Hardest NES Games and WHY
This has probably been discussed before, but I wanted to organize a series of responses in one thread.
What makes certain NES games so hard...and precisely WHY are they considered so hard?
For instance, we all know why Ninja Gaiden is considered a cult-classic "Nintendo hard" game: it's mostly due to the last section of having to restart at 6-1 after failing with the boss, no health refill etc.
What other games, that may be less-commonly discussed, are just as hard for similar reasons?
I'm sure the first several posts will be shit we all already know, but I'm holding out for games and reasons I haven't yet considered or played.
What makes certain NES games so hard...and precisely WHY are they considered so hard?
For instance, we all know why Ninja Gaiden is considered a cult-classic "Nintendo hard" game: it's mostly due to the last section of having to restart at 6-1 after failing with the boss, no health refill etc.
What other games, that may be less-commonly discussed, are just as hard for similar reasons?
I'm sure the first several posts will be shit we all already know, but I'm holding out for games and reasons I haven't yet considered or played.
Comments
I'm so happy Capcom designed Ghouls 'N Ghosts better. It's one of my favorite games.
Not that exhaustive memorization is easy, per se, but it's a fundamentally different skill from the player's perspective.
An example would be almost any shooter on the NES being much more about knowing enemy placement than reacting quickly to unexpected changes.
Quite a lot of beat-em-ups and platformers goad you into impatience, versus taking it slow, and in turn appearing more difficult than they need to be.
Basically, it comes down to a lot of mind-games that developers play against the players. (whether it music/tempo encouraging haste/sloppiness, or patterns that don't stand out as a pattern until you really look at them closely)
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I think there are a TON of games that are perceived to be hard because they trick you into thinking it's a "twitch"/"reaction" type game when in reality it is simply a matter of pattern recognition and reaction time is almost irrelevant by comparison to memorization.
Not that exhaustive memorization is easy, per se, but it's a fundamentally different skill from the player's perspective.
An example would be almost any shooter on the NES being much more about knowing enemy placement than reacting quickly to unexpected changes.
Quite a lot of beat-em-ups and platformers goad you into impatience, versus taking it slow, and in turn appearing more difficult than they need to be.
Basically, it comes down to a lot of mind-games that developers play against the players. (whether it music/tempo encouraging haste/sloppiness, or patterns that don't stand out as a pattern until you really look at them closely)
So true.
Best post I've read in a long while, thanks!
I think there are a TON of games that are perceived to be hard because they trick you into thinking it's a "twitch"/"reaction" type game when in reality it is simply a matter of pattern recognition and reaction time is almost irrelevant by comparison to memorization.
Not that exhaustive memorization is easy, per se, but it's a fundamentally different skill from the player's perspective.
An example would be almost any shooter on the NES being much more about knowing enemy placement than reacting quickly to unexpected changes.
Quite a lot of beat-em-ups and platformers goad you into impatience, versus taking it slow, and in turn appearing more difficult than they need to be.
Basically, it comes down to a lot of mind-games that developers play against the players. (whether it music/tempo encouraging haste/sloppiness, or patterns that don't stand out as a pattern until you really look at them closely)
^Yes, this is pure gold, sir. I was just thinking in this vein as I watched a Ninja Gaiden playthrough of the last section. I don't even think of the enemy sprites as enemies, but rather neutral patterns to be memorized. When you defang games like that, it's amazing how much calmer you are, and thus better you perform.
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
I think there are a TON of games that are perceived to be hard because they trick you into thinking it's a "twitch"/"reaction" type game when in reality it is simply a matter of pattern recognition and reaction time is almost irrelevant by comparison to memorization.
Not that exhaustive memorization is easy, per se, but it's a fundamentally different skill from the player's perspective.
An example would be almost any shooter on the NES being much more about knowing enemy placement than reacting quickly to unexpected changes.
Quite a lot of beat-em-ups and platformers goad you into impatience, versus taking it slow, and in turn appearing more difficult than they need to be.
Basically, it comes down to a lot of mind-games that developers play against the players. (whether it music/tempo encouraging haste/sloppiness, or patterns that don't stand out as a pattern until you really look at them closely)
Very true. Any time I play Contra or Super C, I find myself shooting at the area where the next enemies are going to appear before they actually show up on the screen.
I'm curious if there are any other particular parts of games that are as equally-infuriating as the last stretch/loop of Ninja Gaiden?
Ninja Gaiden III is the worst in terms of difficulty. The hit boxes are small. It takes a lot of precision to hit enemies with your sword unless you have the sword upgrade. The enemies don't re-spawn like in the first two games, but there are a lot of them, and they are fast. Plus they do more damage this time around. The higher difficulty and limited continues make it one of the hardest NES games.
Originally posted by: NostalgicMachine
The above is all awesome stuff, dudes.
I'm curious if there are any other particular parts of games that are as equally-infuriating as the last stretch/loop of Ninja Gaiden?
Every stage of Battletoads after Level 2.
I'm curious if there are any other particular parts of games that are as equally-infuriating as the last stretch/loop of Ninja Gaiden?
The Double Dragon section with the piston-blocks in infuriating because it either DOESN'T have a pattern, or the pattern is really well concealed in its complexity.
It can really ruin the enjoyment of the game for me, because compared to any other timed-platforming in that series, it is seemingly random whether you'll make it through unscathed or get pummeled by pistons to near-death.
1) Dragon Power has ten levels, divided into two sections: 1-6 and 7-10. After beating Level 6, you get a wish that allows you to up your max health from 150 to 250. This is pretty much a requirement for beating the rest of the game.
2) If you die in Levels 1-6, you continue from the stage you were on. However, if you die in Levels 7-10, you get knocked back to Level 7 and you lose your max health bonus permanently.
3) Now, in Dragon Power, your health steadily ticks down right from the start, like in Gauntlet (but not as fast).
4) Picking up the Meat or Cupcake items will restore health, but these are random drops and are never guaranteed to appear -- you can go a whole level without getting one.
a) Most/all enemies don't respawn, and the item locations don't respawn, so you can't farm anything.
b) In Level 7, there are Oxygen items that boost health, and they're in fixed places -- but in Level 7 your health also ticks down super-fast, so those items simply compensate for that.
5) Since your health ticks down steadily, it's entirely possible for the game to screw you over and just not give you any health items, at all. Even if you play perfectly, if you don't get Meat or Cupcake items, you'll eventually die...
6) ...which means you'll get knocked back to Level 7 with no health bonus, and the only real option is to replay the game from scratch.
tl;dr: You can play perfectly in Dragon Power and still die, because survival depends on random item drops that can't be farmed. And if you die in Levels 7-10, you might as well start over.
I'm curious if there are any other particular parts of games that are as equally-infuriating as the last stretch/loop of Ninja Gaiden?
The Double Dragon section with the piston-blocks in infuriating because it either DOESN'T have a pattern, or the pattern is really well concealed in its complexity.
It can really ruin the enjoyment of the game for me, because compared to any other timed-platforming in that series, it is seemingly random whether you'll make it through unscathed or get pummeled by pistons to near-death.
EXCELLENT! I totally forgot about this part, hence why I made this thread!
The above is all awesome stuff, dudes.
I'm curious if there are any other particular parts of games that are as equally-infuriating as the last stretch/loop of Ninja Gaiden?
Every stage of Battletoads after Level 2.
Oh come now, I've made it to Terra Tubes, lol I agree though, this qualifies!
Some of the toughest games on NES I've played (yes I know most have already been mentioned and are known to be difficult):
Contra
Battletoads
Kid Icarus
Metroid
Zelda II: Adventure of Link
Monster Party
That and they wanted kids to buy the games rather than beat them in a weekend rental.
Every stage of Battletoads after Level 2.
Oh come now, I've made it to Terra Tubes, lol I agree though, this qualifies!
I've beaten the game, but I was literally so frustrated/annoyed by the then that I literally took the cartridge out of my NES, drove straight to the local game shop and traded it in while vowing to never play it again. I've probably beaten over 200 NES games and I can't remember any of them that got on my nerves as much as Battletoads.
Every stage of Battletoads after Level 2.
Oh come now, I've made it to Terra Tubes, lol I agree though, this qualifies!
I've beaten the game, but I was literally so frustrated/annoyed by the then that I literally took the cartridge out of my NES, drove straight to the local game shop and traded it in while vowing to never play it again. I've probably beaten over 200 NES games and I can't remember any of them that got on my nerves as much as Battletoads.
Anyone that completes Battletoads has infinite bragging rights IMHO.
Hell, just beat that one game and you're a better gamer than someone who beats all the other hards titles MINUS Battletoads, lol.
Ninja Gaiden is hard because it is intentionally glitchy and you have to think like 'the machine' to beat it.
Mega Man 1 is hard because you need to die a lot to figure out how to not die a lot.
Contra is hard (with three lives) because your sprite is big and the bullets are small and numerous
Zelda 2 is hard because it scales its difficulty very early and many players don't level up before tackling death mountain where this scaling is most evident.
Contra is hard (with three lives) because your sprite is big and the bullets are small and numerous
True. Beyond the pattern recognition triumphing over quick reflexes, any bullet-hell game still maintains some measure of difficulty by requiring you to do your actions fast enough to suppress the "bullet-hell" to the greatest extent possible, and it can simply be overwhelming/demoralizing causing you to make mistakes or forget the pattern.
Vaguely like the relentlessness of high level Tetris, where the worse you do (either make a slight layout mistake, or play too high on the field) the game becomes exponentially more difficult, leading you to make even MORE mistakes.
But I want to note that even without the code, the game is generous with extra lives, and you'll keep racking them up as long as you don't die. The game doesn't stick you with just three lives.
I think there are a TON of games that are perceived to be hard because they trick you into thinking it's a "twitch"/"reaction" type game when in reality it is simply a matter of pattern recognition and reaction time is almost irrelevant by comparison to memorization.
This is why I stand by my belief that the hardest games are those with excessive random elements, like Holy Diver or Makaimura. (JP version of Ghosts N Goblins)
I think there are a TON of games that are perceived to be hard because they trick you into thinking it's a "twitch"/"reaction" type game when in reality it is simply a matter of pattern recognition and reaction time is almost irrelevant by comparison to memorization.
This is why I stand by my belief that the hardest games are those with excessive random elements, like Holy Diver or Makaimura. (JP version of Ghosts N Goblins)
It depends on whether you enjoy a potentially unfair gaming experience, or not.
I'm a sucker for the RNG-gamble of Roguelikes, but don't necessarily like that level of abusive randomness in all of my games.
(at least with roguelikes it tends to be strictly turn-based in a way that lets you try to treat it like a puzzle to solve, rather than an onslaught of random shit to deal with)
Now here come all the casuals to flame me. Casuals gonna casual.
Contra is hard (with three lives) because your sprite is big and the bullets are small and numerous
There are two elements to Contra that defuse its difficulty:
1) Become familiar with the stages/enemy patterns. Once you learn the flow of each stage and where enemies are placed and how they attack, you can start anticipating them rather than react to them and this will save you lives. By anticipating enemies, you can actually kill most of them before they even have a chance to shoot at you and this, in turn, makes it even easier to progress.
2) Contra is a "momentum game". This is what I call games that become easier as you become "powered up" and maintain a smooth "momentum" of game progress but become harder when you die and lose that momentum (Gradius/Life Force is a prime example of this). Once you get the spread-gun, and provided you know the stages well enough, Contra actually becomes almost stupidly easy. But if you die, you not only lose your power-ups, you also lose your "momentum", as you wait to respawn and the enemies take an opportunity to pile up. Depending on where you die, that momentum can be tough to get back.
Zelda 2 is hard because it scales its difficulty very early and many players don't level up before tackling death mountain where this scaling is most evident.
And, as I've recently discovered, I think the main reason that this is problem is because the game never makes it clear that leveling-up is expected of you in the early game. If you just played the game going from point to point as you would most other adventure games of the time, you simply aren't ready for the challenges after the first Palace. The game seems to expect you to grind out experience, even though it never advises you to do so (except through beating your head against the wall of difficulty).
Any NES game that requires you to die multiple times over to recognize enemy patterns etc. is a pain in the ass because at that point it is testing you mentally not even what you are capable of within the game that shit breaks the wall!
Honestly, I find the 3rd person stages in Contra give me more difficulty than anything because of the perspective and the scaling of the objects...sometimes it can be difficult to predict where exactly the images are on the screen whereas when you are playing the horizontal stages there is no scaling whatsoever and it is easy to determine where everything is.
I know some people who love them but, honestly, the "over-the-shoulder" stages are my least favorite in the game. They're not bad by any means but not the best part. Now, I do appreciate the variety that they offer but I find I like the "top-down" stages of Super C much more.
Honestly, I find the 3rd person stages in Contra give me more difficulty than anything because of the perspective and the scaling of the objects...sometimes it can be difficult to predict where exactly the images are on the screen whereas when you are playing the horizontal stages there is no scaling whatsoever and it is easy to determine where everything is.
I know some people who love them but, honestly, the "over-the-shoulder" stages are my least favorite in the game. They're not bad by any means but not the best part. Now, I do appreciate the variety that they offer but I find I like the "top-down" stages of Super C much more.
Agreed.... I am sure the creators felt this way about it to which is why the change happened.
Beer rocks.
Zelda 2 is hard because it scales its difficulty very early and many players don't level up before tackling death mountain where this scaling is most evident.
And, as I've recently discovered, I think the main reason that this is problem is because the game never makes it clear that leveling-up is expected of you in the early game. If you just played the game going from point to point as you would most other adventure games of the time, you simply aren't ready for the challenges after the first Palace. The game seems to expect you to grind out experience, even though it never advises you to do so (except through beating your head against the wall of difficulty).
Correct. The game has no in-game tips on leveling up at all (as far as I'm aware), and you're sort of just thrown in and expected to swim. It really is feast or famine with this game, as you'll hit walls until you just grind and level up. Then you decimate things for a bit, then repeat the process. I remember getting this game at FuncoLand back in like 1997 and never making it past the first Palace.
Any NES game that requires you to die multiple times over to recognize enemy patterns etc. is a pain in the ass because at that point it is testing you mentally not even what you are capable of within the game that shit breaks the wall!
This is another excellent point, and one I was thinking about when playing Zelda II last night. I'm noticing a pattern where I die/game over 2-3 times per Palace, then it's smooth sailing for a bit. There are definitely parts where you have no idea what's coming up, get bumped by a flying head into lava, etc. You'd NEVER know how to pass that on the first time, lol.
Other NES notables for this:
Adventure Island (die in the wrong place, no hammer for you)
Blaster Master (taking DAMAGE downgrades your gun)
Castlevania (keep that Holy Water!)
Life Force (not as bad as original, since death doesn't bump you backwards)