HoS Icons
When I first started here on NA, my very first transaction was a terrible one. I was fortunate enough to deal with Manifesto.
Now, before you say "you should have looked at the Hall of Shame", I was new, within an hour of posting my WTB thread, I had an offer that was really good, so I took it. I figured, like most people, hey, why the hell not? I was NEW and didn't even know about the HoS.
Now, the icons by a users name is very noticeable. Hover your mouse, and it say "Hall of Shame". You see that, you're like "wtf is the HoS"? and you search the forums. You find the thread, and you see why they're in there. THEN you can determine if you want to deal with said person.
I think the icons should be on everyone's profile who's in the HoS. I know a good portion of those people are generally banned, but a good portion isn't. I don't feel as though members have to research every person they do transactions with, especially when there's already a system in place for such a thing. Let the users know that the person they're about to deal with is in the HoS, and let them do the research from there to decide if they want to do business with them.
I don't want to deal with anyone from the HoS, and I'm sure plenty of people feel the same way. Some of us do a lot of transactions throughout the weeks and months to make searching the HoS a nightmare for every transaction we do. Sure, some offenses aren't as severe as the other (miscommunication, time waster, slow shipping, etc), but it's good t know that someone is in there and what to generally expect when dealing with them.
I know a few people who said "It would have been nice to know they were in the HoS prior to the transaction, just so I was expecting a delayed shipping and bad communication, but that I'd still get my items".
Thoughts?
Now, before you say "you should have looked at the Hall of Shame", I was new, within an hour of posting my WTB thread, I had an offer that was really good, so I took it. I figured, like most people, hey, why the hell not? I was NEW and didn't even know about the HoS.
Now, the icons by a users name is very noticeable. Hover your mouse, and it say "Hall of Shame". You see that, you're like "wtf is the HoS"? and you search the forums. You find the thread, and you see why they're in there. THEN you can determine if you want to deal with said person.
I think the icons should be on everyone's profile who's in the HoS. I know a good portion of those people are generally banned, but a good portion isn't. I don't feel as though members have to research every person they do transactions with, especially when there's already a system in place for such a thing. Let the users know that the person they're about to deal with is in the HoS, and let them do the research from there to decide if they want to do business with them.
I don't want to deal with anyone from the HoS, and I'm sure plenty of people feel the same way. Some of us do a lot of transactions throughout the weeks and months to make searching the HoS a nightmare for every transaction we do. Sure, some offenses aren't as severe as the other (miscommunication, time waster, slow shipping, etc), but it's good t know that someone is in there and what to generally expect when dealing with them.
I know a few people who said "It would have been nice to know they were in the HoS prior to the transaction, just so I was expecting a delayed shipping and bad communication, but that I'd still get my items".
Thoughts?
Comments
Someone who was a new guy and retracts a bid in an NA auction doesn't deserve to have the HOS mark of death for life. It's not an indication that he's a scammer, it's just an indication that he didn't read his FAQ.
I think people put too much emphasis on the HOS these days. There are plenty of HOS members I'd still deal with. It's just a resource, shouldn't be the end all decision maker for if someone is trustworthy.
I guess what I would propose is exactly what Dra600n is suggesting, but maybe limit it to other than people who failed to read the FAQ and made one mistake. Those people should still be disciplined in some way though.
Originally posted by: PeteDiak
I feel once there in the HOS they have nothing too lose, regardless why there in it. So I agree with Dragoon.
But that's the problem, not all entries in the HOS are equal.
It's one thing to be a scammer, all of them should be avoided if there is proof of them trying to scam or stealing people's money. That's HOS material (and probably banworthy).
But someone retracting a bid on an NA auction? Someone who's a bit of a time waster? I would consider that more annoying behavior than anything.
Since so many people take the HOS so literally as a mark of death and avoid that member at all costs, there really should be a designation or tiered system. A true scammer is in a league of their own compared to petty stuff. That's why the legal system has felonies and misdemeaners. Maybe a red HOS icon for HOS felonies, and a yellow HOS icon for HOS misdemeanors...
Originally posted by: jonebone
Originally posted by: PeteDiak
I feel once there in the HOS they have nothing too lose, regardless why there in it. So I agree with Dragoon.
But that's the problem, not all entries in the HOS are equal.
It's one thing to be a scammer, all of them should be avoided if there is proof of them trying to scam or stealing people's money. That's HOS material (and probably banworthy).
But someone retracting a bid on an NA auction? Someone who's a bit of a time waster? I would consider that more annoying behavior than anything.
Since so many people take the HOS so literally as a mark of death and avoid that member at all costs, there really should be a designation or tiered system. A true scammer is in a league of their own compared to petty stuff. That's why the legal system has felonies and misdemeaners. Maybe a red HOS icon for HOS felonies, and a yellow HOS icon for HOS misdemeanors...
Yes, definitely need a distinction.
Green- violated terms, one time offense
Yellow- violated terms, repeat offender
Red- repeat offender, scammer, not to be dealt with
Originally posted by: Br81zad
I fully agree with the HOS icon. Maybe use the same icon, but with different colors for varying severity of offenses.
Green- violated terms, one time offense
Yellow- violated terms, repeat offender
Red- repeat offender, scammer, not to be dealt with
I like this idea as well. But the problem is finding someone with the time that would want to change everything.
The "borderline" cases in the HoS are often complete BS but (for example) if you read Joseph's entry you don't get the real story I just told you.... You might not want to trade with such a person!
So, perhaps because I think many of the lesser offenders shouldn't even be listed in such a thread, I say leave it so only the serious cases have icons and people like Joseph can at least get them removed eventually.
If a change was to be made, I would say maybe people's overall feedback score for everyone listed somewhere near their name. That way someone who screwed up one one out of 200 transactions isn't as "shamed" as someone with one out of three.
Anyway, I think an icon hierarchy (2 or 3 different levels) with permanent icons is a good idea, personally.
Originally posted by: JKeefe56
I agree that the hall of shame really covers a very broad range of offenses. But if they stick to having the icon for people who have more severe offenses, I think that's good. Yeah, it's not always possible for them to to find ways to warn us about lesser offenders, but they provide the information, and they do it for free.
If a change was to be made, I would say maybe people's overall feedback score for everyone listed somewhere near their name. That way someone who screwed up one one out of 200 transactions isn't as "shamed" as someone with one out of three.
Feedback score doesn't totally help because I'd rather deal with somebody who has one negative out of three for slow shipping than somebody with 100 postives and 1 straight up scam/theft (assuming they're not banned lol). Not all negatives are equal, just like how not all HoS members are equal.
Bad idea. So many people are in there for really dumb things: JosephLeo is in there because he publicly admitted that he attempted (and FAILED) to backdoor a SE on ebay. The auction had tons of bids and watchers (was getting backdoored regardless) and the SE turned out to be fake. Joseph was new and didn't know that PMing ebay sellers in such a way was frowned upon here. He apologized, was mocked by the mod running the HOS and is still listed there (I think he had an icon that was eventually removed?).
The "borderline" cases in the HoS are often complete BS but (for example) if you read Joseph's entry you don't get the real story I just told you.... You might not want to trade with such a person!
So, perhaps because I think many of the lesser offenders shouldn't even be listed in such a thread, I say leave it so only the serious cases have icons and people like Joseph can at least get them removed eventually.
Truth be told though, how many people on the list actually fix their reputation. I know at least if given the chance maybe kevinu86 could. But beyond that it's very rare. Also, I'm cool with the mods here. In fact I believe it was me and MrMark who bumped heads back then. Now I consider him a freind. I think CapnMorgan as well but I never really spoke with the dude.
Originally posted by: JosephLeo
Originally posted by: rhetoric614
Bad idea. So many people are in there for really dumb things: JosephLeo is in there because he publicly admitted that he attempted (and FAILED) to backdoor a SE on ebay. The auction had tons of bids and watchers (was getting backdoored regardless) and the SE turned out to be fake. Joseph was new and didn't know that PMing ebay sellers in such a way was frowned upon here. He apologized, was mocked by the mod running the HOS and is still listed there (I think he had an icon that was eventually removed?).
The "borderline" cases in the HoS are often complete BS but (for example) if you read Joseph's entry you don't get the real story I just told you.... You might not want to trade with such a person!
So, perhaps because I think many of the lesser offenders shouldn't even be listed in such a thread, I say leave it so only the serious cases have icons and people like Joseph can at least get them removed eventually.
Truth be told though, how many people on the list actually fix their reputation. I know at least if given the chance maybe kevinu86 could. But beyond that it's very rare. Also, I'm cool with the mods here. In fact I believe it was me and MrMark who bumped heads back then. Now I consider him a freind. I think CapnMorgan as well but I never really spoke with the dude.
No don't get me wrong I'm not bashing mods my bad...
What I am saying is that some people are still in there for things that happened long ago and the HoS does not really capture the context. For you (JosephLeo) to have a HoS icon NOW would be silly. That's all I'm saying.
When I first took up Hall duties, this site had a small fraction of the members it does today. It was not intended to be a crucifix to pin up every single member that messed up, just as a record of events. Prior to Nick Morgan ruining his rep for the 12th time, many people had no idea he had been convicted of fraud from resealing games years before. Without a public record of previous mistakes, people wouldn't be able to educate themselves on whether or not they should deal with a member. Raregamergirl had several (as in, more than 1) website dedicated to her poor selling practices, as well as threads on nearly every major gaming forum aside from this one. Without her mention in the Hall, you wouldn't necessarily know that. I was happy making information public that could potentially save someone from getting burned by someone with a questionable history.
There are plenty of members I would deal with any time (JosephLeo is a perfect example) and others I wouldn't piss out if they were on fire. The information is helpful regardless.
As for the icon, well, I took over the Hall prior to being a mod. I never had any control over who got icons and who didn't. I didn't open that conversation for the most part even when I was a mod. I don't think there is one perfect solution (all or nothing would include minor mistakes, different colors would lead to additional coding and headaches on how "severe" an offense is, etc.), but I fully support everything the mods/admin team do.
Honestly, some members that I have dealt with turned out to be a difficult transaction. Sure, I could have done my due diligence on each and every member (I have well over 200 transactions on here, while only 137ish are unique), that would be a lot of time spent to search each person up and such.
Most of the major HoS members are typically banned, but people who have horrible communication skills, or extremely slow shipping, or doesn't describe the items properly, or whatever the reason is, I'd like to know that they've had previous dealings like this before making my judgment call. I don't believe it's fair to make everyone search for every person they start a transaction with. Yes, that's my opinion, and I stick by it
Regardless of what the powers that be determine to be the final say, I'll respect their decisions. And I'm glad to see people share my views on this as well as had offered up some other alternative ideas too
Originally posted by: dra600n
I like the idea of tiered icons.
Honestly, some members that I have dealt with turned out to be a difficult transaction. Sure, I could have done my due diligence on each and every member (I have well over 200 transactions on here, while only 137ish are unique), that would be a lot of time spent to search each person up and such.
Most of the major HoS members are typically banned, but people who have horrible communication skills, or extremely slow shipping, or doesn't describe the items properly, or whatever the reason is, I'd like to know that they've had previous dealings like this before making my judgment call. I don't believe it's fair to make everyone search for every person they start a transaction with. Yes, that's my opinion, and I stick by it
Regardless of what the powers that be determine to be the final say, I'll respect their decisions. And I'm glad to see people share my views on this as well as had offered up some other alternative ideas too
In a perfect world, that's what the feedback system should tell you. But just about everybody is afraid to be honest due to the lingering fear of retaliatory feedback if they ding somebody.
Originally posted by: captmorgandrinker
Originally posted by: dra600n
I like the idea of tiered icons.
Honestly, some members that I have dealt with turned out to be a difficult transaction. Sure, I could have done my due diligence on each and every member (I have well over 200 transactions on here, while only 137ish are unique), that would be a lot of time spent to search each person up and such.
Most of the major HoS members are typically banned, but people who have horrible communication skills, or extremely slow shipping, or doesn't describe the items properly, or whatever the reason is, I'd like to know that they've had previous dealings like this before making my judgment call. I don't believe it's fair to make everyone search for every person they start a transaction with. Yes, that's my opinion, and I stick by it
Regardless of what the powers that be determine to be the final say, I'll respect their decisions. And I'm glad to see people share my views on this as well as had offered up some other alternative ideas too
In a perfect world, that's what the feedback system should tell you. But just about everybody is afraid to be honest due to the lingering fear of retaliatory feedback if they ding somebody.
I honestly feel that the feedback issues on this site are the bigger problem here. I think that if anything, we should take a look at what we can do to alter the feedback system we have in place so that we can see more honest feedback. It's kinda a joke at this point and isn't really a good indicator of anything.
Originally posted by: SamSpade
Originally posted by: captmorgandrinker
Originally posted by: dra600n
I like the idea of tiered icons.
Honestly, some members that I have dealt with turned out to be a difficult transaction. Sure, I could have done my due diligence on each and every member (I have well over 200 transactions on here, while only 137ish are unique), that would be a lot of time spent to search each person up and such.
Most of the major HoS members are typically banned, but people who have horrible communication skills, or extremely slow shipping, or doesn't describe the items properly, or whatever the reason is, I'd like to know that they've had previous dealings like this before making my judgment call. I don't believe it's fair to make everyone search for every person they start a transaction with. Yes, that's my opinion, and I stick by it
Regardless of what the powers that be determine to be the final say, I'll respect their decisions. And I'm glad to see people share my views on this as well as had offered up some other alternative ideas too
In a perfect world, that's what the feedback system should tell you. But just about everybody is afraid to be honest due to the lingering fear of retaliatory feedback if they ding somebody.
I honestly feel that the feedback issues on this site are the bigger problem here. I think that if anything, we should take a look at what we can do to alter the feedback system we have in place so that we can see more honest feedback. It's kinda a joke at this point and isn't really a good indicator of anything.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. A "simple" solution (don't know about implementation) would be to just not make the feedback visible in either party's profile until both of them have entered in their own comments.
Originally posted by: alexkidd401
Please don't change the feedback system. With this influx of new users, it's not the smartest idea. People will leave bad feedback for some of the stupidest reasons or even out of spite.
That's what Tonya was suggesting - don't allow each party to see what the other person left until both parties left feedback and the transaction is closed. I was a bit confused by what she said at first as well, but I think that's a great idea, but still doesn't address the HoS thing.
The HoS, most of the hardcore serious offenders are banned, but those that still have some iffy tactics, and they don't have an icon, that's something I have a problem with.