maybe you can ask him what you can do to prevent that problem.
There is no preventing it, and it isn't a problem. 3x 256 pixels = 768 across which he says is narrow. 4x 256 pixels = 1024 across which he says is too wide. There are no integers between 3 and 4, so it can't be prevented. It is still subjective personal preference, and also ignores that the TV will have its own scaling options. I think 4x looks amazing so it isn't a problem for me!
I think the 1024x720 aspect setting would be just perfect. I even posted mockups a while back what I imagine it would look like in native 720p as well as on a 1920x1080p monitor: http://sta.sh/03asg71xf25 It will fill more of the screen compared to say 768, but not stretched to hell and back like with the full 1280. 3.75x3 (960x720) would create a "shimmering" effect just like the 3x4 aspects in the HDMI-NES video. That is close enough that using 4x3 pixels doesn't really stretch it much more.
I still can't fathom how Nintendo screwed up NES games on VC with non-square pixels on 3DS leading to scaling artifacts, or the bilinear "blur" filter they used for NES on Wii-U VC when SNES and GBA had crisp square pixels. When viewed on the Gamepad, SNES pixels are 2x2 and GBA are 3x3, mostly eliminating the 4.2.0 color compression artifacts.
Also Retron5 and Retro Freak just use a screen mask to emulate scanlines, but because they don't use integer scaling (they scale 256x224 to 720p instead of 256x240), the scalines don't even line up correctly with the pixels...
Nope! Don't have a Wii U and probably don't expect to ever get one. I can't figure out where to plug NES carts into the Wii so I can't do that comparison either...
Bryan, is this a product that any of us should be concerned will go out of production? I understand that you won't make them for infinity, but I missed out on the SMB2j repro and have yet to find one (of yours) that I can afford. I'd hate to end up pursuing the AVS in the same way.
OT, but does anybody have a working SMB2j ROM with the level select cheat? Any other repros I've ever seen don't have the level select code, and most repro don't have stages A-D accessible (no stars on title screen). Any attemps to dump it using my CopyNES have failed, likely due to custom mapper.
That game is too hard; the level select code is what made it golden and the only way I'll ever get to experience all of it...
As for the AVS, I'm getting it day one no matter what. I have a credit card and even if my bank has zero funds in it, I will find a way to afford this!
I also haven't been able to find that ROM. Everything you said is the reason I don't even bother with any of the other available repros for SMB2j.
I did manage to successfully get a graphics dump from the ROM. I posted a thread about the hack BunnyBoy used somewhere. Someone stamped the initials R:S on the castle flag which originally had a red star on it.
I have a CopyNES. Getting OT here, but if only someone could tell me what register to write too, I could possibly dump whatever bank that contains the level select code, the code which could then be extracted and copied into Loopy's MMC3 hacked version. Seriously, the B + A to select any world/sublevel is really all I would want in a potential repro.
Some guy on NESDev attempted and failed in that regard to recreate the ROM exactly. No level select:
Last time I mention this. I got a bootleg of SMB2j (the real gold medal game) from Aliexpress and it came with the level select code intact, just like the old RetroUSB edition, although it's not without it's flaws. Video forthcoming...
Considering the source is pixels, it won't matter a hill of beans. 720p and 1080p both upscale perfect integer ratios to 2160p (4k) so you have that to look forward to someday. But it's irrelavent. The NES pixels could be the size of a city block; and you're still just looking at rectangles.
If you could chose $200 for a 720p AVS or $400 for 1080p, which would you prefer? The competing Kevtris HDMI modded NES consoles start at $400 with 1080p, fully assembled.
Yeah, I know. I just figured people would wonder why it doesn't do 1080p. And as the picture shows, the bigger goldfish doesn't always result in a better bowl.
How is Famicom expansion audio handled? Is it emulated as it is with Kevtris' Hi-Def NES mod, or is it run through an analog to digital converter and then mixed with the AVS' internal audio?
There are a lot of of largish 32" 720p displays and they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they would be good for this and other 240p to 720p scalers.
So when these go up for sale (im hoping to snag 2), are you just going to put them up and let people know? or will there be a time line of "Hey, they're ready, orders will start X" kind of heads up?
So notice that there's more fractions that you can fit into the 1080p screen. For the horizontal, 720p moves in increments of 1/5, but for 1080p moves in increments of 2/15 which is a bit smaller. This gives the user more choices for screen scaling, which is why he found 1080p to scale a little better for him/herself.
The choice most people would be comfortable for horizontal scaling would be somewhere between 3/5 and 4/5, and while 720p only has those two choices, 1080p has 8/15, 2/3, and 4/5, so those may be easier on the eyes to some.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
How is Famicom expansion audio handled? Is it emulated as it is with Kevtris' Hi-Def NES mod, or is it run through an analog to digital converter and then mixed with the AVS' internal audio?
ADC! I don't like the idea of having to pick options for individual games, or not being able to support future unknown hardware. kevtris is also much better so emulating audio chips is easier for him I doubt I could do it in the space left in the FPGA.
Originally posted by: Great Hierophant
There are a lot of of largish 32" 720p displays and they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they would be good for this and other 240p to 720p scalers.
That would probably depend if the panel is actually 720p, or 768 instead.
Originally posted by: supersaiyajingodgoku
bunnyboy why does he say in the video the pixels are right in 1080p is he wrong?
It is opinion, it isn't right or wrong.
Originally posted by: dav3yb
So when these go up for sale (im hoping to snag 2), are you just going to put them up and let people know? or will there be a time line of "Hey, they're ready, orders will start X" kind of heads up?
There will probably be at least a few days notice posted here. I will get the notice that they arrived and then it will take a while to move everything into storage and things like shipping supplies lined up.
Originally posted by: supersaiyajingodgoku
bunnyboy how does this compare to the fceux color choice
Mine is better of course! Which version of fceux, what tech is your monitor, and what are the calibration settings?
Using what kind of panel? What kind of camera? What kind of video compression? Every step changes colors, which is why they need to be seen in the same place. If videos are good enough, I have also posted videos so you can already form your own opinion! I am always going to say mine is better
How is Famicom expansion audio handled? Is it emulated as it is with Kevtris' Hi-Def NES mod, or is it run through an analog to digital converter and then mixed with the AVS' internal audio?
ADC! I don't like the idea of having to pick options for individual games, or not being able to support future unknown hardware. kevtris is also much better so emulating audio chips is easier for him I doubt I could do it in the space left in the FPGA.
Originally posted by: Great Hierophant
There are a lot of of largish 32" 720p displays and they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they would be good for this and other 240p to 720p scalers.
That would probably depend if the panel is actually 720p, or 768 instead.
Thanks for the response.
The reason I mention a 720p native display is to avoid the increase in the lag that occurs when the panel upscales 720p graphics to 1080p. However, as you state, this benefit only holds for a true 720p (1280x720) display. If the display is really using 768 pixels (as in a native resolution of 1366x768), then the panel will upscale from 1280x720 to 1,366x768 and you will lose the primary benefits of the 720p display, namely no additional lag or ugly scaling artifacts.
Even if you do find a true 1280x720 display, things are not yet golden. You also have to consider the display's built in lag when displaying at its native resolution. 720p displays tend to be at the lower end of the market, so faster response panels and special features like "gaming mode", which keeps the lag to a minimum, tend not to make the cut.
Comments
supersaiyajingodgoku, don't sweat it.
maybe you can ask him what you can do to prevent that problem.
There is no preventing it, and it isn't a problem. 3x 256 pixels = 768 across which he says is narrow. 4x 256 pixels = 1024 across which he says is too wide. There are no integers between 3 and 4, so it can't be prevented. It is still subjective personal preference, and also ignores that the TV will have its own scaling options. I think 4x looks amazing so it isn't a problem for me!
I think the 1024x720 aspect setting would be just perfect. I even posted mockups a while back what I imagine it would look like in native 720p as well as on a 1920x1080p monitor: http://sta.sh/03asg71xf25 It will fill more of the screen compared to say 768, but not stretched to hell and back like with the full 1280. 3.75x3 (960x720) would create a "shimmering" effect just like the 3x4 aspects in the HDMI-NES video. That is close enough that using 4x3 pixels doesn't really stretch it much more.
I still can't fathom how Nintendo screwed up NES games on VC with non-square pixels on 3DS leading to scaling artifacts, or the bilinear "blur" filter they used for NES on Wii-U VC when SNES and GBA had crisp square pixels. When viewed on the Gamepad, SNES pixels are 2x2 and GBA are 3x3, mostly eliminating the 4.2.0 color compression artifacts.
Also Retron5 and Retro Freak just use a screen mask to emulate scanlines, but because they don't use integer scaling (they scale 256x224 to 720p instead of 256x240), the scalines don't even line up correctly with the pixels...
bunnyboy is this system only 720p?
I'm not him, but yes, it is.
bunnyboy can you put up a comparison with the wii u virtual console of nes games.
You do realize the Wii U Virtual Console has about the worst NES emulation around, right?
RCA Studio II - looks like two phones
Overall I would recommend the AVS, except for secretaries of course.
I can't figure out where to plug NES carts into the Wii so I can't do that comparison either...
Just go to Best Buy, find a Wii U demo display and smash Gyromite into it until there is an NES slot!
Bryan, is this a product that any of us should be concerned will go out of production? I understand that you won't make them for infinity, but I missed out on the SMB2j repro and have yet to find one (of yours) that I can afford. I'd hate to end up pursuing the AVS in the same way.
OT, but does anybody have a working SMB2j ROM with the level select cheat? Any other repros I've ever seen don't have the level select code, and most repro don't have stages A-D accessible (no stars on title screen). Any attemps to dump it using my CopyNES have failed, likely due to custom mapper.
That game is too hard; the level select code is what made it golden and the only way I'll ever get to experience all of it...
As for the AVS, I'm getting it day one no matter what. I have a credit card and even if my bank has zero funds in it, I will find a way to afford this!
I also haven't been able to find that ROM. Everything you said is the reason I don't even bother with any of the other available repros for SMB2j.
I did manage to successfully get a graphics dump from the ROM. I posted a thread about the hack BunnyBoy used somewhere. Someone stamped the initials R:S on the castle flag which originally had a red star on it.
http://nintendoage.com/forum/mess...
I have a CopyNES. Getting OT here, but if only someone could tell me what register to write too, I could possibly dump whatever bank that contains the level select code, the code which could then be extracted and copied into Loopy's MMC3 hacked version. Seriously, the B + A to select any world/sublevel is really all I would want in a potential repro.
Some guy on NESDev attempted and failed in that regard to recreate the ROM exactly. No level select:
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopi...
Last time I mention this. I got a bootleg of SMB2j (the real gold medal game) from Aliexpress and it came with the level select code intact, just like the old RetroUSB edition, although it's not without it's flaws. Video forthcoming...
Sorry for derailing...
bunnyboy is this system only 720p?
I'm not him, but yes, it is.
What's not to love about 720p? 1080p is a bastardized aspect ratio that wont work with integer scaling.
1080p is bigger. Bigger is better, right?
Considering the source is pixels, it won't matter a hill of beans. 720p and 1080p both upscale perfect integer ratios to 2160p (4k) so you have that to look forward to someday. But it's irrelavent. The NES pixels could be the size of a city block; and you're still just looking at rectangles.
If you could chose $200 for a 720p AVS or $400 for 1080p, which would you prefer? The competing Kevtris HDMI modded NES consoles start at $400 with 1080p, fully assembled.
There are a lot of of largish 32" 720p displays and they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they would be good for this and other 240p to 720p scalers.
Cifaldi was aiming for what the eye sees when looking at a CRT and came up with http://i.imgur.com/STXu5T2.png...
I was aiming for what I think looks best after playing lots of games and came up with http://i.imgur.com/0gwi7Zs.png...
Parts like aspect and scanlines are adjustable but that shows the colors with a minimal amount of compression from capture and image format.
bunnyboy how does this compare to the fceux color choice
bunnyboy why does he say in the video the pixels are right in 1080p is he wrong?
Go to 2:37.
If you fill up a 1080p screen entirely, you won't have integer scaling. Since the NES's horizonal resolution is 240, 1080/240 = 4.5
However, if you crop the top and bottom by 60 pixels each, you can do 4x -> 4x240 = 960. This will have correct scaling, but won't fill up the screen.
bunnyboy why does he say in the video the pixels are right in 1080p is he wrong?
Go to 2:37.
If you fill up a 1080p screen entirely, you won't have integer scaling. Since the NES's horizonal resolution is 240, 1080/240 = 4.5
However, if you crop the top and bottom by 60 pixels each, you can do 4x -> 4x240 = 960. This will have correct scaling, but won't fill up the screen.
you didn't watch where he said 5x on 1080p gives the right pixel scaling but on 720p it's not able to look right
you didn't watch where he said 5x on 1080p gives the right pixel scaling but on 720p it's not able to look right
That's according to him. Again, Bunnyboy said it best, it's subjective.
And why are you asking him for constant comparisons of the AVS to random emulators and such? I get that you're interested, but goddamn, dude.
you didn't watch where he said 5x on 1080p gives the right pixel scaling but on 720p it's not able to look right
Ah ok, you're talking about horizontal. That's because at 1920x1080, there's more pixels to work with vs 1280x720.
The default NES resolution is 256x240. So if we want to use integer scaling, we need to list all of the integers multiples that'll fit:
Horizontal: 256, 512, 768, 1024, 1280, 1536, 1792
Vertical: 240, 480, 720, 960
Now let's cut these into proportions.
720p
Horizontal (divided by 1280): 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, 1, 6/5, 7/5 (obviously the last two won't fit into 720p)
Verical (divided by 720): 1/3, 2/3, 1, 4/3 (again, last one won't fit in 720p)
1080p
Horizontal (divided by 1920): 2/15, 4/15, 2/5, 8/15, 2/3, 4/5, 14/15
Vertical (divided by 1080): 2/9, 4/9, 2/3, 8/9
So notice that there's more fractions that you can fit into the 1080p screen. For the horizontal, 720p moves in increments of 1/5, but for 1080p moves in increments of 2/15 which is a bit smaller. This gives the user more choices for screen scaling, which is why he found 1080p to scale a little better for him/herself.
The choice most people would be comfortable for horizontal scaling would be somewhere between 3/5 and 4/5, and while 720p only has those two choices, 1080p has 8/15, 2/3, and 4/5, so those may be easier on the eyes to some.
And don't forget this is totally subjective! With modern TV resolutions, we cannot get the exact same aspect ratio as on our old CRTs. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.
How is Famicom expansion audio handled? Is it emulated as it is with Kevtris' Hi-Def NES mod, or is it run through an analog to digital converter and then mixed with the AVS' internal audio?
ADC! I don't like the idea of having to pick options for individual games, or not being able to support future unknown hardware. kevtris is also much better so emulating audio chips is easier for him I doubt I could do it in the space left in the FPGA.
There are a lot of of largish 32" 720p displays and they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they would be good for this and other 240p to 720p scalers.
That would probably depend if the panel is actually 720p, or 768 instead.
bunnyboy why does he say in the video the pixels are right in 1080p is he wrong?
It is opinion, it isn't right or wrong.
So when these go up for sale (im hoping to snag 2), are you just going to put them up and let people know? or will there be a time line of "Hey, they're ready, orders will start X" kind of heads up?
There will probably be at least a few days notice posted here. I will get the notice that they arrived and then it will take a while to move everything into storage and things like shipping supplies lined up.
bunnyboy how does this compare to the fceux color choice
Mine is better of course! Which version of fceux, what tech is your monitor, and what are the calibration settings?
bunnyboy how does this compare to the fceux color choice
Mine is better of course! Which version of fceux, what tech is your monitor, and what are the calibration settings?
the one on the highdef nes.
I have never seen one so I can't compare.
there's videos online
I have never seen one so I can't compare.
there's videos online
You really need them side by side in person to make a comparison.
there's videos online
Using what kind of panel? What kind of camera? What kind of video compression? Every step changes colors, which is why they need to be seen in the same place. If videos are good enough, I have also posted videos so you can already form your own opinion! I am always going to say mine is better
How is Famicom expansion audio handled? Is it emulated as it is with Kevtris' Hi-Def NES mod, or is it run through an analog to digital converter and then mixed with the AVS' internal audio?
ADC! I don't like the idea of having to pick options for individual games, or not being able to support future unknown hardware. kevtris is also much better so emulating audio chips is easier for him I doubt I could do it in the space left in the FPGA.
There are a lot of of largish 32" 720p displays and they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they would be good for this and other 240p to 720p scalers.
That would probably depend if the panel is actually 720p, or 768 instead.
Thanks for the response.
The reason I mention a 720p native display is to avoid the increase in the lag that occurs when the panel upscales 720p graphics to 1080p. However, as you state, this benefit only holds for a true 720p (1280x720) display. If the display is really using 768 pixels (as in a native resolution of 1366x768), then the panel will upscale from 1280x720 to 1,366x768 and you will lose the primary benefits of the 720p display, namely no additional lag or ugly scaling artifacts.
Even if you do find a true 1280x720 display, things are not yet golden. You also have to consider the display's built in lag when displaying at its native resolution. 720p displays tend to be at the lower end of the market, so faster response panels and special features like "gaming mode", which keeps the lag to a minimum, tend not to make the cut.