It's up to the player whether such a trick would count for their personal satisfaction, but for this purpose I don't see that as an issue. The goal is to beat the game without cheating, within the mechanics provided by the game. Since a fast reset before progress is saved falls within the game's mechanics, I don't see it being an issue as far as the parameters of this goal.
In general I think in order to beat the game you should have to see the "good ending" or get the "end credits". You should also have to play on normal or higher difficulty, so games that default to easy mode would need to be set to normal. I agree that this is not a cut and dry issue and certainly open to debate.
Some initial thoughts...
Contra III - should be beaten on hard, since you get a bad ending/no credits on normal.
Super R-Type - Personally I'd say you have to clear both loops starting on normal. You don't get credits unless you beat the second loop. At least very least you should have to clear 1 loop on normal (game defaults to easy mode).
Strike Gunner STG - default settings are on easy (difficulty level 1 - you get an overpowered starting shot compared to difficulty 2+), should probably only allow difficulty level 2 or higher to count.
R-Type III - kind of on the fence on this one, there isn't really much of an ending to speak of for either loop but you do get a "the end" screen after the second loop.
Phalanx - Defaults to easy mode, should be set to normal.
Axelay - You get credits after first loop on normal, so that should be enough.
Super Nova - Must beat the game using the top route (final stage is Zone O) to get end credits.
Darius Twin - There are actually 5 different endings, including a "bad ending" (very obscure). I'd count all endings as beating the game since you fight the same final boss either way.
Blazeon - Beat 1 loop on normal. Game loops forever.
Gradius III - Beat 1 loop on normal. Game loops forever
I've always felt that if the ending is the same on Easy then that's enough for this purpose. If, however, it has to be beaten on Normal or even Hard to get the "true" ending, then that is required to beat the game for this purpose. Like I said, it doesn't matter if one will personally count the game or not, just so long as the parameters are met for the game.
EXAMPLE: Bandai Golf on the NES - There's no default score, so you basically just have to finish 18 holes to count it. However, I personally won't count it for my list until I get a score of par or below (my personal best is +2). You don't get any further reward for doing that, but to me it is something that should be done. However, since there is no difference ending-wise between a score of par or less and a score of +999, for the purposes of the thread the game can be counted as "beaten."
In general I think in order to beat the game you should have to see the "good ending" or get the "end credits". You should also have to play on normal or higher difficulty, so games that default to easy mode would need to be set to normal.
FWIW this is basically the standard we use on Sega-16. We don't require the best ending, just one that isn't bad and constitutes a proper ending if one is available. (I don't remember which ones, but some games just don't give you an ending if you don't play on Normal difficulty, if you simulate part of a sports season, etc.)
We know you're not. And I don't like playing on easy, either. But if the game considers itself beaten on easy, then that should be good enough. As long as you get the credits, and it's one of the handfull of games that doesn't let you play the whole thing on certain difficulties.
Well it's Brock's choice since he's going to be the run running the thread, but this year it was explicitly stated that only normal or higher modes would count.
It's up to the player whether such a trick would count for their personal satisfaction, but for this purpose I don't see that as an issue. The goal is to beat the game without cheating, within the mechanics provided by the game. Since a fast reset before progress is saved falls within the game's mechanics, I don't see it being an issue as far as the parameters of this goal.
Oddly enough I don't have a problem with this either. You wouldn't say someone failed in an RPG if they die on the last boss and get a bad ending (I believe chrono trigger does this?). I don't see the difference between that and these sports games with massively long seasons.
I'm kind of leaning towards bumping up games that require harder difficulties to see the credits, but leaving alone the games that have "better" endings if you perform random tasks (Pitfall, Kid Kleats being two examples)
So that would modify Contra III, Cool Spot, and...?
Phalanx: you don't get credit unless it's on normal.
Super R-Type: I don't beleive you get credits unless you clear both loops on normal. Might get them by clearing both on easy but I'm not sure, would have to verify that.
Oh man, I don't remember with Tetris & Dr. Mario, but I'm pretty sure I just used the NES guidelines when I took them both down. It went so quick though, I honestly don't remember what I ended up doing.
Ok, today's updates in. I'd like to eventually flesh everything out rather than just have "complete", so I'll probably bug people next year about what they did to beat their game
Also found another game that requires hard mode; its the only way to see the final level of Jurassic Park 2
The good ending thing needs to be used carefully. Like with Ogre Battle, I intentionally did a "bad" ending, by releasing an optional devil. But then you have BoF II, where the bad ending involves not doing a good portion of the game. And even on that one, you get the credits on the bad ending (I think anyways). And on the third hand, you have games like Metroid, where on the nes I ignore like 80% of the game.
So for me, the rule would be any difficulty that gives you an ending or credits, as long as it presents all levels and areas.
Since he's secret and you get the credits without him, I'd say not needed. He's more like an akuma style extra boss. But this one isn't as clear cut as some others.
I don't think it should have to be the good ending, bad endings should be okay, barring things like the aforementioned Breath of Fire II. If getting the bad ending means you skip a good chunk of the game, then that shouldn't count. If you have to play through the full game and still see the bad ending, I don't see that being a bad thing. It's like getting the worst ending in Super Metroid. You still have to beat the full game to get it, it's not difficulty-specific, and you see the credits, so I think the bad ending should still be okay in that case. Of course, this gets really complicated by games like S.O.S. with multiple endings, both good and bad, and all require finishing the game to see. I personally would consider any completion of S.O.S. to count, but you might think the worst endings for each character shouldn't count. Those are the kind of grey areas that need to be figured out.
As for Demon's Crest, from what I've seen about the hidden boss, it's only unlocked once the game is completed. To me, that's like killing the Demon Lord in Wizardry II...a fun extra to do after finishing the game, but not really required to beat the game for this purpose. While it should be required to 100% complete the game, we're not really going for that here. It's not "Can NA 100% Complete Every SNES Game" as far as I'm aware
I didn't even participate this year, but next year I plan to do at least a couple again. I'm a bit surprised 2 of my favorite games remain unbeaten. Uncharted Waters and F-Zero.
As far as I can remember, F-Zero gives the credits whichever league you beat.
I don't think it should have to be the good ending, bad endings should be okay, barring things like the aforementioned Breath of Fire II. If getting the bad ending means you skip a good chunk of the game, then that shouldn't count. If you have to play through the full game and still see the bad ending, I don't see that being a bad thing. It's like getting the worst ending in Super Metroid. You still have to beat the full game to get it, it's not difficulty-specific, and you see the credits, so I think the bad ending should still be okay in that case.
Well, Super Metroid's least-favorable ending still isn't "bad". I think what's undesirable -- and shouldn't be considered sufficient, IMHO -- is an ending where the game makes it clear that you've failed in some way, e.g.:
Hard to argue that you've really beaten a game if it tells you that.
I didn't even participate this year, but next year I plan to do at least a couple again. I'm a bit surprised 2 of my favorite games remain unbeaten. Uncharted Waters and F-Zero.
As far as I can remember, F-Zero gives the credits whichever league you beat.
I have F-Zero marked as completed this year. Which sounds right, otherwise I would of tried to knock it out
Brock, I'd tweak the Family Feud description -- it's not really "one game" since it's literally impossible to earn the $80K in a single game, and takes four games minimum to get there. I'd just say "Win (Earn $80,000+)".
Andre Agassi Tennis should be winning the 4-round Tournament mode (which is much nicer than having to win 4 consecutive tournaments in the Genesis version), but I haven't done it yet myself. I need to find a winning pattern in this game; it's tough.
I'll check on International Tennis Tour; probably, you have to play through the whole career mode, which is loooong. This time the Genesis version (Davis Cup Tennis) is the nicer one, since you can just win the Davis Cup.
Alright, I have updated the thread and I will weigh in on the topic, I guess.
Brock is correct in assuming that I only started the thread this year out of necessity. It was over halfway through January and there was no thread in sight so I got things started but it wasn't really my ambition to run this thing because it's a huge amount of work.
It's hard to be engaging and keep people occupied when the SNES thread has a considerable number less people than the NES thread. Literally those guys are at like 50% completion before January is done, and considering that there is a world of difference in terms of the complexity and length of SNES games, we will never get close if we don't get more help. We must have people filter over from the NES group once they finish completing their list. I think it's really awesome that Brock was able to complete 100 games for us this year, but also a little bit depressing that more than a third of overall games completed were done by one person.
I guess it could also speak volumes that nobody even started this thread until January 17th, where the NES and even the N64 thread went up on time.
Also to explain my own absence, I was in Japan for a while and am now preparing to move there so things got pretty busy for me in October.
Alright, I have updated the thread and I will weigh in on the topic, I guess.
Brock is correct in assuming that I only started the thread this year out of necessity. It was over halfway through January and there was no thread in sight so I got things started but it wasn't really my ambition to run this thing because it's a huge amount of work.
It's hard to be engaging and keep people occupied when the SNES thread has a considerable number less people than the NES thread. Literally those guys are at like 50% completion before January is done, and considering that there is a world of difference in terms of the complexity and length of SNES games, we will never get close if we don't get more help. We must have people filter over from the NES group once they finish completing their list. I think it's really awesome that Brock was able to complete 100 games for us this year, but also a little bit depressing that more than a third of overall games completed were done by one person.
I guess it could also speak volumes that nobody even started this thread until January 17th, where the NES and even the N64 thread went up on time.
Also to explain my own absence, I was in Japan for a while and am now preparing to move there so things got pretty busy for me in October.
You did a shit ton of work for this thread, and have my thanks.
I would normally add a smart ass comment here, but it's christmas. Unless you count THAT as a smart ass comment. Or that one. Awww fuck I'm stuck in a loop. Oooo that was definitely one, so I'm done.
As for participation, I'm hoping having the added scoring, and someone obsessive like myself bumping the threads repeatedly, will help us out next year. Or possibly prizes for the top three scorers
I've always been against prizes simply because everything is done on the honor system. There's nothing stopping someone from claiming they beat something just so they could get to the top spot to win a prize. In a "just for fun" setup, people are less likely to lie because there's no real benefit to them for doing it.
Andre Agassi Tennis should be winning the 4-round Tournament mode [...], but I haven't done it yet myself. I need to find a winning pattern in this game; it's tough.
Or, uh, maybe it's not so tough:
Beaten on Professional difficulty. As I suspected, you just have to beat the 4-round tournament to win. It was quite challenging until I figured out the right pattern: take up residence on the service line, and attack everything. The CPU always serves wide to the same spot, so when returning, stand in the doubles alley and tap B + diagonally into the court, and sometimes you'll hit a clean winner right up the line.
When serving, aim up the middle, not out wide (the CPU likes to hit screaming cross-court returns on wide serves). If you get into a long rally, just hit a lob and the CPU will frequently whiff on it.
The CPU also doesn't seem to understand the concept of returning to center after hitting the ball, so that helps. BTW Professional difficulty may actually be easier than Amateur, since Amateur selects your shots for you automatically and I'd rather have full tactical control, thanks.
I've always been against prizes simply because everything is done on the honor system. There's nothing stopping someone from claiming they beat something just so they could get to the top spot to win a prize. In a "just for fun" setup, people are less likely to lie because there's no real benefit to them for doing it.
That's true. I don't think it negatively impacted the N64 contest, but you never know
Comments
Some initial thoughts...
Contra III - should be beaten on hard, since you get a bad ending/no credits on normal.
Super R-Type - Personally I'd say you have to clear both loops starting on normal. You don't get credits unless you beat the second loop. At least very least you should have to clear 1 loop on normal (game defaults to easy mode).
Strike Gunner STG - default settings are on easy (difficulty level 1 - you get an overpowered starting shot compared to difficulty 2+), should probably only allow difficulty level 2 or higher to count.
R-Type III - kind of on the fence on this one, there isn't really much of an ending to speak of for either loop but you do get a "the end" screen after the second loop.
Phalanx - Defaults to easy mode, should be set to normal.
Axelay - You get credits after first loop on normal, so that should be enough.
Super Nova - Must beat the game using the top route (final stage is Zone O) to get end credits.
Darius Twin - There are actually 5 different endings, including a "bad ending" (very obscure). I'd count all endings as beating the game since you fight the same final boss either way.
Blazeon - Beat 1 loop on normal. Game loops forever.
Gradius III - Beat 1 loop on normal. Game loops forever
EXAMPLE: Bandai Golf on the NES - There's no default score, so you basically just have to finish 18 holes to count it. However, I personally won't count it for my list until I get a score of par or below (my personal best is +2). You don't get any further reward for doing that, but to me it is something that should be done. However, since there is no difference ending-wise between a score of par or less and a score of +999, for the purposes of the thread the game can be counted as "beaten."
In general I think in order to beat the game you should have to see the "good ending" or get the "end credits". You should also have to play on normal or higher difficulty, so games that default to easy mode would need to be set to normal.
FWIW this is basically the standard we use on Sega-16. We don't require the best ending, just one that isn't bad and constitutes a proper ending if one is available. (I don't remember which ones, but some games just don't give you an ending if you don't play on Normal difficulty, if you simulate part of a sports season, etc.)
Eh im really not a fan of allowing easy modes.
We know you're not. And I don't like playing on easy, either. But if the game considers itself beaten on easy, then that should be good enough. As long as you get the credits, and it's one of the handfull of games that doesn't let you play the whole thing on certain difficulties.
It's up to the player whether such a trick would count for their personal satisfaction, but for this purpose I don't see that as an issue. The goal is to beat the game without cheating, within the mechanics provided by the game. Since a fast reset before progress is saved falls within the game's mechanics, I don't see it being an issue as far as the parameters of this goal.
Oddly enough I don't have a problem with this either. You wouldn't say someone failed in an RPG if they die on the last boss and get a bad ending (I believe chrono trigger does this?). I don't see the difference between that and these sports games with massively long seasons.
So that would modify Contra III, Cool Spot, and...?
Phalanx: you don't get credit unless it's on normal.
Super R-Type: I don't beleive you get credits unless you clear both loops on normal. Might get them by clearing both on easy but I'm not sure, would have to verify that.
F-Zero - which league do you have to beat for the credits?
Kirby's Avalanche - what mode leads to credits?
Wario's Woods - ^
Yoshi's Cookie - ^
Tetris 2 - ^
Tetris/Dr. Mario - ^
Table up above is updated. If you see any games you can offer feedback on, please do so
Also found another game that requires hard mode; its the only way to see the final level of Jurassic Park 2
Pilotwings: complete Secret Command Level 2
WarpSpeed: complete Campaign mode (three scenarios)
Art of Fighting, Itchy & Scratchy, Tuff E Nuff all have variable difficulty but give you the same ending on all of them IIRC.
Today's updates are done
So for me, the rule would be any difficulty that gives you an ending or credits, as long as it presents all levels and areas.
Thoughts on the secret final, final boss of Demon's Crest?
As for Demon's Crest, from what I've seen about the hidden boss, it's only unlocked once the game is completed. To me, that's like killing the Demon Lord in Wizardry II...a fun extra to do after finishing the game, but not really required to beat the game for this purpose. While it should be required to 100% complete the game, we're not really going for that here. It's not "Can NA 100% Complete Every SNES Game" as far as I'm aware
As far as I can remember, F-Zero gives the credits whichever league you beat.
I don't think it should have to be the good ending, bad endings should be okay, barring things like the aforementioned Breath of Fire II. If getting the bad ending means you skip a good chunk of the game, then that shouldn't count. If you have to play through the full game and still see the bad ending, I don't see that being a bad thing. It's like getting the worst ending in Super Metroid. You still have to beat the full game to get it, it's not difficulty-specific, and you see the credits, so I think the bad ending should still be okay in that case.
Well, Super Metroid's least-favorable ending still isn't "bad". I think what's undesirable -- and shouldn't be considered sufficient, IMHO -- is an ending where the game makes it clear that you've failed in some way, e.g.:
Hard to argue that you've really beaten a game if it tells you that.
I didn't even participate this year, but next year I plan to do at least a couple again. I'm a bit surprised 2 of my favorite games remain unbeaten. Uncharted Waters and F-Zero.
As far as I can remember, F-Zero gives the credits whichever league you beat.
I have F-Zero marked as completed this year. Which sounds right, otherwise I would of tried to knock it out
Andre Agassi Tennis should be winning the 4-round Tournament mode (which is much nicer than having to win 4 consecutive tournaments in the Genesis version), but I haven't done it yet myself. I need to find a winning pattern in this game; it's tough.
I'll check on International Tennis Tour; probably, you have to play through the whole career mode, which is loooong. This time the Genesis version (Davis Cup Tennis) is the nicer one, since you can just win the Davis Cup.
Brock is correct in assuming that I only started the thread this year out of necessity. It was over halfway through January and there was no thread in sight so I got things started but it wasn't really my ambition to run this thing because it's a huge amount of work.
It's hard to be engaging and keep people occupied when the SNES thread has a considerable number less people than the NES thread. Literally those guys are at like 50% completion before January is done, and considering that there is a world of difference in terms of the complexity and length of SNES games, we will never get close if we don't get more help. We must have people filter over from the NES group once they finish completing their list. I think it's really awesome that Brock was able to complete 100 games for us this year, but also a little bit depressing that more than a third of overall games completed were done by one person.
I guess it could also speak volumes that nobody even started this thread until January 17th, where the NES and even the N64 thread went up on time.
Also to explain my own absence, I was in Japan for a while and am now preparing to move there so things got pretty busy for me in October.
Alright, I have updated the thread and I will weigh in on the topic, I guess.
Brock is correct in assuming that I only started the thread this year out of necessity. It was over halfway through January and there was no thread in sight so I got things started but it wasn't really my ambition to run this thing because it's a huge amount of work.
It's hard to be engaging and keep people occupied when the SNES thread has a considerable number less people than the NES thread. Literally those guys are at like 50% completion before January is done, and considering that there is a world of difference in terms of the complexity and length of SNES games, we will never get close if we don't get more help. We must have people filter over from the NES group once they finish completing their list. I think it's really awesome that Brock was able to complete 100 games for us this year, but also a little bit depressing that more than a third of overall games completed were done by one person.
I guess it could also speak volumes that nobody even started this thread until January 17th, where the NES and even the N64 thread went up on time.
Also to explain my own absence, I was in Japan for a while and am now preparing to move there so things got pretty busy for me in October.
You did a shit ton of work for this thread, and have my thanks.
I would normally add a smart ass comment here, but it's christmas. Unless you count THAT as a smart ass comment. Or that one. Awww fuck I'm stuck in a loop. Oooo that was definitely one, so I'm done.
As for participation, I'm hoping having the added scoring, and someone obsessive like myself bumping the threads repeatedly, will help us out next year. Or possibly prizes for the top three scorers
Andre Agassi Tennis should be winning the 4-round Tournament mode [...], but I haven't done it yet myself. I need to find a winning pattern in this game; it's tough.
Or, uh, maybe it's not so tough:
Beaten on Professional difficulty. As I suspected, you just have to beat the 4-round tournament to win. It was quite challenging until I figured out the right pattern: take up residence on the service line, and attack everything. The CPU always serves wide to the same spot, so when returning, stand in the doubles alley and tap B + diagonally into the court, and sometimes you'll hit a clean winner right up the line.
When serving, aim up the middle, not out wide (the CPU likes to hit screaming cross-court returns on wide serves). If you get into a long rally, just hit a lob and the CPU will frequently whiff on it.
The CPU also doesn't seem to understand the concept of returning to center after hitting the ball, so that helps. BTW Professional difficulty may actually be easier than Amateur, since Amateur selects your shots for you automatically and I'd rather have full tactical control, thanks.
I've always been against prizes simply because everything is done on the honor system. There's nothing stopping someone from claiming they beat something just so they could get to the top spot to win a prize. In a "just for fun" setup, people are less likely to lie because there's no real benefit to them for doing it.
That's true. I don't think it negatively impacted the N64 contest, but you never know