones religion i only spoke on the subject when it was brought up.
And you Arch 8ngle are thick headed like my mom. i cant talk to her cause she wont hear other views. she doesnt want to hear my point of view on religion. and yes my family is part of the christian group.
and we can have a civil conversation. just post you opinions and i will post mine just dont force religion down my throat.
I'm not defending anything, I'm just clarifying that there is a big difference between the two practices.
I don't suggest that they "had it easy". I'm suggesting that they lived a very different lifestyle from enslaved Africans in the 18th and 19th centuries.
People abuse scripture all the time. I think that people using the Bible for the defense of evil practices will get what is coming to them, at some point.
There are lots of wolves in sheeps clothing in the world. It's important to distinguish between real Christians, and people who claim to be Christian but obviously are nothing but a tool of deception.
But again, just because ancient people had civic laws seen in the Bible regarding slavery, etc, does not directly state that those were laws ordained by God.
They are simply a record of "how it was" at the time.
The laws provided by God are the 10 commandments, and the new covenant provided by Jesus Christ.
This is NOT a good topic to talk about cause no matter what religion will cause fights.
Actually I was interested in this thread and thought it to be very civil until certain nonreligious people made some inflammatory comments and then got defensive. Hence - it's not the religion, what caused the fight.
/done with this thread
Dan, you're absolutely right. We were having a civil conversation on the topic until the mocking/ridiculing tone took over on the disbelief side of the argument.
At least you seem to be more grown up about the subject.
After posting last night I had some discussion with my wife about the topic, and we got off on a tangent about "activist atheists". How ridiculous it is that someone feels impuned by other people talking about religious experiences, or praying in a group.
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone prayer in school, but a "moment of silence" is just fine. My issue with state organized prayer, is that it's my place to teach my kids about our belief structure, not the schools.
The "activists" I'm referring to are grown adults that get bitchy about prayer in the military and stuff like that. I mean, you're a grown man, act like it. If you don't like the prayer before you go into battle, then just tune it out. It always just strikes me as people that have some deficiency that they need to compensate for by making a big stink where there didn't need to be one.
To whoever it was that questioned what reinforces my belief: once you experience God in your daily life, you see the changes that He makes in your life and the lives of others (I'm not talking about some prosperity gospel or any of that ridiculous shit). When I say changes, I'm saying changes in the people themselves, not their circumstances. God isn't some magic genie that grants my wishes. He is a bottomless well of hope, love, peace, and well-being. And once you've been touched by that, you're different.
The atheists that don't see this (and may never see this), probably surround themselves with similarly close-minded people who aren't genuinely interested in determining if God exists. I would imagine that for some it's just "cool" to run with the emo-crowd and mock people who have a genuine belief system. If instead, you chose to surround yourself with people who did believe in God, and trusted Him, you would begin to be able to see some of His influence.
Like Dan, I'm done with this discussion. A battle of words doesn't win this for either side.
You have to experience it to understand it. If you go through life with disdain and mocking, you'll never see what is truly important. I'm not going to think any less of you for it. Because frankly, it's not my call, and it rests firmly between you and God.
We would all do well to not let this discussion hurt our friendships on the rest of the forum.
I was not mocking anyone i was stating my opinion. i said nothing about praying in school I was giving an example of how they freak out when you try to have a religious talk/depate.
I have no one to talk to about it. i have no emo croud or whatever the hell your talking about. my family is religious i am the black sheep you could say. I had one friend in high school who was atheist the i could discuss matters with. i never questioned or mocked anyones religion i only spoke on the subject when it was brought up.
And you Arch 8ngle are thick headed like my mom. i cant talk to her cause she wont hear other views. she doesnt want to hear my point of view on religion. and yes my family is part of the christian group.
and we can have a civil conversation. just post you opinions and i will post mine just dont force religion down my throat.
Why so defensive? I don't think I was talking about you being the mocking one. I was more referring to the "flying spaghetti monster" and "invisible pink unicorn" crowd.
I think it's funny that you believe I'm thick headed because I have strong beliefs. I hear other views, but just because they don't cause me to lose my faith doesn't make me "thick headed".
I'm not forcing anything down your throat. You're reading/responding by choice, last time I checked.
I'm done with this conversation too, its turning into a flame fest like i thought it would. And thats from both sides of the argument. Also, I absolutely agree with arch_8gel about that last comment. This is why I don't personally like discussing this type of thing, because it develops into a heated argument.
Theres two things that should really never be discuss because of the flame wars/ riots that break out because of it (not saying that that is happening here)
religion and politics
Its not a taboo subject but rather one that should not be discuss and just left alone
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