That really, really bums me out, because sometimes someone might not have the means to donate at the time, or not even be around the forum at the time. So then it seems like a community divide if said person didn't donate, but has an issue with the way something was done with the release. Then it turns into a "you're the bad guy" kind of thing. That in turn makes someone feel like, "Well what's the point in even saying anything? My input doesn't matter."
If somebody gives you something FOR FREE...what do you have to complain about?
It's generally considered rude to gripe about something that potentially benefits you, but to which you did nothing to contribute.
I don't see how these releases negatively impact ANY of the non-contributors...so I'm genuinely curious what they could possibly feel justified complaining about.
Preserve history that's probably already backed up for the community which can't have it unless they're in the cool kids club and you can't disagree because if you're against it you should just look the other way and let everyone else have their fun.
C'mon man, now you're being silly -- you're way cooler than me! Of course you can disagree, but what's the point in it with regard to these dumping projects? Anyone has the option to contribute (or not) and everyone gets the result. What's there to disagree with? Are you out money? No. Are you out time? No. Are you changed in any way by this? No. Then who cares? Talk about being a Johnny Downer!
When it comes to preserving history I think Dream already has it covered. In fact, I feel any collector who gives a crap about protos and the history will have the ROM dumped first thing. Wether or not they release it is another story. What worries me are the people out there who have them with no idea of what they have and worst of all may throw them away.
I personally will not donate to have a Rom released (notice I said released not dumped). Not because of any objection to the practice of charging for a realeas but, because I will not download them. If I want to play a game on my PC I will play one designed for a PC. However, if someone honstly could not afford to have a ROM backed up I would gladly chip in a couple of dollars just to make sure the programming would not be lost forever.
I agree that there are people who want something for nothing. It was mentioned above (too lazy to quote) to only let the people who donate get the download. That is a great idea. It would stop a lot of arguements.
On the other hand, I will gladly buy a homebrew or repro or any other game released CIB if I have the funds.(thanks Paul for getting me started ) I guess I am one who feels if they pay for something, want to be able to hold it in their hands.
As for what Dream is doing.....It's his stuff he can do what he want's with it.
As for the feeling of if you don't donate you don't care....I do get that feeling from the board on occasion. But, I just toss it up to me being a newbie.
If somebody gives you something FOR FREE...what do you have to complain about?
It's generally considered rude to gripe about something that potentially benefits you, but to which you did nothing to contribute.
I don't see how these releases negatively impact ANY of the non-contributors...so I'm genuinely curious what they could possibly feel justified complaining about.
Man, it's hard to describe what I think about with some of this. I think of things from the standpoint of a developer, and if I had made something. Here's _kinda_ what it feels like to me:
Roth on some website: "Hey guys, I have a ROM of Kevin's game Ultimate Frogger Champion. I will give it to the community for 500 bucks."
Granted, we all know Kev, so that would make it extra dirty haha But, it's basically selling some people's programs, and if they're abandonware or not, I really don't know. This is what kinda irks me, I think. Someone mentioned a few things like NWC and what-not earlier. I don't purchase those for the same reason; it irks me.
Now, it's kind of different here, because DreamTR puts effort into getting contacts, from what I understand. So that adds something to it. So I dunno. There are lots of little things that just seem so off about the way things are handled.
If somebody gives you something FOR FREE...what do you have to complain about?
It's generally considered rude to gripe about something that potentially benefits you, but to which you did nothing to contribute.
I don't see how these releases negatively impact ANY of the non-contributors...so I'm genuinely curious what they could possibly feel justified complaining about.
Man, it's hard to describe what I think about with some of this. I think of things from the standpoint of a developer, and if I had made something. Here's _kinda_ what it feels like to me:
Roth on some website: "Hey guys, I have a ROM of Kevin's game Ultimate Frogger Champion. I will give it to the community for 500 bucks."
Granted, we all know Kev, so that would make it extra dirty haha But, it's basically selling some people's programs, and if they're abandonware or not, I really don't know. This is what kinda irks me, I think. Someone mentioned a few things like NWC and what-not earlier. I don't purchase those for the same reason; it irks me.
Now, it's kind of different here, because DreamTR puts effort into getting contacts, from what I understand. So that adds something to it. So I dunno. There are lots of little things that just seem so off about the way things are handled.
So, I guess that is my answer to you, arch.
Roth, you can't even use that because as stated earlier what are we supposed to do? Try and get rights and wait years and no one sees the ROM anyway after dealing with whoever owns the rights to the company from 15-20 years ago?
By all means, what would have happened to all the Atari 2600 releases with characters like Bugs Bunny, Elevator Action, and Snow White and Dumbo if those games had to go through Disney or Warner Bros?
I don't think you've researched this clearly if you think my trying to get money leaves a bad taste because I'm DEFINITELY not even close to being the first. Where do you think all these CGE released games came from? Where's all the threads and hatred for that?
You have no idea how difficult it is to try and obtain rights and find out who owns x amount of stuff when they probably don't even have source code anymore.
I tried to get Grid Grabber from the developer and they wanted five figures just as a discussion point and they won't even let me see a cartridge of it (and this was 7-8 years ago) so I'm not really sure how you can consider this when it was clearly mentioned before that dealing with all the red tape for this stuff is silly.
YES, it is a gray area, but I'm sure downloading ROMS aren't exactly "legal" either even if you own so and so cart. Try going on Nintendo's legal site to see what they think about emulators and ROMS, but yes, this is someone else's work that who knows who the heck has rights to and might not even have CODE anymore.
Mike Ditka release? No one made a fuss. Bunnyboy releases? No one really mentions them like this.
If you have a personal issue with people profiting off someone else's work, then fine, that's something completely different, but keep in mind for these specific "dump" releases I am trying to do. I'm not profiting. This is what I have invested into the stuff, and yes, I want to keep the original afterward, but the original is not worth anything if I never sell it, so that logic is out. The whole point of this is to keep legal information off the carts (so no one comes after anyone on the sites that release ROMS HINT HINT), and to keep the original cartridge ORIGINAL and not copy crazed REPRO fest like I've seen with every other repro cart on the web.
I just think you have to look at the big picture on a lot of these things instead of just think something is awry when you're eventually going to be able to play the game free anyway if you do or do not donate. Just makes no sense, really what all this fuss is about.
"The whole point of this is to keep legal information off the carts (so no one comes after anyone on the sites that release ROMS HINT HINT), and to keep the original cartridge ORIGINAL and not copy crazed REPRO fest like I've seen with every other repro cart on the web"
I really don't think changing the text has much legal benefit, but as far as ensuring the original is easy to differentiate from a rom dump, it makes total sense.
There are ways you could edit the dumped rom which would make it unique while not affecting anything displayed on-screen, but that might not be what you want.
I just don't understand why someone could care so much about what someone else does with his stuff esp when it does not impact you in a negative way.
Perhaps the greed is not only with the guy who provides the ROM but also on the part of those who have a problem with it... jealously perhaps.
Really I think it is all for naught anyway. I can't see him raising 5k for a rollerskating game. More power to him if he can but I don't think it will happen I think it is just too much cash to raise in this manner.
dude, Jason.. you don't have to defend yourself. I think the people who are upset are going to be upset regardless. Plain and simple is that they are yours, you can do whatever you want with them. There are going to be whiners no matter what, and they'll take any side they can as long as it isn't your side (they'll play the 'its for the community' until you tell them to go spend their $5000 on an undumped unknown proto, then they'll play the profit motive until you explain you paid XXX and want XXX because after the dump the proto is only worth a few hundred...
I'd just skip on them, they'll keep firing back. Rather then somebody get pissed off and leave the site I think this thread should be locked and if the topic comes up again warnings should be given. Jason was kind enough to donate his time and investments and I hope nobody here pisses him off enough to close up shop.
dude, Jason.. you don't have to defend yourself. I think the people who are upset are going to be upset regardless. Plain and simple is that they are yours, you can do whatever you want with them. There are going to be whiners no matter what, and they'll take any side they can as long as it isn't your side (they'll play the 'its for the community' until you tell them to go spend their $5000 on an undumped unknown proto, then they'll play the profit motive until you explain you paid XXX and want XXX because after the dump the proto is only worth a few hundred...
I'd just skip on them, they'll keep firing back. Rather then somebody get pissed off and leave the site I think this thread should be locked and if the topic comes up again warnings should be given. Jason was kind enough to donate his time and investments and I hope nobody here pisses him off enough to close up shop.
looks like it might have been too late. other thread was locked
Who the hell cares. I really don't understand how this topic is even being debated. I haven't (or at least I don't think I have) posted in any of these community dump threads at all. Nor have I donated. I think its really cool that the community came together to purchase something that they wanted... but I hardly even play video games, so there's no point (well, unless you want to talk about community stuff) for me to donate. I haven't even played the Tyson dump yet, nor do I ever plan to.
But yeah, its his shit, let him do what he wants with it.
It could be 100x worse, and he could be a prototype collector who doesn't even post on forums, and then we would never know about these things. And he could also be somebody who posts on forums and doesn't even try to release these things. But, he IS posting on forums, and he IS letting people contribute to a release.
I fully understand why he is asking the prices that he is asking for. I don't see how that is up for debate in the slightest bit. It's his shit. If I want to ask $5000 for my copy of Stadium Events, I can ask $5000 for my copy of Stadium Events.
If anybody puts anything up for sale that is "overpriced" do we debate it? I hope not. I'm not even saying these things are "overpriced" either... because how do you overprice something that has no price-history at all?
i think it is a select few who have a problem with this and are posting negatively about it. why? i have no frickin clue. stop worrying about what other people want to do with their own possessions.
i think it is a select few who have a problem with this and are posting negatively about it. why? i have no frickin clue. stop worrying about what other people want to do with their own possessions.
You see that is the problem with the whole fn world.
No one worries about themselves. It is always Joe did this and Jane did that who cares. If it doesn't affect you who cares. If you don't want to donate don't no one cares. If you are jealous grow up.
There is a lot more things to worry about besides what some one does with a proto. Like that swine flu j/k
I think alot of people are insinuating, things, and putting words in other peoples mouths. Calling people jealous, or saying they just want freebies.. I dont think everyone commenting here is like that. It may be true for some. I dont think its true for most though. I dont collect protos, and I dont want to. I havent collected any of the roms that have been released. I may, when I have the money, pick up a Tyson cart. I never played Power Punch 2, but I loved Punch out .
I think though, at the prices some of these are going for, if the community is paying these prices, the community should get the cartridge. Dream you say you are not a reseller, and I agree with you. YOu are a collector. Thats why you have so many in your possesion. The thing is though, you are asking the community to pay full price for the cartridges, and we only get the rom image. A reseller just makes money, and loses product. YOu are not making money, but you are not losing product. Basically you have found a way for the community to pay for your collection. Your collection may go down in value, but it really doesnt matter what the value is, because your collecting, your not a reseller. You still have your collection, so your not losing anything as you would make it seem.
I agree, that a big problem in this world, is that people are always in other people business. But I also feel if someone is saying they are doing this for the community, then it is the communities business.
For people insinuating that I or anyone here is controlling someone else personal possesions.. That is not true and I dont want to control what Dream does with his stuff. Its his and he has every right to do as he pleases. I am just expressing my feelings, on what I think is fair, and how I see the situation unfolding.
There is a great chance I will donate for a future release, if the title suits my fancey, regardless of price. That doesnt mean though, that I think it will be fair. I will do it anyway, because I want that title released.
I think $5,000.00 means the cart is shipped to Dain. He makes an NA release of it. Takes photos and documents it. THen the cart goes on display at NA events. But again, this is not for me to say, this is for the community to decide if they want to pay, and Dream to decide what he wants to charge.
I think this discussion is great though, because it allows people to express what they think is fair. I also agree, that I think alot of members dont want to come forward and discuss this, because they will obviously be going against the big guys here, like Dain and NGD. I found it hard myself comming here and posting. Alot of the people I respect alot probly wont agree with or like my posts. I mostly find it hard, because I dont want to offend anyone. I dont want Dream to think I dont like him, or I think hes a bad person, or think hes doing something wrong. I dont think hes doing anything wrong.. I just dont agree with it 100%. I think for most people that arent commenting though, they feel like they will miss out on awesome deals, if another memeber didnt like something they said . Or one day they may want to buy a proto from Dream.
So in conclusion. I dont think the releases should be free, but I dont think the price is fair. I dont think anyone should crap on anyone or say negative things. We are all collectors and love NA, and gaming. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to go about doing them.
Dream thanks for releasing the bonus stuff. I know your not just in it for the cash, and I know you are a valued member of this community.
So in conclusion. I dont think the releases should be free, but I dont think the price is fair. I dont think anyone should crap on anyone or say negative things. We are all collectors and love NA, and gaming. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to go about doing them.
Fair ? There is no fair here. You want it at his terms you buy it but if you don't then you don't.
Fair ? There is no fair here. You want it at his terms you buy it but if you don't then you don't.
Just because I want something, and am willing to pay the price that is demanded, doesnt mean that I think its a fair price. My opinion still counts, and so do those of others. There is fair here, and this thread exists so we can express our opinion. This is not a vending machine with a quarter slot, this is a forum. Its purpose is discussion and opinion.. I dont know if you missed that somewhere.
Wow i spend the hole morning reading this topic with a good cup of coffee.
2 points.
point 1: I don't care about this game and im not going to pay if people raise the money ill say: good job guys!
Ill download the rom just like that mike tyson game and play it for free and keep my money.Spend that $20 or more on something else.
Point 2: Roth is a homebrewer what if he made a game better then war on wheels and then he would say: i want 5K for the rom. Would you guys raise money for that also?
We can all get a copy of the rom for Stadium Events right now off the internet. HAS THAT ROM FLOATING OUT THERE DECREASED THE VALUE OF THE CART? No! There are at least, what, 20 -30 known Stadium events carts while there is only one known proto of MTIPP. Even with the rom floating out there, DreamTR can still get a TON of money for MTIPP if he decided to sell it. The argument DreamTR and others is making doesn't make sense. In a way, he is double dipping.
We can all get a copy of the rom for Stadium Events right now off the internet. HAS THAT ROM FLOATING OUT THERE DECREASED THE VALUE OF THE CART? No! There are at least, what, 20 -30 known Stadium events carts while there is only one known proto of MTIPP. Even with the rom floating out there, DreamTR can still get a TON of money for MTIPP if he decided to sell it. The argument DreamTR and others is making doesn't make sense. In a way, he is double dipping.
How many protos of unreleased games have you spent over $1k for? Now how many DUMPED protos have you spent over $1k for?
I have 4 unreleased games myself, 2 of which I spent over $1k for (one of which I spent much more than that). There isn't a dumped proto on the planet that I would spent over $500 for, nor would most people.
History has shown that undumped, unreleased games consistently sell for several times more than dumped unreleased games. There really isn't an argument there, its just a fact.
We can all get a copy of the rom for Stadium Events right now off the internet. HAS THAT ROM FLOATING OUT THERE DECREASED THE VALUE OF THE CART? No! There are at least, what, 20 -30 known Stadium events carts while there is only one known proto of MTIPP. Even with the rom floating out there, DreamTR can still get a TON of money for MTIPP if he decided to sell it. The argument DreamTR and others is making doesn't make sense. In a way, he is double dipping.
Stadium events is a whole different ball game. Most people that are looking for a FULL licensed set want that game. Most people do not actively collect PROTOS. Those that do want what they want. If you want something truly one of a kind then you pay big $$$ for it. Once everyone has it and it is not one of a kind any more the value will drop!
dragonlunch: if there really is no supposed "value" on the proto market for things, how can you honestly say it's "overpriced?"
Let me give you an example. I would NOT have sold Tyson for $1500, nor would I sell Exerion II for $750. You haven't been around the proto market buying/selling as long as I have, so you can't say what it takes to acquire said protos.
8-9 years ago I was HATED because I would outbid people on protos, but it was usually groups that wanted to dump them, and I always had to pay handsomely. If groups of people were willing to pay at least $1500 for crappy unreleased protos on eBay, how can you think these are overpriced? There's no justification of that. Heck, eBay auctions alone for unreleased stuff I have seen close to $2000 many many years ago, and I'm pretty sure with the demand for repros and groups out there now, there would be some heavy hitters on some of these, but they're definitely not overpriced. If something is one-of-a-kind, I'm not sure how you can overprice it because once the data is dumped, no one wants the proto.
Ninfan: You're way off on this. You should read what mrmark said and look at examples. People keep using the "look at the NWC and look at Stadium Events/Panesians" arguments. That's apples to oranges. Compare protos to protos and you'll see the difference. Look how long it took me to sell Squashed after it was dumped, and it's not like people were lined up for it AND it went to a non NA member. FRACTION of what it was worth before. The same people aren't going to pay that much money for it.
Also, some of you were talking about homebrew and Roth was talking about taking away from people that created games...
Um, Ultimate "Frogger" Champion? Even if it's a brand new game, that's using Konami's character and I'm pretty sure it's not licensed. I'm glad someone is making new games, but you can't have the pot calling the kettle black when you overlook things like that.
Fair ? There is no fair here. You want it at his terms you buy it but if you don't then you don't.
Just because I want something, and am willing to pay the price that is demanded, doesnt mean that I think its a fair price. My opinion still counts, and so do those of others. There is fair here, and this thread exists so we can express our opinion. This is not a vending machine with a quarter slot, this is a forum. Its purpose is discussion and opinion.. I dont know if you missed that somewhere.
He has the only one.
Your use of fair just isn't accurate. If he had a deal with you where you bought a box of protos together and you two split them but after they arrive he changed the agreed upon rules of the split to get the ones he wanted , That is not fair. When the rules are stated up front and the rules are followed then you can't say something isn't fair. You can say the price is high or more than the game is worth. You don't even have to like it. but to say unfair imples something I haven't seen here.
If he takes the 5k and pulls a Hounder THAT would not be fair. If he pulls a bait an switch and dumpes another game instead THAT would not be fair. If he gets to 5k and then says 8k and doesn't give back the first 5k THAT would not be fair. If he asks for a TON of money and people pay it then sorry buddy but that is fair. Changing the rules along the way is not fair. It is his game and he gets to set the rules so play or don't play.
I think Dragonlunch may be confusing the terms "fair" and "reasonable".
If somebody makes a contract and sticks to it, it was a "fair" deal.
If somebody asks and arm-and-leg as payment...and you grudgingly pay it because there is no other way to get what you want...well that could be "fair" but it not necessarily "reasonable".
I don't think the price for Exerion 2 is unreasonable, but personally, I think the price for War on Wheels IS unreasonable. Some would disagree. As long as the agreements regarding releases and payments are upheld, it was all "fair"...but that doesn't always make it "reasonable".
Well, no worries about War on Wheels anymore, it's off the table... =P the only one we're doing now is Exerion II and I'm closing up shop on those after that sans the two "random" releases of games off the shelf that you guys can pilfer through to find differences...that should be fun
I think things are getting way too heated up. The name calling isn't necessary, and please don't type sentences in all caps.
I just used UFC as an example, which is really quite different, but kind of the same. I understand that it would be impossible to get in contact with all those involved that made the games; I in no way expect anyone to attempt doing that : P But it still makes me feel funny.
But yeah, it is up to the owner to do with what they want, no doubt. I just know that there are mixed feelings that people have, and haven't had the chance to express it properly, myself included. Like someone said, if it's about the community, then the community should at least be able to say what they think on the subject. I think I've pretty much said my part on what I think, and whether or not someone agrees with it, doesn't necessarily matter, but I feel like it needed to be brought up.
I don't _not_ want to see protos released, but just want it to be known that there are ill-feelings from some people. If those people choose not to come forward, then that's their own problem I suppose. Hell, I'm not even saying that things will change with the way they are released, but it's always good to know where different people stand, especially in a community that is as rapidly growing as NA.
Oh and he knocked one of the protos down $500 no one seems to remember that.
Anyhow here is what I see happening. A bunch of people are complaining about it, and Jason pulls it off the market, or gets an offer he can't refuse for an undumped cart. Everyone will be up in arms about the game not being released for the everyone to play blah blah blah
Again I have no issue with what he is doing
Originally posted by: DreamTR
Well, no worries about War on Wheels anymore, it's off the table... =P the only one we're doing now is Exerion II and I'm closing up shop on those after that sans the two "random" releases of games off the shelf that you guys can pilfer through to find differences...that should be fun
Called it
See where whining and cryings gets everyone. Now the game is off the table
Has anyone taken into consideration how MTIPP was presented? The thread was chock full of screenshots, and 1500 came pretty rapidly. The U-Force game went in one night without screens, but I think that's because it was 500.
That was two releases pretty much right in a row, and then two other games were put up, one for 5000, one for 750. Is it possible that people just don't have the cash right now? If that's the case, maybe the releases are just too close together. Is it possible that the screenshots help, if even on a subconscious level? I don't know, but I don't see how it hurts.
Comments
That really, really bums me out, because sometimes someone might not have the means to donate at the time, or not even be around the forum at the time. So then it seems like a community divide if said person didn't donate, but has an issue with the way something was done with the release. Then it turns into a "you're the bad guy" kind of thing. That in turn makes someone feel like, "Well what's the point in even saying anything? My input doesn't matter."
If somebody gives you something FOR FREE...what do you have to complain about?
It's generally considered rude to gripe about something that potentially benefits you, but to which you did nothing to contribute.
I don't see how these releases negatively impact ANY of the non-contributors...so I'm genuinely curious what they could possibly feel justified complaining about.
Preserve history that's probably already backed up for the community which can't have it unless they're in the cool kids club and you can't disagree because if you're against it you should just look the other way and let everyone else have their fun.
C'mon man, now you're being silly -- you're way cooler than me! Of course you can disagree, but what's the point in it with regard to these dumping projects? Anyone has the option to contribute (or not) and everyone gets the result. What's there to disagree with? Are you out money? No. Are you out time? No. Are you changed in any way by this? No. Then who cares? Talk about being a Johnny Downer!
Oh good grief where to begin
When it comes to preserving history I think Dream already has it covered. In fact, I feel any collector who gives a crap about protos and the history will have the ROM dumped first thing. Wether or not they release it is another story. What worries me are the people out there who have them with no idea of what they have and worst of all may throw them away.
I personally will not donate to have a Rom released (notice I said released not dumped). Not because of any objection to the practice of charging for a realeas but, because I will not download them. If I want to play a game on my PC I will play one designed for a PC. However, if someone honstly could not afford to have a ROM backed up I would gladly chip in a couple of dollars just to make sure the programming would not be lost forever.
I agree that there are people who want something for nothing. It was mentioned above (too lazy to quote) to only let the people who donate get the download. That is a great idea. It would stop a lot of arguements.
) I guess I am one who feels if they pay for something, want to be able to hold it in their hands.
On the other hand, I will gladly buy a homebrew or repro or any other game released CIB if I have the funds.(thanks Paul for getting me started
As for what Dream is doing.....It's his stuff he can do what he want's with it.
As for the feeling of if you don't donate you don't care....I do get that feeling from the board on occasion. But, I just toss it up to me being a newbie.
~finite incantum~
Kat
If somebody gives you something FOR FREE...what do you have to complain about?
It's generally considered rude to gripe about something that potentially benefits you, but to which you did nothing to contribute.
I don't see how these releases negatively impact ANY of the non-contributors...so I'm genuinely curious what they could possibly feel justified complaining about.
Man, it's hard to describe what I think about with some of this. I think of things from the standpoint of a developer, and if I had made something. Here's _kinda_ what it feels like to me:
Roth on some website:
"Hey guys, I have a ROM of Kevin's game Ultimate Frogger Champion. I will give it to the community for 500 bucks."
Granted, we all know Kev, so that would make it extra dirty haha But, it's basically selling some people's programs, and if they're abandonware or not, I really don't know. This is what kinda irks me, I think. Someone mentioned a few things like NWC and what-not earlier. I don't purchase those for the same reason; it irks me.
Now, it's kind of different here, because DreamTR puts effort into getting contacts, from what I understand. So that adds something to it. So I dunno. There are lots of little things that just seem so off about the way things are handled.
So, I guess that is my answer to you, arch.
If somebody gives you something FOR FREE...what do you have to complain about?
It's generally considered rude to gripe about something that potentially benefits you, but to which you did nothing to contribute.
I don't see how these releases negatively impact ANY of the non-contributors...so I'm genuinely curious what they could possibly feel justified complaining about.
Man, it's hard to describe what I think about with some of this. I think of things from the standpoint of a developer, and if I had made something. Here's _kinda_ what it feels like to me:
Roth on some website:
"Hey guys, I have a ROM of Kevin's game Ultimate Frogger Champion. I will give it to the community for 500 bucks."
Granted, we all know Kev, so that would make it extra dirty haha But, it's basically selling some people's programs, and if they're abandonware or not, I really don't know. This is what kinda irks me, I think. Someone mentioned a few things like NWC and what-not earlier. I don't purchase those for the same reason; it irks me.
Now, it's kind of different here, because DreamTR puts effort into getting contacts, from what I understand. So that adds something to it. So I dunno. There are lots of little things that just seem so off about the way things are handled.
So, I guess that is my answer to you, arch.
Roth, you can't even use that because as stated earlier what are we supposed to do? Try and get rights and wait years and no one sees the ROM anyway after dealing with whoever owns the rights to the company from 15-20 years ago?
By all means, what would have happened to all the Atari 2600 releases with characters like Bugs Bunny, Elevator Action, and Snow White and Dumbo if those games had to go through Disney or Warner Bros?
I don't think you've researched this clearly if you think my trying to get money leaves a bad taste because I'm DEFINITELY not even close to being the first. Where do you think all these CGE released games came from? Where's all the threads and hatred for that?
You have no idea how difficult it is to try and obtain rights and find out who owns x amount of stuff when they probably don't even have source code anymore.
I tried to get Grid Grabber from the developer and they wanted five figures just as a discussion point and they won't even let me see a cartridge of it (and this was 7-8 years ago) so I'm not really sure how you can consider this when it was clearly mentioned before that dealing with all the red tape for this stuff is silly.
YES, it is a gray area, but I'm sure downloading ROMS aren't exactly "legal" either even if you own so and so cart. Try going on Nintendo's legal site to see what they think about emulators and ROMS, but yes, this is someone else's work that who knows who the heck has rights to and might not even have CODE anymore.
Mike Ditka release? No one made a fuss. Bunnyboy releases? No one really mentions them like this.
If you have a personal issue with people profiting off someone else's work, then fine, that's something completely different, but keep in mind for these specific "dump" releases I am trying to do. I'm not profiting. This is what I have invested into the stuff, and yes, I want to keep the original afterward, but the original is not worth anything if I never sell it, so that logic is out. The whole point of this is to keep legal information off the carts (so no one comes after anyone on the sites that release ROMS HINT HINT), and to keep the original cartridge ORIGINAL and not copy crazed REPRO fest like I've seen with every other repro cart on the web.
I just think you have to look at the big picture on a lot of these things instead of just think something is awry when you're eventually going to be able to play the game free anyway if you do or do not donate. Just makes no sense, really what all this fuss is about.
I really don't think changing the text has much legal benefit, but as far as ensuring the original is easy to differentiate from a rom dump, it makes total sense.
There are ways you could edit the dumped rom which would make it unique while not affecting anything displayed on-screen, but that might not be what you want.
Perhaps the greed is not only with the guy who provides the ROM but also on the part of those who have a problem with it... jealously perhaps.
Really I think it is all for naught anyway. I can't see him raising 5k for a rollerskating game. More power to him if he can but I don't think it will happen I think it is just too much cash to raise in this manner.
I'd just skip on them, they'll keep firing back. Rather then somebody get pissed off and leave the site I think this thread should be locked and if the topic comes up again warnings should be given. Jason was kind enough to donate his time and investments and I hope nobody here pisses him off enough to close up shop.
dude, Jason.. you don't have to defend yourself. I think the people who are upset are going to be upset regardless. Plain and simple is that they are yours, you can do whatever you want with them. There are going to be whiners no matter what, and they'll take any side they can as long as it isn't your side (they'll play the 'its for the community' until you tell them to go spend their $5000 on an undumped unknown proto, then they'll play the profit motive until you explain you paid XXX and want XXX because after the dump the proto is only worth a few hundred...
I'd just skip on them, they'll keep firing back. Rather then somebody get pissed off and leave the site I think this thread should be locked and if the topic comes up again warnings should be given. Jason was kind enough to donate his time and investments and I hope nobody here pisses him off enough to close up shop.
looks like it might have been too late. other thread was locked
But yeah, its his shit, let him do what he wants with it.
It could be 100x worse, and he could be a prototype collector who doesn't even post on forums, and then we would never know about these things. And he could also be somebody who posts on forums and doesn't even try to release these things. But, he IS posting on forums, and he IS letting people contribute to a release.
I fully understand why he is asking the prices that he is asking for. I don't see how that is up for debate in the slightest bit. It's his shit. If I want to ask $5000 for my copy of Stadium Events, I can ask $5000 for my copy of Stadium Events.
If anybody puts anything up for sale that is "overpriced" do we debate it? I hope not. I'm not even saying these things are "overpriced" either... because how do you overprice something that has no price-history at all?
I think thats all I have to say.
i think it is a select few who have a problem with this and are posting negatively about it. why? i have no frickin clue. stop worrying about what other people want to do with their own possessions.
i am in the same boat as will.
i think it is a select few who have a problem with this and are posting negatively about it. why? i have no frickin clue. stop worrying about what other people want to do with their own possessions.
You see that is the problem with the whole fn world.
No one worries about themselves. It is always Joe did this and Jane did that who cares. If it doesn't affect you who cares. If you don't want to donate don't no one cares. If you are jealous grow up.
There is a lot more things to worry about besides what some one does with a proto. Like that swine flu
I think alot of people are insinuating, things, and putting words in other peoples mouths. Calling people jealous, or saying they just want freebies.. I dont think everyone commenting here is like that. It may be true for some. I dont think its true for most though. I dont collect protos, and I dont want to. I havent collected any of the roms that have been released. I may, when I have the money, pick up a Tyson cart. I never played Power Punch 2, but I loved Punch out
I think though, at the prices some of these are going for, if the community is paying these prices, the community should get the cartridge. Dream you say you are not a reseller, and I agree with you. YOu are a collector. Thats why you have so many in your possesion. The thing is though, you are asking the community to pay full price for the cartridges, and we only get the rom image. A reseller just makes money, and loses product. YOu are not making money, but you are not losing product. Basically you have found a way for the community to pay for your collection. Your collection may go down in value, but it really doesnt matter what the value is, because your collecting, your not a reseller. You still have your collection, so your not losing anything as you would make it seem.
I agree, that a big problem in this world, is that people are always in other people business. But I also feel if someone is saying they are doing this for the community, then it is the communities business.
For people insinuating that I or anyone here is controlling someone else personal possesions.. That is not true and I dont want to control what Dream does with his stuff. Its his and he has every right to do as he pleases. I am just expressing my feelings, on what I think is fair, and how I see the situation unfolding.
There is a great chance I will donate for a future release, if the title suits my fancey, regardless of price. That doesnt mean though, that I think it will be fair. I will do it anyway, because I want that title released.
I think $5,000.00 means the cart is shipped to Dain. He makes an NA release of it. Takes photos and documents it. THen the cart goes on display at NA events. But again, this is not for me to say, this is for the community to decide if they want to pay, and Dream to decide what he wants to charge.
I think this discussion is great though, because it allows people to express what they think is fair. I also agree, that I think alot of members dont want to come forward and discuss this, because they will obviously be going against the big guys here, like Dain and NGD. I found it hard myself comming here and posting. Alot of the people I respect alot probly wont agree with or like my posts. I mostly find it hard, because I dont want to offend anyone. I dont want Dream to think I dont like him, or I think hes a bad person, or think hes doing something wrong. I dont think hes doing anything wrong.. I just dont agree with it 100%. I think for most people that arent commenting though, they feel like they will miss out on awesome deals, if another memeber didnt like something they said
So in conclusion. I dont think the releases should be free, but I dont think the price is fair. I dont think anyone should crap on anyone or say negative things. We are all collectors and love NA, and gaming. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to go about doing them.
Dream thanks for releasing the bonus stuff. I know your not just in it for the cash, and I know you are a valued member of this community.
So in conclusion. I dont think the releases should be free, but I dont think the price is fair. I dont think anyone should crap on anyone or say negative things. We are all collectors and love NA, and gaming. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to go about doing them.
Fair ? There is no fair here. You want it at his terms you buy it but if you don't then you don't.
Fair ? There is no fair here. You want it at his terms you buy it but if you don't then you don't.
Just because I want something, and am willing to pay the price that is demanded, doesnt mean that I think its a fair price. My opinion still counts, and so do those of others. There is fair here, and this thread exists so we can express our opinion. This is not a vending machine with a quarter slot, this is a forum. Its purpose is discussion and opinion.. I dont know if you missed that somewhere.
now you're being silly
Dain I think you might get me.
If you think you don't get me, you have to keep it to yourself.
2 points.
point 1: I don't care about this game and im not going to pay if people raise the money ill say: good job guys!
Ill download the rom just like that mike tyson game and play it for free and keep my money.Spend that $20 or more on something else.
Point 2: Roth is a homebrewer what if he made a game better then war on wheels and then he would say: i want 5K for the rom. Would you guys raise money for that also?
We can all get a copy of the rom for Stadium Events right now off the internet. HAS THAT ROM FLOATING OUT THERE DECREASED THE VALUE OF THE CART? No! There are at least, what, 20 -30 known Stadium events carts while there is only one known proto of MTIPP. Even with the rom floating out there, DreamTR can still get a TON of money for MTIPP if he decided to sell it. The argument DreamTR and others is making doesn't make sense. In a way, he is double dipping.
How many protos of unreleased games have you spent over $1k for? Now how many DUMPED protos have you spent over $1k for?
I have 4 unreleased games myself, 2 of which I spent over $1k for (one of which I spent much more than that). There isn't a dumped proto on the planet that I would spent over $500 for, nor would most people.
History has shown that undumped, unreleased games consistently sell for several times more than dumped unreleased games. There really isn't an argument there, its just a fact.
We can all get a copy of the rom for Stadium Events right now off the internet. HAS THAT ROM FLOATING OUT THERE DECREASED THE VALUE OF THE CART? No! There are at least, what, 20 -30 known Stadium events carts while there is only one known proto of MTIPP. Even with the rom floating out there, DreamTR can still get a TON of money for MTIPP if he decided to sell it. The argument DreamTR and others is making doesn't make sense. In a way, he is double dipping.
Stadium events is a whole different ball game. Most people that are looking for a FULL licensed set want that game. Most people do not actively collect PROTOS. Those that do want what they want. If you want something truly one of a kind then you pay big $$$ for it. Once everyone has it and it is not one of a kind any more the value will drop!
now you're being silly
Dain I think you might get me.
Exactly. And the 'S' stands for 'Silly', but keep that to yourself!
Let me give you an example. I would NOT have sold Tyson for $1500, nor would I sell Exerion II for $750. You haven't been around the proto market buying/selling as long as I have, so you can't say what it takes to acquire said protos.
8-9 years ago I was HATED because I would outbid people on protos, but it was usually groups that wanted to dump them, and I always had to pay handsomely. If groups of people were willing to pay at least $1500 for crappy unreleased protos on eBay, how can you think these are overpriced? There's no justification of that. Heck, eBay auctions alone for unreleased stuff I have seen close to $2000 many many years ago, and I'm pretty sure with the demand for repros and groups out there now, there would be some heavy hitters on some of these, but they're definitely not overpriced. If something is one-of-a-kind, I'm not sure how you can overprice it because once the data is dumped, no one wants the proto.
Ninfan: You're way off on this. You should read what mrmark said and look at examples. People keep using the "look at the NWC and look at Stadium Events/Panesians" arguments. That's apples to oranges. Compare protos to protos and you'll see the difference. Look how long it took me to sell Squashed after it was dumped, and it's not like people were lined up for it AND it went to a non NA member. FRACTION of what it was worth before. The same people aren't going to pay that much money for it.
Also, some of you were talking about homebrew and Roth was talking about taking away from people that created games...
Um, Ultimate "Frogger" Champion? Even if it's a brand new game, that's using Konami's character and I'm pretty sure it's not licensed. I'm glad someone is making new games, but you can't have the pot calling the kettle black when you overlook things like that.
Fair ? There is no fair here. You want it at his terms you buy it but if you don't then you don't.
Just because I want something, and am willing to pay the price that is demanded, doesnt mean that I think its a fair price. My opinion still counts, and so do those of others. There is fair here, and this thread exists so we can express our opinion. This is not a vending machine with a quarter slot, this is a forum. Its purpose is discussion and opinion.. I dont know if you missed that somewhere.
He has the only one.
Your use of fair just isn't accurate. If he had a deal with you where you bought a box of protos together and you two split them but after they arrive he changed the agreed upon rules of the split to get the ones he wanted , That is not fair. When the rules are stated up front and the rules are followed then you can't say something isn't fair. You can say the price is high or more than the game is worth. You don't even have to like it. but to say unfair imples something I haven't seen here.
If he takes the 5k and pulls a Hounder THAT would not be fair. If he pulls a bait an switch and dumpes another game instead THAT would not be fair. If he gets to 5k and then says 8k and doesn't give back the first 5k THAT would not be fair. If he asks for a TON of money and people pay it then sorry buddy but that is fair. Changing the rules along the way is not fair. It is his game and he gets to set the rules so play or don't play.
If somebody makes a contract and sticks to it, it was a "fair" deal.
If somebody asks and arm-and-leg as payment...and you grudgingly pay it because there is no other way to get what you want...well that could be "fair" but it not necessarily "reasonable".
I don't think the price for Exerion 2 is unreasonable, but personally, I think the price for War on Wheels IS unreasonable. Some would disagree. As long as the agreements regarding releases and payments are upheld, it was all "fair"...but that doesn't always make it "reasonable".
I just used UFC as an example, which is really quite different, but kind of the same. I understand that it would be impossible to get in contact with all those involved that made the games; I in no way expect anyone to attempt doing that : P But it still makes me feel funny.
But yeah, it is up to the owner to do with what they want, no doubt. I just know that there are mixed feelings that people have, and haven't had the chance to express it properly, myself included. Like someone said, if it's about the community, then the community should at least be able to say what they think on the subject. I think I've pretty much said my part on what I think, and whether or not someone agrees with it, doesn't necessarily matter, but I feel like it needed to be brought up.
I don't _not_ want to see protos released, but just want it to be known that there are ill-feelings from some people. If those people choose not to come forward, then that's their own problem I suppose. Hell, I'm not even saying that things will change with the way they are released, but it's always good to know where different people stand, especially in a community that is as rapidly growing as NA.
Oh and he knocked one of the protos down $500 no one seems to remember that.
Anyhow here is what I see happening. A bunch of people are complaining about it, and Jason pulls it off the market, or gets an offer he can't refuse for an undumped cart. Everyone will be up in arms about the game not being released for the everyone to play blah blah blah
Again I have no issue with what he is doing
Well,
no worries about War on Wheels anymore, it's off the table... =P the
only one we're doing now is Exerion II and I'm closing up shop on those
after that sans the two "random" releases of games off the shelf that
you guys can pilfer through to find differences...that should be fun
Called it
See where whining and cryings gets everyone. Now the game is off the table
The title sounded interesting (like Death Race or something)...but Roller Derby? Sorry, that's a tough sell.
See where whining and cryings gets everyone.
Please don't post things like this : /
Has anyone taken into consideration how MTIPP was presented? The thread was chock full of screenshots, and 1500 came pretty rapidly. The U-Force game went in one night without screens, but I think that's because it was 500.
That was two releases pretty much right in a row, and then two other games were put up, one for 5000, one for 750. Is it possible that people just don't have the cash right now? If that's the case, maybe the releases are just too close together. Is it possible that the screenshots help, if even on a subconscious level? I don't know, but I don't see how it hurts.
Just a couple of things to think about.
Scott, I don't think $5k was going to show up for a War on Wheels release anyway, right now.
The title sounded interesting (like Death Race or something)...but Roller Derby? Sorry, that's a tough sell.
Agreed