Ongoing Questions and Thoughts about (J)RPGs
The Presentation of Dialog:
I've done a few different ways of displaying text and types of text boxes for Family Vacation, and what fits in that project is pretty set, but for an RPG I am wondering about different ways to position the text box. What makes for better reading, feels more personal or real, or simply conveys information in a better format? This would all be from a bird's eye perspective of course.
Looking over several games, there are a few standard options.
Full width: games that use this layout have the textbox appear, and it cover the entire width of the screen. They usually stretch to the top of the screen.
Partial Width: Games that use this method partially cover the screen, but still hint at what lies beyond the text box. The sizes of the boxes vary widely, from missing a column or two, to only taking up a small section of the screen.
Thought Bubble: This is not found in all that many games, that I could think of at least, but Super Bat Puncher uses it to great effect. The small screenshot from Roth's new RPG might also be using something similar.
I could go on and on and analyse these different types, but what are your thoughts? What am I missing, what works, what doesn't, etc.?
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Old Question(s):
Why Do People Play RPGs?:
Well, after over a decade of planning, I'm seriously contemplating making a full RPG my next project (the current project being? ). I'm not really a focus-group type person, but I am curious why people play this genre in general. It has always been my favorite, and I have my own reasons of course, but I'd like to hear yours . You never know, it just might help/influence the project, so let's hear your thoughts!
*These thoughts are stimulated as a play through Treasure of the Rudras, which is, outside of the boring battle system, an awesome RPG.
Graphics and Characterization:
Thinking back across the various RPGs that I've played, ranging from the NES through the PS1 in terms of consoles, and the Game Boy through DS for portables (sadly I've never really played a console game past the PS1, except here and there), I find that I connect differently with different games in regards to the characters. Some of this is due to the writing and characterization of course, but I'm finding on replay that a good deal of my connection to the characters in a game stems from visual cues. I am wondering both if anyone else feels this way, and also what helps to make for compelling characters on the visual plane. Are the 16x16 pixel characters of Final Fantasy easier or harder to connect with than say Lagrange Point's 16x32 characters? Do visual portraits within the text box help character representation, or do they hinder it? What is the role/value of being able to name characters, in terms of adding depth to them? There are lots of other springboards for thought, so share whatever. I guess what is driving these thoughts on my end is that I always found it easy to connect with characters in SNES RPGs, but not as much NES or Game Boy ones. It leaves me wondering if graphics are the culprit, or if many other factors are at work. As of course at the bottom of this is my concern about being able to create characters of depth in my own project, particularly since there is such a great divide between the NES's capabilities and what the SNES could do.
Comments
I'm not so interested in stories anymore. I have these neat things, called "books" (I think, don't quote me on that). They have much better stories most of the time, and it's not the same rehash over the top melodrama. Sure, the stories were amazing the first 10-15 RPGs in, but around 50-60 they get dull.
Now, because I'm a sucker for big worlds, building stats and skills, and putting on fancy doo-dads
Battle system is still most important to me (turn-based or action is fine with me), so without a satisfying battle system that makes you want to enter combat over and over, then it can be tough to finish unless the rest of the game is amazing. This includes experience and other technical stuff.
2nd is setting/art design. If the game has locations and lore that make just existing in that world fun, it goes a long way. Look at Xenoblade for imo the most creative setting in an rpg hands down.
Next are characters. Depth, backstory, and the characters changing over the course of the game (preferably without walls of text, showing not telling as often as possible). Cliches are bound to happen with how many characters exists in games, movies, tv, etc, so that doesn't matter as long as they're well-written.
Story of course needs to be compelling enough to hold everything else together. It's rare that an RPG's story is something crazy, never seen before and blows your mind *cough* Xenogears *cough*, so I never worry about it. Again, doing something new in this department is practically impossible. As long you want to see your characters pull through the situations that feel fresh as the game goes on and aren't overly dumb/melodramatic, we're good.
I won't rank music as that's just a given. If it's not awesome, then pick a different genre lol.
Strong extra features go a long way, like clean menus, traversing/interacting with the world, sound effects, equipment/items, etc.
Good luck with your project! I've been very slowly designing an rpg over the past year or so, knowing it will likely never been finished, just for fun. Making a game that you'd personally want to play is the most important thing.
Basically, I love RPGs because they usually involve some kind of epic quest adventure feel, there's a cliche but "epic" story in nature, usually a big bad you want to stop and I love the sense of having a team/group of friends follow you around towns and villages as you unlock clues talking to locals, upgrading armor and weapons and fighting enemies throughout the countryside. It's relaxing, and most RPGs (at least on the SNES I find) are absolutely 100% beatable. It's just a matter of sticking it through, being strong enough and having the right items.
It's just a satisfying genre IMO and something I've grown to really love over the past decade or so. My first ever RPG was Final Fantasy Mystic Quest. I actually liked it because it was exactly the "RPG starter kit" I was looking for, then I moved onto FFII (which really hooked and cemented me as a fan of the genre forever more).
Also, tactical combat is a plus. Combat should be an exercise of skill and problem so.ving, not "press A repeatedly"
Also in RPGs I like the story and the leveling up and such. Also new weapons and armor rule. The most important thing is that a new RPG hooks me initially. After that I'm happy residing in that world for awhile
I've got to admit that I don't know what the difference between a jrpg and a some other type of RPG is. Is this some sort of differentiation that's come up with more recent consoles?
I first heard the terms spelt out years ago in print mags, I think it was Dragon's role of computers, but could have been one of the third tier mags of the time.
One thing about RPGs that most other games doesnt really have, is length. While people talk about RPGs being repetitive due to combat and ick, fetch quests and back tracking, think about a game like super mario brothers. You play through level by level in order when you get it, and if you cant beat the game, you start over, and play on level 1 again. Same level, over and over. In RPGs, you're going to all sorts of new places, and fighting all sorts of monsters that look a lot like monsters you fought elsewhere, but at least they have new names and colors.
I've got to admit that I don't know what the difference between a jrpg and a some other type of RPG is. Is this some sort of differentiation that's come up with more recent consoles?
Also in RPGs I like the story and the leveling up and such. Also new weapons and armor rule. The most important thing is that a new RPG hooks me initially. After that I'm happy residing in that world for awhile
The differentiation I always make is:
RPG = Witcher 3, Fallout 4, skyrI'm
JRPG = final fantasy, Tales of anything, etc.
I never knew what an RPG was until college. We never had them growing up, until one day, my parents bought the Sega Smash Pack II for PC. It had some games that were pretty crummy, especially on a computer. But then I stumbled across a game called Shining Force. I thought it was going to be dumb like the other games, so when it asked for a name input, I wrote "Joey." Little did I know I'd be hooked. I even got my brother and sister so involved in it, they started their own files (which meant I didn't get to play as much--didn't think that one through...). I still didn't know it was an RPG; I just knew I loved the game. Then, in college, I finally played FFII for the SNES fully knowing that it was an RPG, and I LOVED it. I was hooked, and it's become my favorite genre by far.
So what made Shining Force and FFII so great?
1. Characters/Story: I cared about the people in the game. They had personalities. Hopes. Dreams. Fears. When stuff happened to them, I went through it too. Each action, every decision was weighty, because they could have real (in-game) consequences that could drastically affect the party or the people in their world. I wanted to know what happened next. Who would be the next character we would meet?
2. Gameplay: If a game is fun, I'm going to want to play it. And Shining Force and FFII had addictive, challenging gameplay that always had me thinking, planning, trying to find the best strategy. The multitude of options one had in a battle, along with all the equipment and items to wear and use. It just all came together so perfectly.
3. The World Itself: Shining Force and FFII had worlds that seemed so alive and cool to me. Every place had its own feel, and everyone who lived there felt like they were actually part of it, and not just a cardboard cutout made to sit there. I wanted to keep going to find new places.
4. Music: Great music can really solidify an RPG (or any game for that matter) in your mind. As I'm writing this, I can hear the Shining Force battle theme in my head. It's not the best track, but it's so memorable to me. It fit the scenario so well. So music for me is great when it's beautifully/epically done, but it doesn't have to be mind-blowing. It just has to fit the situation. Great music is an added bonus that can really add to the experience.
Examples of my points above.
1. Lufia and the Fortress of Doom: I really like this game. However, I don't think the gameplay is that great. In fact, with all the fetch quests, the game can be rather tedious. So why do I love it? The characters. They all had their own distinct personalities, and the writers had them play off each other wonderfully. Even when I would feel bogged down trying to find the pieces of alumina or something like that, I knew I could always rely on some witty/cheesy/funny dialogue between the characters. And the ending sequence? Beautiful.
2. Secret of Mana: This game is also really great, but for the opposite reason that Lufia and the Fortress of Doom is for me. I find the characters of Secret of Mana to be rather lacking, though I'm sure this can be blamed on its messed-up development cycle and localization problems. Nevertheless, I enjoyed the game because it's just dang fun to play. The combat system is really fun. I always looked forward to the next weapon level. I enjoyed the (very broken) magic system as well, though grinding that at higher levels did get tedious at the end. Even so, it's still a great game to toss in and just have fun playing.
3. Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga: You can't tell me that this world is alive. All the locations are unique and feel so rich, vibrant, and full of life. The NPCs there all have weight to them and feel like they belong. It was such a blast to see where the adventure led next.
4. Lufia II The Rise of the Sinistrals: I didn't want to use Lufia twice in my list, but they were the games that make this point the best in my mind. I loved Lufia and the Fortress of Doom's music. There aren't many songs, but the ones that there were just got stuck in my head. I love the town theme, the Fortress of Doom theme, and the credits music the best, but none of the tracks are bad, in my opinion, and the music really helped make certain areas/events more memorable. So when I played the sequel, I was excited to see what new music the now more experienced developers had put in the game. And I was pretty disappointed. Some familiar themes were back, but they sounded worse, especially the Fortress of Doom theme. I can call to mind numerous themes from the first game, but none from the second spring to my mind. I like Lufia and the Fortress of Doom better than Lufia II (an unpopular opinion, I know), and the music, while not a deciding factor in that, certainly didn't help the sequel. Music for me is a bonus, so the first game got a boost in its ranking, while Lufia II got no such boost, because the music wasn't bad/grating/out of place. It just wasn't good enough to stand out.
My favorite games obviously incorporate all of these elements. Chrono Trigger has wonderful characters, an incredible story, addictive and fun gameplay, amazing worlds, and fantastic music. FFIII and Tales of Phantasia are similar in that regard. I had a hard time stopping playing any of these three games (along with a few others) because they were the complete package. That's what makes them great. When they can be fun and suck you into their world, making it alive and real to you, while you work to figure out the best way to attack that enemy or develop your skills. They make you grow alongside the characters, and in doing so, immerse you so much further. The journey then also becomes yours. You don't just share it; you live it, and it's a wonderful trip, indeed.
As far as stories go, I am okay with most stories in JRPGs as long as you don't get into like 30 minute periods of text that really is just there to add hours to the gameplay. I've played some games where it seemed to take eons for the characters to be like "oh, we just need to go north" or something. If you've got pertinent information and/or lore to provide, that's fine, but if there is a lot of superfluous text I'm going to start slamming the A button really quickly.
The music is also very important, and I think it can even make or break a game. Does it need to be absolutely stellar and amazing? The answer is no, but it needs to not be annoying, and it's best to avoid really tinny sounds, and other annoying effects. The biggest thing is that the music is going to help tell the story (or at least it should) and set the mood. I think it is one of the most important factors in really pulling the player into the world of the game (which is even more important for the RPG genre).
I like being able to explore the world a little too. I don't need to be able to access every part of the world at the beginning of the game, but it is nice when you are able to maybe go somewhere that you aren't supposed to yet and see what kind of monsters are there. It could make a nice little grind spot to fight some tougher enemies, or that satisfying feeling of finding a town that you'll come to in the story eventually and you get to purchase the later game equipment.
To sum it up though, I think it really comes down to the battle system, the music, and the story/characters (and their art). One of my biggest complaints about the "HD" mobile final fantasies like Dimensions or VI is that the sprites for the characters look like absolute shit. They literally look like a child messing around in paint drew them. Considering that there aren't even really the limitations there once were, the developers should have been able to make the character sprites look a lot more detailed and more animated.
That is all. Carry on, folks!
I've got to admit that I don't know what the difference between a jrpg and a some other type of RPG is. Is this some sort of differentiation that's come up with more recent consoles?
Also in RPGs I like the story and the leveling up and such. Also new weapons and armor rule. The most important thing is that a new RPG hooks me initially. After that I'm happy residing in that world for awhile
The differentiation I always make is: RPG = Witcher 3, Fallout 4, skyrI'm JRPG = final fantasy, Tales of anything, etc.
You need to reach further back than that to get to the roots:
"Western" RPG (or CRPG for computer RPG, though a lot have ports to consoles) -- Wizardry, Might and Magic, or anything with a 1st person dungeon crawl mechanic, Ultima, AD&D (SSI Gold Box), it also includes stuff like what Spiderweb Software does (Exile/Avernum, Geneforge, etc)
JRPG (almost all of them are console games) -- FF, Dragon Warrior/Quest, etc
I'm not so interested in stories anymore. I have these neat things, called "books" (I think, don't quote me on that). They have much better stories most of the time, and it's not the same rehash over the top melodrama. Sure, the stories were amazing the first 10-15 RPGs in, but around 50-60 they get dull.
Agreed, which I why I prefer wrpgs over jrpgs.
What I like most:
Basically:
JRPG: Strict adherence to a typically linear plot, insistence on number-crunching and micro managing.
WRPG: Open world, non-linear, player-focused.
These are just my own experiences, so feel free to disagree or let me know if I'm not reading it right.
I used to love RPGs because I loved getting in the role of the character. It was (sort of) the closest thing to a visual novel with actual gameplay. I loved strategizing in battles and customizing my party. I loved watching the story play out. I also loved getting to know the characters and by the end of an RPG I often felt attached to those characters - way more than any characters from a non-RPG. Another huge draw was the soundtracks. I'm a huge fan of video game music and a great soundtrack could be the difference between a good game and a great game, in my eyes. RPGs, specifically ones from Squaresoft, always had great soundtracks. I love that even years after I've played the game, I can listen to the soundtrack of an RPG and just picture the scene that's happening in the game. Doesn't really happen with any other genre. I wish I had the time to get more involved in RPGs but I'm content with listening to the soundtracks of my favorite RPGs of yesteryear.
jRPGs have to become 'greater than the sum of their parts' to be truly great. Not all jRPGs pull that off very well.
I've played all the way through a lot of them at this point, and I've read a lot of high fantasy novels...
I think I'm starting to get what they're doing to make these games so magical, but in all honesty you can break down Great Works into minuscule parts all day and try to recreate something that worked so well and always come up short--There's something intangible that can't be caught through reverse engineering. It's like dividing up the Mona Lisa into little squares and trying to repaint it that way: Something is lost in translation.
Anyway... I'm going to periodically reference Final Fantasy 7 since most people have played that.
But just in case, - SPOILERS -.
Main Characters & Story
-All the characters should be relatable.
-All the characters should grow in some way, shaped by the story and interaction with the other characters.
-All the characters should have very good motivations to go on this quest.
-All the characters should serve multiple purposes to the plot. (If you have a character that only serves one purpose to the plot, that's a good sign you have one too many characters. Perhaps you should combine that character with another character.)
-The story should force at least a few characters to confront their past. (Think of how Barret reacts when you arrive in Old Corel, the mining town. His painful memories give that town lots of depth -- in a place that would otherwise just be another bland generic mining town.)
-On that note, the story should not be too melodramatic. Typically when a story feels melodramatic, that means that the writers overplayed their hand early and went for an emotional gut-punch before they earned it. You have to firmly connect the player to the characters first and build a rapport before making things sad and emotional, or it typically doesn't work. There are exceptions to this rule, but in general it's the truth.
-Avoid anime cliches whenever possible. Your characters should be more 'personality' than 'quirk'. Their past should inform their decisions. Not whether or not they are a 'Tsundere'. (It can be okay to have a few quirky characters, such as a character that only cares about finding and drinking beer all the time for comic relief, but even they should have some kind of past. I mean if a dude be drinking all the time, he's probably got deep-seated problems.)
-There should be some conflict and disagreement between characters.
-The characters should be thinking and reacting to what's going on in realistic ways. (One of my favorite things about Final Fantasy 7 is how the characters often stop, discuss the plot, and try to figure out what the heck is going on.) ((Similarly, the non-player characters in the world should also have dialogue that reflects what's going on in the world. If that situation changes, the dialogue should also change.))
-The characters may think they're doing the right thing and discover they can be villains themselves.
-The characters need to know how to relax and have fun.
Villains
-There should be a common goal (conflict), or villain in play most of the time.
-The villains should be memorable.
-We need to actually see them doing evil, or see the after-effects of the evil they've done (think burnt Nibelheim), or there's not much motivation to go after them. (Another good example is how Gongaga was destroyed, and Shin-Ra blamed the accident on AVALANCHE.)
-The main villain should have very good motivations to be doing what they are doing. If you can create a morally gray villain, even better.
-If you can balance a story with multiple villains, this is much better than just one villain. (Think Sephiroth, Jenova, Don Corneo, the Turks (Reno, Rude, Scarlet, etc.), and Shin-Ra (Hojo, Palmer, etc.). Even the Weapons and Meteor are villains.)
-No 11th hour villains. Don't have a completely random final villain that has no ties to the story show up for the final showdown.
World
-The world should be a mixture of the familiar and unfamiliar.
-You should try to have cultures in different areas of the world. Bonus points if you aren't just copying/pasting Arabic and Indian cultures.
-The scope of the world should be massive, to give the game more of an epic feel. (Even if the main characters aren't visiting everything, there should be hints that the world is much larger and more historic than anyone can remember. Most RPGs at least create lore by allowing the character to read the spine of 1 or 2 books on bookshelves. Having unexplained old overgrown ruins in an jungle path would be another great way to hint at a much more colorful lore. And allow the player to EXPLORE.)
-The world should have supernatural elements to it, and be overall mysterious.
-Bonus points if there is another world somehow connected to this one.
Music
-There can be goofy tracks, but the music really should try to capture the feel of the world and storyline you've created. (For instance the overall soundtrack of Lost Odyssey knows the pain of being immortal and being forced to watch everyone you've ever known or loved pass away, but also has a hopeful tone as if you are moving forward on a journey despite the hardships.)
-The battle music should be what you focus on the most. It's the thing that we'll be hearing most.
-The music should be emotionally charged.
-The world map music should be as epic as the world you created.
-This is probably the trickiest part to the whole deal, and that's why folks like Nobuo Uematsu and Yasunori Mitsuda are so respected.
Battle System
-Ideally you would develop some kind of unique twist on battle systems and stick with that decision, with minor tweaks and improvements throughout the sequels. The battle system helps define the RPG series you created. (For instance when you think of the 'Tales of' series, you probably think of real-time battles.) If you come up with a zany new battle system for a sequel, you should probably come up with a new game title, characters, and story to carry that battle system.
-Players should be able to greatly customize what they can do and bring to a battle. They should be free to come up with their own strategies.
-There are generally two parts to the challenge of turn-based RPGs -- 1. Preparation. You have to prepare your team for the upcoming battle or battles through equipment and customization. 2. Prediction. You have to predict what the enemy will do next and act accordingly. Sometimes ... 3. Improvisation - If you're not prepared for the battle or were thrown into it unexpectedly, there may still be a way to pull off a victory.
-Lately battle systems have felt the need to include more real-time interaction in their battles, such as twitch dodging, playing mini games, timed button presses, etc. While this is fine, it's totally not necessary. And honestly it can get a bit annoying. People who think turn-based RPGs require no skill tend to cling to these features in battle systems though, so you may have to strike a happy medium.
-All the characters should bring something unique to a fight. If all the characters can eventually become essentially the same, You're Doing It Wrong.
-The characters' personalities should be reflected in their battle skills.
-The key to keeping battles interesting seems to be 1. Set player expectations. 2. Break them in interesting ways.
-Oh, also 3. Have a fun and rewarding level up system that the player can interact with. and 4. Have great battle music.
This is getting wordy so I'm going to stop there.
If you can manage to follow even a few of these observations I've listed, I think you'll end up with a decent game!
Good luck with your project!
Originally posted by: KrakenSoup
I used to love RPGs because I loved getting in the role of the character. It was (sort of) the closest thing to a visual novel with actual gameplay.
Yup. Also, I'm one of THOSE types of gamers that renames the main character to reflect my name (STEVE) at any chance I get. It's fun imagining yourself in the main hero's shoes and living vicariously through that fantasy for 20-40 hours.
I agree that RPGs are like digital novels...well, the good RPGs, anyway.
Originally posted by: Steve
Originally posted by: KrakenSoup
I used to love RPGs because I loved getting in the role of the character. It was (sort of) the closest thing to a visual novel with actual gameplay.
Yup. Also, I'm one of THOSE types of gamers that renames the main character to reflect my name (STEVE) at any chance I get. It's fun imagining yourself in the main hero's shoes and living vicariously through that fantasy for 20-40 hours.
Lol I certainly did that the first time I played most RPGs back in the day. I don't rename characters anymore but the cast of FF7, FF9 and EarthBound all had me and my friends' names in it.
But to get to the point, some of them do the whole 'strategy lite' aspect very well. Not too complex but not too shallow, at least for the best ones.