I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to, but I was thinking of Mike Tyson and Happy Camper, both of which have text that mentions entities which did not exist when the carts were made. It just takes away something.. but thats what you pay the big bucks for.. to get the real deal
I think you were involved with Mike Tyson but I honestly don't know nor am I attacking you or anything so please don't feel like you need to defend yourself.. I was just saying how it's "just not the same".. like a reproduction which uses non-period materials or something like that.
I think "cheap" is the wrong word and probably got lost in translation. You were probably going for "stingy".
Really? You can't use the word 'cheap' that way? Like.. "don't be so cheap.." "damn you, cheap bastard!" either? .....you can say that if your from England, right? Help me out please, I want to speak as correct as possible.
Sorry, a bit OT, but I guess the thread won't be polluted with this simple question.
I think the general consensus here is most people are very much in favor of getting these releases dumped. The only point of contention here seems to be the price which is bascially, take it or leave it. That is how he wants it and he is the owner. As far as the one sentence removed...don't play it if it bothers you that much. While my personal opinion differs than his on dumping it for free; when it's my proto, it's my call, but he is the owner - it's that simple. Let's just get Exerion dumped and maybe it will pave the way for another deal.
First this is not at all comparable to investing in a classic car. You can't make copies of your car for zero cost. It may be comparable to owning a valuable, one of a kind comic that nobody has ever read, but you'd scan it and distribute it for X dollars.
Stadium Events and similar carts are also irrelevant. Those are physical items to be sold. The programs on the chips goes along with them. The games were published and offered at retail, and right of first sale (or whatever the term) was granted when they were sold (even though Nintendo and Sony would like to do away with this).
Repros fall into the gray space. I assume if I buy a repro, I'm paying for the materials and engineering time the makers put into production of the physical cart, and the program is a freebie. I'm sure this is technically illegal, but US intellectual property laws are seriously retarded at this point in time. I'm ok with the making and selling of repro carts, but my feelings could change very quickly if it becomes about profiting from the program, rather than providing the hardware for a few bucks.
After thinking about it for a while, I concluded for myself that selling an unreleased rom dump isn't much different than making repros. The owner's investment is cash rather than engineering time, but the idea is the same: offer something to the community without it being at great personal expense.
And yes, this whole thing is apparently directed at DreamTR, because he's the one currently offering rom dumping for sale. But this discussion could apply to anyone in his situation. There's nothing precluding us from having a civil discussion about it.
The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the whole attitude:
"If I had all the time in the world, I would document everything, and price it MUCH higher if I did so for the time involved." and also the comment in the main proto for sale thread about only selling above market price.
I accept the economics of the situation and understand that nobody wants to take a big financial hit in order to contribute something to the community, but you *only* seem interested in the community if someone is going to pay you to be interested. I would personally be thrilled to contribute something as big as an unreleased game to the community. However I'm not spending thousands to obtain the source so it's doesn't factor much here. This reminds me a lot of when the Red Sea Crossing (2600) cart was found and the author was located. He said he might have some more carts stuck away, but wasn't interested in looking for them unless he could be sure he'd make money doing it. He came across like a dick, but he had no interest in the Atari community so what does it matter to him.
I'm pretty new to the board and this is basically all the exposure you've had to me. This may not be reflective of your actual involvement, but I don't have any way to know that. Maybe there are some more prominent members who feel the same way even with more exposure, and that would make sense as to the current feeling of the boards, but I won't presume to speak for anyone else.
Lincoln: I think you have this misconception about my "attitude" towards the whole situation. If I am already offering this game instead of leaving it unknown in my collection to never see the light of day, what else more do you want me to do? Basically YOUR attitude is that I should be extremely happy that the community is getting this and do everything possible to get it to them and spend time documenting and donating all my efforts towards this.
let me make this perfectly clear: there is no way do I "not care" about the community. If I did not care, I'd be reselling everything I ever had, but I'm also NOT GoING TO GIVE MY StuFF away if I paid dearly with time, effort, and funds to get the items.
I own/run a business. I had 3,500 DISK protos to sell. How the heck am I supposed to sit down and document things? That is the issue? My attitude of not documenting everything? I've stated on numerous occasions why I do this. With this much volume and running an arcade, there is no way I have the time to sit there and dig for differences/comparisons, and frankly, I don't understand why people keep bringing this up again.
Like I said before, If I went through the time and effort to get the game, I want at least what I paid out of it years ago. I think at the very least that allows me to keep the cart and everyone else gets to enjoy a new game. If you think otherwise, realize there are VERY few people out there with stockpiles of unreleased/undumped games, so I'm not sure alienating me is a good start in case someone else wants to come forth and release stuff.
If Nesworld releases a new game, I will gladly buy it. Everyone knows I support all homebrew and new releases ( I don't do limited editions because that's another topic altogether) but I will support the NES scene as much as I can.
Easiest thing really is to just get all these with boxes/manuals setup and released as a CIB. $750 does that as well, and no one seems to complain about that...
I think the bottom line here is, people want what they cant have and attach loads of reasons why they deserve it and the owner should comply.
The point is, person A has paid $XXX for the Prototype, therefore it is theirs and they can do whatever they want with it. By no means do they have to release it nor preserve it. Obviously if it gets lost for good, it will be a great shame, however thats their choice and youre forgetting something...
There are loads of prototypes out there that none of us are aware of, loads that have been trashed, some that private collectors have kept quiet about and others that have suffered data loss. The fact that people such as DreamTR are releasing these games at a price is a GOOD thing, we should be greatful that someone whats to preserve this history. Sure he wants to cover the costs originally paid, but wouldnt you? Would you work free for 3 months because everyone asked you to, or the expects you to? The next time you purchase a unreleased prototype, imagine your inbox(s) being flooded with abuse and unfair release requests, how would it feel?
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES (or whatever system it may be) and this game means alot to us. If the target isnt raised, then there obviously isnt enough demand for the game and it will remain locked away for now. Besides, you dont have to pay anything at all if you dont want to. Ill be honest, I havent donated anything as of yet to the community dumps but im still able to play them thanks to you guys.
You may also argue that $5000 for a roller disco style game or a shooter that makes you dizzy is a complete rip off. Well in my eyes I would agree, however... To someone else that might be their holy grail. My main interest in Prototypes is the unreleased Mr Nutz 2 for Genesis. Its the Amiga version of Mr Nutz and not the awful one that was released on home consoles. To others, $5000 for Mr Nutz 2 is absolutely stupid, but to me its tempting as I have such fond memories and such a big desire for that title. So to argue that price is ridculous is something you need to keep to yourself as to others, it might be an opportunity of a lifetime.
Where as I dont know Jason personally, id like to say ive been in forum-presence with him for a long time over various boards. Where he has come under alot of unfair abuse. Despite all this. Jason has contributed to the scene for years in my eyes and we should be pleased that this constant abuse hasnt sent him off in other directions.
DreamTR in this case shouldnt have any fingers pointed at him. Ill be open and honest here and say any fingers pointed his way are of pure jealousy. Its human nature to want what we cant have, thats what makes the prototypes so sparkly, so lets just be glad that some of this history will be playable after all.
I'm not going to get into this any more than to say that I would rather Jason sell these and recoup cost and/or profit from them rather than not release them at all. Those who don't like the method he's chosen to do this really don't have to participate or help fund it. It's that simple. The games are preserved, now, forever, and that's really all that matters in my book.
let dream do whatever he wants with his stuff. HE owns it. HE tracked it down / found it. HE paid for it. HE owns it. did i mention that it is HIS? if you pay $2k for a proto and you decide to dump it for free, good for you! we would be very appreciative of this gesture. however, if you paid $2k for a proto and decided to dump it if you were paid $2k, then whatever. that's fine too, because it would be YOUR game to do whatever you wanted with it.
dream isnt a rich man (no offense), so i see nothing wrong with him recouping his costs / making a profit on his possessions. i bought my se manual for $300 and sold it for $1500... am i an asshole for doing that? hell no. let the man do whatever he wants with his own possessions. if he wants to take them with him to the grave, that is his decision.
all I have to say on this topic is that Dream did all the work tracking these puppies down I couldn't even imagine how much work that has taken as well as how long it has taken to get the right connections. so I feel that he should be able to price these items however he wishes.
the only thing I am/was concerned about was the fact that thses games aren't spring chickens anymore and that they are comming up to the end of there life where bit rot *may start to occur on the chips. so I was just mainly hping that Dream would be making backups so incase the carts die the data is still alive. but now that I have seen dreams posts in this thread I feel much better about everything because he has stated that he has been doing such.
I wouldn't worry "too" much about bit rot, though. Most arcade games from the 70-80s-90 use EPROMS, and the majority of those are still running well, so these games wouldn't just "disappear". Of the 1,200 or so cart protos I have come across, only 2 have had bit rot, Where's Waldo, and Skate or Die 2, which had them when I got them. Yes, eventually it will happen, but even Atari protos are lasting longer at 30 years so far...
let dream do whatever he wants with his stuff. HE owns it. HE tracked it down / found it. HE paid for it. HE owns it. did i mention that it is HIS? if you pay $2k for a proto and you decide to dump it for free, good for you! we would be very appreciative of this gesture. however, if you paid $2k for a proto and decided to dump it if you were paid $2k, then whatever. that's fine too, because it would be YOUR game to do whatever you wanted with it.
dream isnt a rich man (no offense), so i see nothing wrong with him recouping his costs / making a profit on his possessions. i bought my se manual for $300 and sold it for $1500... am i an asshole for doing that? hell no. let the man do whatever he wants with his own possessions. if he wants to take them with him to the grave, that is his decision.
U hit the nail on the head there seth. AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES
This isn't directed specifically at you, Cauterize, but it hilights the sort of vibe I'm getting from a few of the more vocal advocates of these projects. Pay or you don't love the NES / the community. I'm curious if this is what is actually meant, if it's some sort of subconcious thing or if it's me perceiving things that aren't there.
I have earlier thought of doing a cart release of a one of a kind game I have, Defectors - a 4 player Berzerk like game by Equilibrium who made Peter Pan for the NES as well as a handful of GB games. But a cart release is just too much work for me to take on, also considering the fact that I'm located in Europe and shipping cost could kill off potential sales to American collectors. Therefore a one time payment would definately be a better option if my NES game had to be released to the public.
If anyone would want to have Defectors or Cuestick released then you know where to find me, but Defectors definately won't come cheap either (not 5k though) - and no one has asked sofar anyway :-)
As far as I know Defectors was Equilibrium's first attempt at a NES game, the game was never sold to a publisher as the programmer left before it was completed and I guess they didn't bother finding someone else to do it. I recently played through the entire game and there's 99 levels madness before reaching the "congratulations" screen.
If you have time I, as well as many others I'm sure, would love to see some gameplay footage on youtube or something. A new 4-player game sounds exciting to me and I'm sure many other swould be interested as well. As far as shipping killing you if you did make a CIB or w/e, I'm sure you could find an american partner who could act as your "warehouse" in the states, where a majority of the buyers would be. just a thought.
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES
This isn't directed specifically at you, Cauterize, but it hilights the sort of vibe I'm getting from a few of the more vocal advocates of these projects. Pay or you don't love the NES / the community. I'm curious if this is what is actually meant, if it's some sort of subconcious thing or if it's me perceiving things that aren't there.
OSG: I don't think he means it as such, there are just a lot of people that want something for free (to play ROM releases) that aren't willing to contribute to such projects....
Wow, this has been a very interesting read so far.
Roth: My thanks for starting the thread no one else wanted to. I think, though, that you have mistaken the need for moderation of thread crapping to mean some of us are trying to silence the protests here. I'm all for people debating these releases, just please don't get try to hinder those of us that are by doing it where we're trying to raise the money.
OSG: I've picked up on this vibe, as well, actually. I'm not sure it's intentional, though. I can't speak for the others, but I know that I'm a bit confused when people don't get excited about the prospect of a new game. Sure, there's a money aspect to it like there pretty much always is, but should we let that detract from our enjoyment of the process of getting it? I don't think so. There's also the fact that a lot of people are saying the reciprocal, that Dream doesn't love the community because he isn't willing to do this for free. I think it's interesting that very few people have actually posted here to back up Roth's arguments (well presented, and thanks for trying to be civil about it, dude). Doesn't that say something, too?
It doesnt seem to me that anyone expects the dump to be free. Most people just have an issue with the cost being so high. But jason has given reasons to back up his views against every argument someone has made. It has been said to death but i'll say it too now, its his crap, he decides ultimately and if people think that sucks, thats too bad for them. I myself find the asking price a bit steep, but thats not up for me to decide. I respect that Jason is giving the opportunity to get these games out there despite all the negativity.
sure the price is high looking through his list most of it if not all has been dumped or they are a released game with small changes. I don't blame him one bit for charging that high of a price
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES
This isn't directed specifically at you, Cauterize, but it hilights the sort of vibe I'm getting from a few of the more vocal advocates of these projects. Pay or you don't love the NES / the community. I'm curious if this is what is actually meant, if it's some sort of subconcious thing or if it's me perceiving things that aren't there.
OSG: I don't think he means it as such, there are just a lot of people that want something for free (to play ROM releases) that aren't willing to contribute to such projects....
Correct, I didnt mean it as such. It kinda connected up with my view on Holy Grails. If youre really eager to play a certain unreleased game, youve got the chance and can contribute. If not, then not a worry, dont contribute, but you can always try it out later and see what you think.
As said, I havent donated anything as of yet, I will once a game that interests me/one I will play surfaces.
Ah, that was a great point, OSG! I seem to remember reading posts like, "If you didn't donate, then you don't have the right to complain," or something along those lines. That really, really bums me out, because sometimes someone might not have the means to donate at the time, or not even be around the forum at the time. So then it seems like a community divide if said person didn't donate, but has an issue with the way something was done with the release. Then it turns into a "you're the bad guy" kind of thing. That in turn makes someone feel like, "Well what's the point in even saying anything? My input doesn't matter."
@nesguy: I was thinking the same thing about some people not saying anything now that the talk is available in this thread.Then again, maybe it's a case of those people not being around at this time : P
Oh, and yeah, I understand the need for moderation in the donations threads, but it just got old seeing people not able to express themselves, and then said person(s) wouldn't begin a thread for the discussion. I'm keen on what you mean for sure : )
I'm not going to get into this any more than to say that I would rather Jason sell these and recoup cost and/or profit from them rather than not release them at all. Those who don't like the method he's chosen to do this really don't have to participate or help fund it. It's that simple. The games are preserved, now, forever, and that's really all that matters in my book.
AMEN! Bottom line, help with the community events like this is you enjoy them, or don't if you think they are a rip off. Either way we all get the ROMs and they are saved for all time to not be lost. We all really win with stuff like this. ~~NGD
I'm a bit confused when people don't get excited about the prospect of a new game. Sure, there's a money aspect to it like there pretty much always is, but should we let that detract from our enjoyment of the process of getting it? I don't think so. There's also the fact that a lot of people are saying the reciprocal, that Dream doesn't love the community because he isn't willing to do this for free. I think it's interesting that very few people have actually posted here to back up Roth's arguments (well presented, and thanks for trying to be civil about it, dude). Doesn't that say something, too?
I don't get excited because I'm more into the lisenced releases. I'll buy the odd unlicenced game or homebrew or import or what have you. Playing a new game is enjoyable and all, but yeah. I guess I'm not hardcore or something. That said, that people want to pay to get abandoned software out there is. Well. It's something, anyway. Not my bag, but the effort is cool.
Saying that Dream (or anyone else) doesn't love the community because he isn't giving it free stuff is also bullshit. Insinuating that giving out unreleased roms for free (or paying for them) proves your devotion to the NES or the community (or lack thereof) is awfully selfish. One doesn't excuse the other eye em atche oh
Perhaps people don't want to post here agreeing with the naysayers so they keep face in front of the community? People want to fit in and be accepted, after all.
Also I'm pretty sure the arguments as presented by Rob aren't neccecarily his. Just things he's picked up on and presented all at once in stead of being smattered through the collection threads. Which people don't want ruined with such comments. This sort of discussion is healthy, even if one side is in the minority.
I don't think I'll be downloading any roms, but I'd probably buy the odd cart release, depending on the game. So I suppose my opinion about selling a dump is 'meh'... I guess my initial reaction was sort of shock. And the zeal with which some people combat the people who don't want to donate makes me feel like something weird is going on in a way I can't quite put my finger on. But for the most part everyone seems to be OK with it, so whatever, have fun guys. (edit: grammar)
Yep. Ultimately I don't see what's wrong with getting paid for providing a service. But naysayers are mistaken to what the REAL service we're paying for actually is.
I think some believe that his service is mailing the cartridge out to be dumped. That's not it at all. We're paying him for acquiring these (and that's a BIG job, he does a lot of digging), for preserving and protecting the physical and digital artifacts for years, and now, for connecting we, the casual collectors, with this history. Think about it, we get to just simply paypal someone $20, and we get an unreleased game. There's a LOT MORE that goes into that, than a simple upload. Years of consideration, all by Jason and only Jason.
How about this then for the naysayers, the ROM dump is only available to the people that donated for it. Everyone else piss on them. Yes it will eventually get leaked to the general public. We all know that even the ones complaining still download these ROMS even after bitching about the way it was released. If only the people that donate get the ROM then the ones that feel it should be released for free will have to wait till someone copies it and puts it out there.
I think this should be seriously considered for the next release. Give all the people that donate a password to a download that will only recognize their IP address so they cant pass it on.
Hopefully there is no pressure to contribute money or you suck, but there absolutely should be pressure to contribute something. If you don't like that people are profitting or just don't care about the game you can still support the community. Contribute an ezine article, or work on the database, or collect other info, or etc etc etc. There are so many free things that are just as appreciated as 20 bucks for a ROM. Even starting a well laid out discussion thread like this is helping. nesguy has it right, complaining in a donations thread is crapping but starting a new one to talk about it is good.
I'm probably going to release some released games for free soon as a "bonus" to the community since I can get these dumped and back to me fairly quickly. Similar to what drx does on his site, so it might be cool to see if you guys find any differences in "random NES protos off the shelf", LOL
How about this then for the naysayers, the ROM dump is only available to the people that donated for it. Everyone else piss on them. Yes it will eventually get leaked to the general public. We all know that even the ones complaining still download these ROMS even after bitching about the way it was released. If only the people that donate get the ROM then the ones that feel it should be released for free will have to wait till someone copies it and puts it out there.
I think this should be seriously considered for the next release. Give all the people that donate a password to a download that will only recognize their IP address so they cant pass it on.
Preserve history that's probably already backed up for the community which can't have it unless they're in the cool kids club and you can't disagree because if you're against it you should just look the other way and let everyone else have their fun.
Sweeten the deal by charging me a monthly fee once I download the ROM and I'm so in.
I think "cheap" is the wrong word and probably got lost in translation. You were probably going for "stingy".
Really? You can't use the word 'cheap' that way? Like.. "don't be so cheap.." "damn you, cheap bastard!" either? .....you can say that if your from England, right? Help me out please, I want to speak as correct as possible.
Sorry, a bit OT, but I guess the thread won't be polluted with this simple question.
You can say it that way...but calling someone "cheap" implies that they aren't willing to spend money. It's like the low class version of being "frugal".
Given the subject matter I assumed you were looking for a word that was synonymous with "greedy".
I don't know I think first that everyone should have to pay to view a downloads section and then after that you have to pay to download said game start off with this one that is attached
*this post is provided as a joke and no more thought I'd lighten the mood*
Comments
I think you were involved with Mike Tyson but I honestly don't know nor am I attacking you or anything so please don't feel like you need to defend yourself.. I was just saying how it's "just not the same".. like a reproduction which uses non-period materials or something like that.
I think "cheap" is the wrong word and probably got lost in translation. You were probably going for "stingy".
Sorry, a bit OT, but I guess the thread won't be polluted with this simple question.
First this is not at all comparable to investing in a classic car. You can't make copies of your car for zero cost. It may be comparable to owning a valuable, one of a kind comic that nobody has ever read, but you'd scan it and distribute it for X dollars.
Stadium Events and similar carts are also irrelevant. Those are physical items to be sold. The programs on the chips goes along with them. The games were published and offered at retail, and right of first sale (or whatever the term) was granted when they were sold (even though Nintendo and Sony would like to do away with this).
Repros fall into the gray space. I assume if I buy a repro, I'm paying for the materials and engineering time the makers put into production of the physical cart, and the program is a freebie. I'm sure this is technically illegal, but US intellectual property laws are seriously retarded at this point in time. I'm ok with the making and selling of repro carts, but my feelings could change very quickly if it becomes about profiting from the program, rather than providing the hardware for a few bucks.
After thinking about it for a while, I concluded for myself that selling an unreleased rom dump isn't much different than making repros. The owner's investment is cash rather than engineering time, but the idea is the same: offer something to the community without it being at great personal expense.
And yes, this whole thing is apparently directed at DreamTR, because he's the one currently offering rom dumping for sale. But this discussion could apply to anyone in his situation. There's nothing precluding us from having a civil discussion about it.
The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the whole attitude:
"If I had all the time in the world, I would document everything, and price it MUCH higher if I did so for the time involved." and also the comment in the main proto for sale thread about only selling above market price.
I accept the economics of the situation and understand that nobody wants to take a big financial hit in order to contribute something to the community, but you *only* seem interested in the community if someone is going to pay you to be interested. I would personally be thrilled to contribute something as big as an unreleased game to the community. However I'm not spending thousands to obtain the source so it's doesn't factor much here. This reminds me a lot of when the Red Sea Crossing (2600) cart was found and the author was located. He said he might have some more carts stuck away, but wasn't interested in looking for them unless he could be sure he'd make money doing it. He came across like a dick, but he had no interest in the Atari community so what does it matter to him.
I'm pretty new to the board and this is basically all the exposure you've had to me. This may not be reflective of your actual involvement, but I don't have any way to know that. Maybe there are some more prominent members who feel the same way even with more exposure, and that would make sense as to the current feeling of the boards, but I won't presume to speak for anyone else.
Also I'm totally jealous of your collection.
let me make this perfectly clear: there is no way do I "not care" about the community. If I did not care, I'd be reselling everything I ever had, but I'm also NOT GoING TO GIVE MY StuFF away if I paid dearly with time, effort, and funds to get the items.
I own/run a business. I had 3,500 DISK protos to sell. How the heck am I supposed to sit down and document things? That is the issue? My attitude of not documenting everything? I've stated on numerous occasions why I do this. With this much volume and running an arcade, there is no way I have the time to sit there and dig for differences/comparisons, and frankly, I don't understand why people keep bringing this up again.
Like I said before, If I went through the time and effort to get the game, I want at least what I paid out of it years ago. I think at the very least that allows me to keep the cart and everyone else gets to enjoy a new game. If you think otherwise, realize there are VERY few people out there with stockpiles of unreleased/undumped games, so I'm not sure alienating me is a good start in case someone else wants to come forth and release stuff.
If Nesworld releases a new game, I will gladly buy it. Everyone knows I support all homebrew and new releases ( I don't do limited editions because that's another topic altogether) but I will support the NES scene as much as I can.
Easiest thing really is to just get all these with boxes/manuals setup and released as a CIB. $750 does that as well, and no one seems to complain about that...
The point is, person A has paid $XXX for the Prototype, therefore it is theirs and they can do whatever they want with it. By no means do they have to release it nor preserve it. Obviously if it gets lost for good, it will be a great shame, however thats their choice and youre forgetting something...
There are loads of prototypes out there that none of us are aware of, loads that have been trashed, some that private collectors have kept quiet about and others that have suffered data loss.
The fact that people such as DreamTR are releasing these games at a price is a GOOD thing, we should be greatful that someone whats to preserve this history.
Sure he wants to cover the costs originally paid, but wouldnt you? Would you work free for 3 months because everyone asked you to, or the expects you to? The next time you purchase a unreleased prototype, imagine your inbox(s) being flooded with abuse and unfair release requests, how would it feel?
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES (or whatever system it may be) and this game means alot to us.
If the target isnt raised, then there obviously isnt enough demand for the game and it will remain locked away for now. Besides, you dont have to pay anything at all if you dont want to. Ill be honest, I havent donated anything as of yet to the community dumps but im still able to play them thanks to you guys.
You may also argue that $5000 for a roller disco style game or a shooter that makes you dizzy is a complete rip off. Well in my eyes I would agree, however... To someone else that might be their holy grail. My main interest in Prototypes is the unreleased Mr Nutz 2 for Genesis. Its the Amiga version of Mr Nutz and not the awful one that was released on home consoles. To others, $5000 for Mr Nutz 2 is absolutely stupid, but to me its tempting as I have such fond memories and such a big desire for that title.
So to argue that price is ridculous is something you need to keep to yourself as to others, it might be an opportunity of a lifetime.
Where as I dont know Jason personally, id like to say ive been in forum-presence with him for a long time over various boards. Where he has come under alot of unfair abuse. Despite all this. Jason has contributed to the scene for years in my eyes and we should be pleased that this constant abuse hasnt sent him off in other directions.
DreamTR in this case shouldnt have any fingers pointed at him. Ill be open and honest here and say any fingers pointed his way are of pure jealousy. Its human nature to want what we cant have, thats what makes the prototypes so sparkly, so lets just be glad that some of this history will be playable after all.
dream isnt a rich man (no offense), so i see nothing wrong with him recouping his costs / making a profit on his possessions. i bought my se manual for $300 and sold it for $1500... am i an asshole for doing that? hell no. let the man do whatever he wants with his own possessions. if he wants to take them with him to the grave, that is his decision.
the only thing I am/was concerned about was the fact that thses games aren't spring chickens anymore and that they are comming up to the end of there life where bit rot *may start to occur on the chips. so I was just mainly hping that Dream would be making backups so incase the carts die the data is still alive. but now that I have seen dreams posts in this thread I feel much better about everything because he has stated that he has been doing such.
let dream do whatever he wants with his stuff. HE owns it. HE tracked it down / found it. HE paid for it. HE owns it. did i mention that it is HIS? if you pay $2k for a proto and you decide to dump it for free, good for you! we would be very appreciative of this gesture. however, if you paid $2k for a proto and decided to dump it if you were paid $2k, then whatever. that's fine too, because it would be YOUR game to do whatever you wanted with it.
dream isnt a rich man (no offense), so i see nothing wrong with him recouping his costs / making a profit on his possessions. i bought my se manual for $300 and sold it for $1500... am i an asshole for doing that? hell no. let the man do whatever he wants with his own possessions. if he wants to take them with him to the grave, that is his decision.
U hit the nail on the head there seth. AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES
This isn't directed specifically at you, Cauterize, but it hilights the sort of vibe I'm getting from a few of the more vocal advocates of these projects. Pay or you don't love the NES / the community. I'm curious if this is what is actually meant, if it's some sort of subconcious thing or if it's me perceiving things that aren't there.
I have earlier thought of doing a cart release of a one of a kind game I have, Defectors - a 4 player Berzerk like game by Equilibrium who made Peter Pan for the NES as well as a handful of GB games. But a cart release is just too much work for me to take on, also considering the fact that I'm located in Europe and shipping cost could kill off potential sales to American collectors. Therefore a one time payment would definately be a better option if my NES game had to be released to the public.
If anyone would want to have Defectors or Cuestick released then you know where to find me, but Defectors definately won't come cheap either (not 5k though) - and no one has asked sofar anyway :-)
As far as I know Defectors was Equilibrium's first attempt at a NES game, the game was never sold to a publisher as the programmer left before it was completed and I guess they didn't bother finding someone else to do it. I recently played through the entire game and there's 99 levels madness before reaching the "congratulations" screen.
As far as shipping killing you if you did make a CIB or w/e, I'm sure you could find an american partner who could act as your "warehouse" in the states, where a majority of the buyers would be.
just a thought.
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES
This isn't directed specifically at you, Cauterize, but it hilights the sort of vibe I'm getting from a few of the more vocal advocates of these projects. Pay or you don't love the NES / the community. I'm curious if this is what is actually meant, if it's some sort of subconcious thing or if it's me perceiving things that aren't there.
OSG: I don't think he means it as such, there are just a lot of people that want something for free (to play ROM releases) that aren't willing to contribute to such projects....
Roth: My thanks for starting the thread no one else wanted to. I think, though, that you have mistaken the need for moderation of thread crapping to mean some of us are trying to silence the protests here. I'm all for people debating these releases, just please don't get try to hinder those of us that are by doing it where we're trying to raise the money.
OSG: I've picked up on this vibe, as well, actually. I'm not sure it's intentional, though. I can't speak for the others, but I know that I'm a bit confused when people don't get excited about the prospect of a new game. Sure, there's a money aspect to it like there pretty much always is, but should we let that detract from our enjoyment of the process of getting it? I don't think so. There's also the fact that a lot of people are saying the reciprocal, that Dream doesn't love the community because he isn't willing to do this for free. I think it's interesting that very few people have actually posted here to back up Roth's arguments (well presented, and thanks for trying to be civil about it, dude). Doesn't that say something, too?
It has been said to death but i'll say it too now, its his crap, he decides ultimately and if people think that sucks, thats too bad for them.
I myself find the asking price a bit steep, but thats not up for me to decide. I respect that Jason is giving the opportunity to get these games out there despite all the negativity.
Remember, he is not asking you personally for $XXXX, he is asking the community for that amount if they want it released. Its up to all of us to raise that cash and prove to one another that we love the NES
This isn't directed specifically at you, Cauterize, but it hilights the sort of vibe I'm getting from a few of the more vocal advocates of these projects. Pay or you don't love the NES / the community. I'm curious if this is what is actually meant, if it's some sort of subconcious thing or if it's me perceiving things that aren't there.
OSG: I don't think he means it as such, there are just a lot of people that want something for free (to play ROM releases) that aren't willing to contribute to such projects....
Correct, I didnt mean it as such. It kinda connected up with my view on Holy Grails. If youre really eager to play a certain unreleased game, youve got the chance and can contribute. If not, then not a worry, dont contribute, but you can always try it out later and see what you think.
As said, I havent donated anything as of yet, I will once a game that interests me/one I will play surfaces.
@nesguy:
I was thinking the same thing about some people not saying anything now that the talk is available in this thread.Then again, maybe it's a case of those people not being around at this time : P
Oh, and yeah, I understand the need for moderation in the donations threads, but it just got old seeing people not able to express themselves, and then said person(s) wouldn't begin a thread for the discussion. I'm keen on what you mean for sure : )
I'm not going to get into this any more than to say that I would rather Jason sell these and recoup cost and/or profit from them rather than not release them at all. Those who don't like the method he's chosen to do this really don't have to participate or help fund it. It's that simple. The games are preserved, now, forever, and that's really all that matters in my book.
AMEN! Bottom line, help with the community events like this is you enjoy them, or don't if you think they are a rip off. Either way we all get the ROMs and they are saved for all time to not be lost. We all really win with stuff like this.
~~NGD
I'm a bit confused when people don't get excited about the prospect of a new game. Sure, there's a money aspect to it like there pretty much always is, but should we let that detract from our enjoyment of the process of getting it? I don't think so. There's also the fact that a lot of people are saying the reciprocal, that Dream doesn't love the community because he isn't willing to do this for free. I think it's interesting that very few people have actually posted here
to back up Roth's arguments (well presented, and thanks for trying to
be civil about it, dude). Doesn't that say something, too?
I don't get excited because I'm more into the lisenced releases. I'll buy the odd unlicenced game or homebrew or import or what have you. Playing a new game is enjoyable and all, but yeah. I guess I'm not hardcore or something. That said, that people want to pay to get abandoned software out there is. Well. It's something, anyway. Not my bag, but the effort is cool.
Saying that Dream (or anyone else) doesn't love the community because he isn't giving it free stuff is also bullshit. Insinuating that giving out unreleased roms for free (or paying for them) proves your devotion to the NES or the community (or lack thereof) is awfully selfish. One doesn't excuse the other eye em atche oh
Perhaps people don't want to post here agreeing with the naysayers so they keep face in front of the community? People want to fit in and be accepted, after all.
Also I'm pretty sure the arguments as presented by Rob aren't neccecarily his. Just things he's picked up on and presented all at once in stead of being smattered through the collection threads. Which people don't want ruined with such comments. This sort of discussion is healthy, even if one side is in the minority.
I don't think I'll be downloading any roms, but I'd probably buy the
odd cart release, depending on the game. So I suppose my opinion about
selling a dump is 'meh'... I guess my initial reaction was sort of
shock. And the zeal with which some people combat the people who don't want to donate makes me feel like something weird is going on in a way I can't quite put my finger on. But for the most part everyone seems to be OK with it, so whatever, have fun guys.
(edit: grammar)
tl;dr: I have mixed feelings
I think some believe that his service is mailing the cartridge out to be dumped. That's not it at all. We're paying him for acquiring these (and that's a BIG job, he does a lot of digging), for preserving and protecting the physical and digital artifacts for years, and now, for connecting we, the casual collectors, with this history. Think about it, we get to just simply paypal someone $20, and we get an unreleased game. There's a LOT MORE that goes into that, than a simple upload. Years of consideration, all by Jason and only Jason.
I think this should be seriously considered for the next release. Give all the people that donate a password to a download that will only recognize their IP address so they cant pass it on.
How about this then for the naysayers, the ROM dump is only available to the people that donated for it. Everyone else piss on them. Yes it will eventually get leaked to the general public. We all know that even the ones complaining still download these ROMS even after bitching about the way it was released. If only the people that donate get the ROM then the ones that feel it should be released for free will have to wait till someone copies it and puts it out there.
I think this should be seriously considered for the next release. Give all the people that donate a password to a download that will only recognize their IP address so they cant pass it on.
Preserve history that's probably already backed up for the community which can't have it unless they're in the cool kids club and you can't disagree because if you're against it you should just look the other way and let everyone else have their fun.
Sweeten the deal by charging me a monthly fee once I download the ROM and I'm so in.
edit: you guys post fast
I think "cheap" is the wrong word and probably got lost in translation. You were probably going for "stingy".
Sorry, a bit OT, but I guess the thread won't be polluted with this simple question.
You can say it that way...but calling someone "cheap" implies that they aren't willing to spend money. It's like the low class version of being "frugal".
Given the subject matter I assumed you were looking for a word that was synonymous with "greedy".
I don't know I think first that everyone should have to pay to view a downloads section and then after that you have to pay to download said game start off with this one that is attached
*this post is provided as a joke and no more thought I'd lighten the mood*