this gun license stuff is people worrying about nothing. There are many more concerns. What we need is not more govt mandating people do shit.
I am all for gun safety. Thats what good parents do. Im not for govt mandating anything.
Heres a scenario. Say I have a license in your scenario to buy a gun. I have it locked up and everything and its there for my family safety. Now say someone breaks in when im not there and my in this case imaginary wife who doesnt have a "license" defends herself from an intruder threatening her life. So now she is a criminal for defending herself because she didnt have a license. Just so many loopholes and gray scenarios that would make this not work.
Are the classes free? who pays for them? How are the records kept?
Bottomline. Its just less freedom and more govt intervention. Also sounds like an agenda to get all the people with guns in a database record. That is something you dont want.
You might as well argue that the Constitution is a "privilege." All the gun fear out there is ridiculous-- I've owned a firearm for over 16 years and it hasn't jumped out and shot anyone. No classes required, figuring out how to store ammo in a separate location and how to use the safety isn't exactly rocket science.
My father learned to drive a pickup truck and a tractor by the age of 12. Presumably other people could too. That doesn't mean that nobody should be given a drivers test. If nothing else it weeds out those for whom these things apparently are rocket science.
The ability to defend oneself by force of arms is an inherent human right; if you want to get technical about it I'm sure that some kids on farms could handle rifles by age 6. Yet in my state there's already the reasonable restriction that no rifle or shotgun be sold to a person under the age of 18. You're saying that someone needs more than 18 years to figure out how to read a manual and not point the barrel at their head? Gimme me a break.
You are totally missing the point. This has nothing to do with taking guns away or denying people their right to own them at all, so i don't know why you are even bringing it up. All he said is that there should be stricter laws that require better classes and training for people, so they can learn the proper etiquette that is needed when you are owning something as lethal as a gun.
You can still shoot a gun under the age of 18 with supervision and partake in target shooting and even hunting, which is more than enough. What does a 12 year old belong owning their own gun for in your example? Self defense? Leave it to your parents who can easily legally own a gun for that and protect you and their household. When you hit 18 and become an adult and move out, then you can also own one and protect your own family, after you take the necessary classes/tests to prove you are worthy of owning one.
Not everyone has common sense. People do dumb shit with guns all the time and get themselves killed or someone else. A test just weeds out the idiots who are to dangerous to be trusted with a weapon. Just like his comparison to driving. If you take a drivers test and run red lights and crash into a utility pole, i think it is safe to say you are not ready to have a license and be out on the road with others. Sounds pretty fair to me. Prove you are not an idiot, and you can have a gun.
If you want no rules, go live off the grid somewhere.
Thank you. Beyond the street gangs and criminal types, there's still a lot of otherwise law obiding dumbasses out there (ie someone might "stare down the barrel of the gun to see if it's loaded" level of ignorant), as well as unstable folks with mental/emotional disorders, and then those who believe in their way or the highway and shoot first, ask questions later. I'm not even talking "stand your ground" laws, but use of deadly force should be a last resort, not shoot to kill at the first sign of conflict.
Originally posted by: Kickmeister
Originally posted by: quest4nes
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
You're acting as if there is some species called Criminal that spawn from vats at the Criminal Factory and can only do and think of Criminal Things. The guy who holds up a liquor store may in fact be a dickweed who can't be asked to find work, or could be an alcoholic who's 10 bottles past "just one more", or could be broke for [inset reason here]. This is not excusing any of this behavior, but the whole "they'll just get up to no good some other way" is a super weak excuse and makes about as much sense as saying we should repeal all laws because there are people who won't follow them regardless. It's not like there's a group of people programmed to kill, maim, loot and destroy from birth and beep boop boop beep they must execute program.
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
You're acting as if there is some species called Criminal that spawn from vats at the Criminal Factory and can only do and think of Criminal Things. The guy who holds up a liquor store may in fact be a dickweed who can't be asked to find work, or could be an alcoholic who's 10 bottles past "just one more", or could be broke for [inset reason here]. This is not excusing any of this behavior, but the whole "they'll just get up to no good some other way" is a super weak excuse and makes about as much sense as saying we should repeal all laws because there are people who won't follow them regardless. It's not like there's a group of people programmed to kill, maim, loot and destroy from birth and beep boop boop beep they must execute program.
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
+1.
You are acting like by making a govt license is going to stop gun violence. lmao. slippery slope
Guns violence is on its way down. Hysteria about freaking nothing. Leftist Media agenda
What you all are describing sound like household accidents. It comes along with it. Part of life. It comes with being in a free country. You arent going to stop that with some safety license. Youve yet really said one reason why forcing people to have a safety license is really going to help everyone. A gun safety license doesnt cure dumbass. People get a drivers license all the time that are dumb as rocks. You are just giving more power to the govt. There are far more problems then helping anything.
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
and the comment about me thinking there is some species of criminal out there? what are you talking about kickmeister? No im saying that criminals dont obey the law. So making more laws doesnt stop anything.
Man people just give their fucking rights away left and right to the govt. It is amazing reading this stuff in this thread. It really is.
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
And how does a license fix any of that? my god. I dont know what you people are arguing. Its part of being in america. We have the right to own guns. Its what makes america special. Yea there are some occasional problems, but
having a license doesnt make you not a dumbass. Dumbasses get their drivers license without knowing anything. Its not going to help. Huge govt program wasting more money and then in turn documenting gun owners. That is dangerous.
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
And how does a license fix any of that? my god. I dont know what you people are arguing. Its part of being in america. We have the right to own guns. Its what makes america special. Yea there are some occasional problems, but
having a license doesnt make you not a dumbass. Dumbasses get their drivers license without knowing anything. Its not going to help. Huge govt program wasting more money and then in turn documenting gun owners. That is dangerous.
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
And how does a license fix any of that? my god. I dont know what you people are arguing. Its part of being in america. We have the right to own guns. Its what makes america special. Yea there are some occasional problems, but
having a license doesnt make you not a dumbass. Dumbasses get their drivers license without knowing anything. Its not going to help. Huge govt program wasting more money and then in turn documenting gun owners. That is dangerous.
Fear driven media BS waste of time.
Sad
typical leftist response. No substance. Tell me whats sad. Freedom is sad?
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
This statement (bolded for emphasis) is patently false. Everyone has to take a written test (typically now done on computer) and a driving test with a licensed instructor.
The intructor sits in the passenger seat and issues verbal instructions and grades you on your technique and performance.
This is true in Louisiana and Texas, and probably every other state. IDK I didn't check the regulations in all 50 states. Please tell me, what state do you live in where you don't have to take a hands on performance test to obtain a license to drive a vehicle?
Furthermore, a motor vehicle can be a deadly weapon to bystanders or occupants if used improperly and so is a firearm.
Yes, we have traffic laws to help prevent accidents, but yes they can and do still happen. And there are also gun laws as well. And yes, people do violate the law, and in both instances there are consequences.
But why do you feel it is acceptible that driver education should be required to operate a vehicle, but not gun safety classes for ownership or possession of a firearm?
Is it a Constiutional thing? Perhaps the spirit of the constitution would allow for regulation even if the letter didn't. We cannot know for sure the intentions of the people who wrote and signed it as they are no longer alive today.
Nowhere does it say people have a right to operate a vehicle. But people still used horses for transportation at that time as internal combustion engines had not yet been invented. There also were not military grade assualt rifles that could spray bullets into a crowd or rampant violence or people shooting up the streets either.
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
This statement is patently false. Everyone has to take a written test (typically now done on computer) and a driving test with a licensed instructor.
The intructor sits in the passenger seat and issues verbal instructions and grades you on your technique and performance.
This is true in Louisiana and Texas, and probably every other state. IDK I didn't check the regulations in all 50 states. Please tell me, what state do you live in where you don't have to take a hands on performance test to obtain a license to drive a vehicle?
Furthermore, a motor vehicle can be a deadly weapon to bystanders or occupants if used improperly and so is a firearm.
So why is it acceptible that driver education should be required to operate a vehicle, but not gun safety classes for ownership or possession of a firearm?
Because guns are different than cars. Cars are transportation. Guns are for protection and a constitutional right.
oh you mean their parent who just has to write down they rode with them?
oh what a test.
AND THE BOLDED PART. THATS MY POINT. A drivers license means nothing. Doesnt prevent accidents.
My entire point is a license means shit, and its not going to help anything. You already have to have a license to carry in most states which I also disagree with
Im not a crazy gun person. Im talking about constitutional rights, and the problems with what you are proposing
Yup freedom is sad. That's definitely it. As a typical leftist I just hate freedom so much. Just beat me with your freedom stick. It'll make me love Toby Keith and Jesus. i swear to your god my skin isn't brown. Otherwise your freedom stick would have no effect
Yup freedom is sad. That's definitely it. As a typical leftist I just hate freedom so much. Just beat me with your freedom stick. It'll make me love Toby Keith and Jesus. i swear to your god my skin isn't brown. Otherwise your freedom stick would have no effect
LMAO wut?
Spooky how accurately you got my personality nailed down.
typical leftist response. No substance. Tell me whats sad. Freedom is sad?
It is sad that people exist who have no respect for the law or the well being of their fellow humankind.
People are living in fear all the time, and more guns = more fear, more gun violence, more killings, not less.
So I do think that there needs to be more regulation than currently exists. The United States has less restriction than any industrialized country in the free world, and cuncurrently has the highest incidence of gun crimes and murder rates. I do not believe this is a coincidence.
Yes it sucks for gun owners, but something needs to be done. And maybe police departments would be better off melting down seized guns for scrap metal as opposed to selling them back to the street for profit.
Yup freedom is sad. That's definitely it. As a typical leftist I just hate freedom so much. Just beat me with your freedom stick. It'll make me love Toby Keith and Jesus. i swear to your god my skin isn't brown. Otherwise your freedom stick would have no effect
LMAO wut?
Spooky how accurately you got my personality nailed down.
You set that ball in motion with your constant "leftist" rhetoric. What else am I to assume?
typical leftist response. No substance. Tell me whats sad. Freedom is sad?
It is sad that people exist who have no respect for the law or the well being of their fellow humankind.
People are living in fear all the time, and more guns = more fear, more gun violence, more killings, not less.
So I do think that there needs to be more regulation than currently exists. The United States has less restriction than any industrialized country in the free world, and cuncurrently has the highest incidence of gun crimes and murder rates. I do not believe this is a coincidence.
Yes it sucks for gun owners, but something needs to be done. And maybe police departments would be better off melting down seized guns for scrap metal as opposed to selling them back to the street for profit.
and your proposing a safety license. What is that going to do?
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
I'm sorry but don't talk to me about your freedoms when the only one you've expressed any interest in is the second amendment. I'm not saying that's all that you're all about but if you use the Limbaugh language i have to assume that you're a dittohead. Screw your guns that no ones ever actually threatened. You should be concerned for your first amendment rights before you worry about your second
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
I'm sorry but don't talk to me about your freedoms when the only one you've expressed any interest in is the second amendment. I'm not saying that's all that you're all about but if you use the Limbaugh language i have to assume that you're a dittohead. Screw your guns that no ones ever actually threatened. You should be concerned for your first amendment rights before you worry about your second
?? Im talking about the second amendment because thats what they brought up. Ive brought up my libertarian views on alot of different things on this site. Maybe you confused me with someone else?
limbaugh? nah dont listen to him. I listen to sports radio or music in the car. Whats a dittohead?
why are you so judgemental? damn
I can make judgements on you too. Were your parents conservatives? Are you just upset at them and getting back at them?
All im saying is you came in here trying to put me down and just say one word. Gotta explain yourself better
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
I am a snowflake. No, I take it back. I am StarDust...
The difference? Snowflakes fall from the sky. I fall from outer space...
How did we even get on gun control??? Nothing substantial has changed on that issue nor has it even been discussed. Also, I doubt ANYTHING more restrictive is going to happen with Trump as president and a republican-controlled congress.
If we are going to argue in a thread about Donald Trump being elected and current issues, how about we discuss the very real and current issue of refugees??? Obviously everyone isn't going to agree on that topic either, but at least that is a real issue that is affecting people right now. Somehow a discussion about refugees turned into gun rights and then devolved into a back and forth argument about that, detracting from any constructive discussion. I'm not trying to bash the people who went there, but just pointing this out. GUYS/GALS/FRIENDS/MEMBERS - Can we try to be respectful of each other and talk about issues that matter and not just go downhill into the typical cynical responses, immediate judgments of others, etc??? Please, it really isn't that hard.
Every political topic and discussion (not just on NA, but in general) always tends to just shift toward a battle of left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative, democrat vs. republican, me vs. you, etc. And the issues at stake, and the people they actually impact, just get left behind while people on the outside argue with each other. When we hear what someone else says and when they share their thoughts, why instantly jump to putting them on the other side and discounting their opinion by saying it is only informed by misinformation promulgated by a corrupt party or a manipulative media? It's so much easier to just completely write someone else off because they are on a different side of the political spectrum.
When we talk about refugees and whether or not we should allow them in or how we handle the issue - why can't we just talk about the issue itself and the challenges and benefits and the pros and cons of policies and how they affect us?
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Great analogy. A good Chess player often shows restraint. If you bust into the enemy defenses too early in the game using snatch and grab tactics, you are liable to lose your queen or other valuable pieces.
That knight I seemingly left unguarded might be a freebie, or it may be "bait" as a distraction from the stealth checkmate I am preparing on the other side of the board...
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
You're acting as if there is some species called Criminal that spawn from vats at the Criminal Factory and can only do and think of Criminal Things. The guy who holds up a liquor store may in fact be a dickweed who can't be asked to find work, or could be an alcoholic who's 10 bottles past "just one more", or could be broke for [inset reason here]. This is not excusing any of this behavior, but the whole "they'll just get up to no good some other way" is a super weak excuse and makes about as much sense as saying we should repeal all laws because there are people who won't follow them regardless. It's not like there's a group of people programmed to kill, maim, loot and destroy from birth and beep boop boop beep they must execute program.
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
+1.
You are acting like by making a govt license is going to stop gun violence. lmao. slippery slope
Guns violence is on its way down. Hysteria about freaking nothing. Leftist Media agenda
What you all are describing sound like household accidents. It comes along with it. Part of life. It comes with being in a free country. You arent going to stop that with some safety license. Youve yet really said one reason why forcing people to have a safety license is really going to help everyone. A gun safety license doesnt cure dumbass. People get a drivers license all the time that are dumb as rocks. You are just giving more power to the govt. There are far more problems then helping anything.
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
and the comment about me thinking there is some species of criminal out there? what are you talking about kickmeister? No im saying that criminals dont obey the law. So making more laws doesnt stop anything.
Man people just give their fucking rights away left and right to the govt. It is amazing reading this stuff in this thread. It really is.
1: No I am not saying that licensing will completely halt gun violence the same way that drug laws don't keep everyone from getting drugs. I'm also assuming that you're not against drug laws or against any law that is routinely broken just because it does not prevent 100% of the activity it is set against. As for household accidents, yes, testing will prevent some. You will not find a single person here suggesting that it will eliminate all. I am going to, again, assume that you do not want to remove safety restrictions on anything just because they are only 99.99% effective.
As for the "species of criminal" content, you seem to be imagining some monolithic criminal element where someone who wants a gun is some evil mustache-twirling career criminal who will stop at absolutely nothing to get one, as if anyone who has done something against the law is just dead set on doing everything that way. The reality is that even people searching for guns illegally aren't all going to know where to find one. You're not exactly helping yourself with comments like "typical leftist reponse" which suggests you're either incapable of treating people as individuals, or unwilling to, and only see them as devoted blocs who think in lockstep, when that's clearly not the case.
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Great analogy. A good Chess player often shows restraint. If you bust into the enemy defenses too early in the game using snatch and grab tactics, you are liable to lose your queen or other valuable pieces.
That knight I seemingly left unguarded might be a freebie, or it may be "bait" as a distraction from the stealth checkmate I am preparing on the other side of the board...
My analogy was more direct in terms of him failing to think even ONE move ahead, let alone 3 or 4...
EDIT: and hearing today's tweet... not sure Trump is even at the level of being able to consistently stalemate a game of Tic Tac Toe...
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Clusterfuck is putting it lightly. There would be far less outrage and trouble if he blocked the issuing of new visas for those countries, but the moment he blocked the entrance of people who have actual green cards (which makes them permanent residents), it became a real mess and a major blow to Trump's government. It would also be okay to make the process to go through customs much longer for those with tourist/business visas coming from those countries, but he had to go with the most extreme, damaging way to deal with it.
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Clusterfuck is putting it lightly. There would be far less outrage and trouble if he blocked the issuing of new visas for those countries, but the moment he blocked the entrance of people who have actual green cards (which makes them permanent residents), it became a real mess and a major blow to Trump's government. It would also be okay to make the process to go through customs much longer for those with tourist/business visas coming from those countries, but he had to go with the most extreme, damaging way to deal with it.
At least courts promptly overruled the issue about green cards, but yes the treatment of already issued visas is going to go down in history as a shameful event in our history, and hopefully books get the record straight on how unpopular this move was and that it is not representative of Americans as a people.
But it is hard to conjure up a past presidential action that has done more damage to our perception in the rest of the world.
Comments
So, yeah..."law and order" and all that, right?
I am all for gun safety. Thats what good parents do. Im not for govt mandating anything.
Heres a scenario. Say I have a license in your scenario to buy a gun. I have it locked up and everything and its there for my family safety. Now say someone breaks in when im not there and my in this case imaginary wife who doesnt have a "license" defends herself from an intruder threatening her life. So now she is a criminal for defending herself because she didnt have a license. Just so many loopholes and gray scenarios that would make this not work.
Are the classes free? who pays for them? How are the records kept?
Bottomline. Its just less freedom and more govt intervention. Also sounds like an agenda to get all the people with guns in a database record. That is something you dont want.
What I'm most surprised is the Mayans didn't predict this, like wtf?
No one believes the Mayans, they're at least 5 years off with their apocalypse prediction.
You might as well argue that the Constitution is a "privilege." All the gun fear out there is ridiculous-- I've owned a firearm for over 16 years and it hasn't jumped out and shot anyone. No classes required, figuring out how to store ammo in a separate location and how to use the safety isn't exactly rocket science.
My father learned to drive a pickup truck and a tractor by the age of 12. Presumably other people could too. That doesn't mean that nobody should be given a drivers test. If nothing else it weeds out those for whom these things apparently are rocket science.
The ability to defend oneself by force of arms is an inherent human right; if you want to get technical about it I'm sure that some kids on farms could handle rifles by age 6. Yet in my state there's already the reasonable restriction that no rifle or shotgun be sold to a person under the age of 18. You're saying that someone needs more than 18 years to figure out how to read a manual and not point the barrel at their head? Gimme me a break.
You are totally missing the point. This has nothing to do with taking guns away or denying people their right to own them at all, so i don't know why you are even bringing it up. All he said is that there should be stricter laws that require better classes and training for people, so they can learn the proper etiquette that is needed when you are owning something as lethal as a gun.
You can still shoot a gun under the age of 18 with supervision and partake in target shooting and even hunting, which is more than enough. What does a 12 year old belong owning their own gun for in your example? Self defense? Leave it to your parents who can easily legally own a gun for that and protect you and their household. When you hit 18 and become an adult and move out, then you can also own one and protect your own family, after you take the necessary classes/tests to prove you are worthy of owning one.
Not everyone has common sense. People do dumb shit with guns all the time and get themselves killed or someone else. A test just weeds out the idiots who are to dangerous to be trusted with a weapon. Just like his comparison to driving. If you take a drivers test and run red lights and crash into a utility pole, i think it is safe to say you are not ready to have a license and be out on the road with others. Sounds pretty fair to me. Prove you are not an idiot, and you can have a gun.
If you want no rules, go live off the grid somewhere.
Thank you. Beyond the street gangs and criminal types, there's still a lot of otherwise law obiding dumbasses out there (ie someone might "stare down the barrel of the gun to see if it's loaded" level of ignorant), as well as unstable folks with mental/emotional disorders, and then those who believe in their way or the highway and shoot first, ask questions later. I'm not even talking "stand your ground" laws, but use of deadly force should be a last resort, not shoot to kill at the first sign of conflict.
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
You're acting as if there is some species called Criminal that spawn from vats at the Criminal Factory and can only do and think of Criminal Things. The guy who holds up a liquor store may in fact be a dickweed who can't be asked to find work, or could be an alcoholic who's 10 bottles past "just one more", or could be broke for [inset reason here]. This is not excusing any of this behavior, but the whole "they'll just get up to no good some other way" is a super weak excuse and makes about as much sense as saying we should repeal all laws because there are people who won't follow them regardless. It's not like there's a group of people programmed to kill, maim, loot and destroy from birth and beep boop boop beep they must execute program.
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
+1.
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
You're acting as if there is some species called Criminal that spawn from vats at the Criminal Factory and can only do and think of Criminal Things. The guy who holds up a liquor store may in fact be a dickweed who can't be asked to find work, or could be an alcoholic who's 10 bottles past "just one more", or could be broke for [inset reason here]. This is not excusing any of this behavior, but the whole "they'll just get up to no good some other way" is a super weak excuse and makes about as much sense as saying we should repeal all laws because there are people who won't follow them regardless. It's not like there's a group of people programmed to kill, maim, loot and destroy from birth and beep boop boop beep they must execute program.
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
+1.
You are acting like by making a govt license is going to stop gun violence. lmao. slippery slope
Guns violence is on its way down. Hysteria about freaking nothing. Leftist Media agenda
What you all are describing sound like household accidents. It comes along with it. Part of life. It comes with being in a free country. You arent going to stop that with some safety license. Youve yet really said one reason why forcing people to have a safety license is really going to help everyone. A gun safety license doesnt cure dumbass. People get a drivers license all the time that are dumb as rocks. You are just giving more power to the govt. There are far more problems then helping anything.
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
and the comment about me thinking there is some species of criminal out there? what are you talking about kickmeister? No im saying that criminals dont obey the law. So making more laws doesnt stop anything.
Man people just give their fucking rights away left and right to the govt. It is amazing reading this stuff in this thread. It really is.
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
And how does a license fix any of that? my god. I dont know what you people are arguing. Its part of being in america. We have the right to own guns. Its what makes america special. Yea there are some occasional problems, but
having a license doesnt make you not a dumbass. Dumbasses get their drivers license without knowing anything. Its not going to help. Huge govt program wasting more money and then in turn documenting gun owners. That is dangerous.
Fear driven media BS waste of time.
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
And how does a license fix any of that? my god. I dont know what you people are arguing. Its part of being in america. We have the right to own guns. Its what makes america special. Yea there are some occasional problems, but
having a license doesnt make you not a dumbass. Dumbasses get their drivers license without knowing anything. Its not going to help. Huge govt program wasting more money and then in turn documenting gun owners. That is dangerous.
Fear driven media BS waste of time.
Sad
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
And how does a license fix any of that? my god. I dont know what you people are arguing. Its part of being in america. We have the right to own guns. Its what makes america special. Yea there are some occasional problems, but
having a license doesnt make you not a dumbass. Dumbasses get their drivers license without knowing anything. Its not going to help. Huge govt program wasting more money and then in turn documenting gun owners. That is dangerous.
Fear driven media BS waste of time.
Sad
typical leftist response. No substance. Tell me whats sad. Freedom is sad?
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
This statement (bolded for emphasis) is patently false. Everyone has to take a written test (typically now done on computer) and a driving test with a licensed instructor.
The intructor sits in the passenger seat and issues verbal instructions and grades you on your technique and performance.
This is true in Louisiana and Texas, and probably every other state. IDK I didn't check the regulations in all 50 states. Please tell me, what state do you live in where you don't have to take a hands on performance test to obtain a license to drive a vehicle?
Furthermore, a motor vehicle can be a deadly weapon to bystanders or occupants if used improperly and so is a firearm.
Yes, we have traffic laws to help prevent accidents, but yes they can and do still happen. And there are also gun laws as well. And yes, people do violate the law, and in both instances there are consequences.
But why do you feel it is acceptible that driver education should be required to operate a vehicle, but not gun safety classes for ownership or possession of a firearm?
Is it a Constiutional thing? Perhaps the spirit of the constitution would allow for regulation even if the letter didn't. We cannot know for sure the intentions of the people who wrote and signed it as they are no longer alive today.
Nowhere does it say people have a right to operate a vehicle. But people still used horses for transportation at that time as internal combustion engines had not yet been invented. There also were not military grade assualt rifles that could spray bullets into a crowd or rampant violence or people shooting up the streets either.
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
This statement is patently false. Everyone has to take a written test (typically now done on computer) and a driving test with a licensed instructor.
The intructor sits in the passenger seat and issues verbal instructions and grades you on your technique and performance.
This is true in Louisiana and Texas, and probably every other state. IDK I didn't check the regulations in all 50 states. Please tell me, what state do you live in where you don't have to take a hands on performance test to obtain a license to drive a vehicle?
Furthermore, a motor vehicle can be a deadly weapon to bystanders or occupants if used improperly and so is a firearm.
So why is it acceptible that driver education should be required to operate a vehicle, but not gun safety classes for ownership or possession of a firearm?
Because guns are different than cars. Cars are transportation. Guns are for protection and a constitutional right.
oh you mean their parent who just has to write down they rode with them?
oh what a test.
AND THE BOLDED PART. THATS MY POINT. A drivers license means nothing. Doesnt prevent accidents.
My entire point is a license means shit, and its not going to help anything. You already have to have a license to carry in most states which I also disagree with
Im not a crazy gun person. Im talking about constitutional rights, and the problems with what you are proposing
Yup freedom is sad. That's definitely it. As a typical leftist I just hate freedom so much. Just beat me with your freedom stick. It'll make me love Toby Keith and Jesus. i swear to your god my skin isn't brown. Otherwise your freedom stick would have no effect
LMAO wut?
Spooky how accurately you got my personality nailed down.
typical leftist response. No substance. Tell me whats sad. Freedom is sad?
It is sad that people exist who have no respect for the law or the well being of their fellow humankind.
People are living in fear all the time, and more guns = more fear, more gun violence, more killings, not less.
So I do think that there needs to be more regulation than currently exists. The United States has less restriction than any industrialized country in the free world, and cuncurrently has the highest incidence of gun crimes and murder rates. I do not believe this is a coincidence.
Yes it sucks for gun owners, but something needs to be done. And maybe police departments would be better off melting down seized guns for scrap metal as opposed to selling them back to the street for profit.
Yup freedom is sad. That's definitely it. As a typical leftist I just hate freedom so much. Just beat me with your freedom stick. It'll make me love Toby Keith and Jesus. i swear to your god my skin isn't brown. Otherwise your freedom stick would have no effect
LMAO wut?
Spooky how accurately you got my personality nailed down.
You set that ball in motion with your constant "leftist" rhetoric. What else am I to assume?
typical leftist response. No substance. Tell me whats sad. Freedom is sad?
It is sad that people exist who have no respect for the law or the well being of their fellow humankind.
People are living in fear all the time, and more guns = more fear, more gun violence, more killings, not less.
So I do think that there needs to be more regulation than currently exists. The United States has less restriction than any industrialized country in the free world, and cuncurrently has the highest incidence of gun crimes and murder rates. I do not believe this is a coincidence.
Yes it sucks for gun owners, but something needs to be done. And maybe police departments would be better off melting down seized guns for scrap metal as opposed to selling them back to the street for profit.
and your proposing a safety license. What is that going to do?
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
I'm sorry but don't talk to me about your freedoms when the only one you've expressed any interest in is the second amendment. I'm not saying that's all that you're all about but if you use the Limbaugh language i have to assume that you're a dittohead. Screw your guns that no ones ever actually threatened. You should be concerned for your first amendment rights before you worry about your second
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
I'm sorry but don't talk to me about your freedoms when the only one you've expressed any interest in is the second amendment. I'm not saying that's all that you're all about but if you use the Limbaugh language i have to assume that you're a dittohead. Screw your guns that no ones ever actually threatened. You should be concerned for your first amendment rights before you worry about your second
?? Im talking about the second amendment because thats what they brought up. Ive brought up my libertarian views on alot of different things on this site. Maybe you confused me with someone else?
limbaugh? nah dont listen to him. I listen to sports radio or music in the car. Whats a dittohead?
why are you so judgemental? damn
I can make judgements on you too. Were your parents conservatives? Are you just upset at them and getting back at them?
All im saying is you came in here trying to put me down and just say one word. Gotta explain yourself better
Call me a libtard maybe ? How about a snowflake or cuck?
You enjoy the punishement dont you?
i said leftist. I have more restraint than that typically bra. You have no substance. Sensational posting. If you wanna excuse yourself feel free. Typically takes awhile for me to use snowflake.
Atleast the other wrong people have an idea they want to try.
I am a snowflake. No, I take it back. I am StarDust...
The difference? Snowflakes fall from the sky. I fall from outer space...
If we are going to argue in a thread about Donald Trump being elected and current issues, how about we discuss the very real and current issue of refugees??? Obviously everyone isn't going to agree on that topic either, but at least that is a real issue that is affecting people right now. Somehow a discussion about refugees turned into gun rights and then devolved into a back and forth argument about that, detracting from any constructive discussion. I'm not trying to bash the people who went there, but just pointing this out. GUYS/GALS/FRIENDS/MEMBERS - Can we try to be respectful of each other and talk about issues that matter and not just go downhill into the typical cynical responses, immediate judgments of others, etc??? Please, it really isn't that hard.
Every political topic and discussion (not just on NA, but in general) always tends to just shift toward a battle of left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative, democrat vs. republican, me vs. you, etc. And the issues at stake, and the people they actually impact, just get left behind while people on the outside argue with each other. When we hear what someone else says and when they share their thoughts, why instantly jump to putting them on the other side and discounting their opinion by saying it is only informed by misinformation promulgated by a corrupt party or a manipulative media? It's so much easier to just completely write someone else off because they are on a different side of the political spectrum.
When we talk about refugees and whether or not we should allow them in or how we handle the issue - why can't we just talk about the issue itself and the challenges and benefits and the pros and cons of policies and how they affect us?
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Great analogy. A good Chess player often shows restraint. If you bust into the enemy defenses too early in the game using snatch and grab tactics, you are liable to lose your queen or other valuable pieces.
That knight I seemingly left unguarded might be a freebie, or it may be "bait" as a distraction from the stealth checkmate I am preparing on the other side of the board...
^ response to magus
You act like crazy people and criminals would give a damn about the rules
you are trying to make rules that dont really help anything and fix problems that dont exist.
whens the last time criminals gave a damn about a law? Are they not going to drive to commit a crime now because they have a suspended license? Are they going to not shoot someone because oh shucks i dont have a gun license. Please.
They will get the gun they need on black market or steal it from a family member etc. Hell most crazies will pass a background check to get a gun anyway. People being irresonsible and dumb with guns isnt really an issue that needs to be addressed
You're acting as if there is some species called Criminal that spawn from vats at the Criminal Factory and can only do and think of Criminal Things. The guy who holds up a liquor store may in fact be a dickweed who can't be asked to find work, or could be an alcoholic who's 10 bottles past "just one more", or could be broke for [inset reason here]. This is not excusing any of this behavior, but the whole "they'll just get up to no good some other way" is a super weak excuse and makes about as much sense as saying we should repeal all laws because there are people who won't follow them regardless. It's not like there's a group of people programmed to kill, maim, loot and destroy from birth and beep boop boop beep they must execute program.
The guy who legally owns his gun for years and then shoots his wife is a law-abiding gun owner until the moment he commits the act. The parent who leaves their handgun lying around where there kid can find it isn't a criminal but is still a shitty parent. There are plenty of reasons to have training and licensing for the American right to bear arms, which I am not against.
+1.
You are acting like by making a govt license is going to stop gun violence. lmao. slippery slope
Guns violence is on its way down. Hysteria about freaking nothing. Leftist Media agenda
What you all are describing sound like household accidents. It comes along with it. Part of life. It comes with being in a free country. You arent going to stop that with some safety license. Youve yet really said one reason why forcing people to have a safety license is really going to help everyone. A gun safety license doesnt cure dumbass. People get a drivers license all the time that are dumb as rocks. You are just giving more power to the govt. There are far more problems then helping anything.
Having a license to drive sure doesnt really help accidents does it? no not really. They dont even require actual behind the wheel tests.
and the comment about me thinking there is some species of criminal out there? what are you talking about kickmeister? No im saying that criminals dont obey the law. So making more laws doesnt stop anything.
Man people just give their fucking rights away left and right to the govt. It is amazing reading this stuff in this thread. It really is.
1: No I am not saying that licensing will completely halt gun violence the same way that drug laws don't keep everyone from getting drugs. I'm also assuming that you're not against drug laws or against any law that is routinely broken just because it does not prevent 100% of the activity it is set against. As for household accidents, yes, testing will prevent some. You will not find a single person here suggesting that it will eliminate all. I am going to, again, assume that you do not want to remove safety restrictions on anything just because they are only 99.99% effective.
As for the "species of criminal" content, you seem to be imagining some monolithic criminal element where someone who wants a gun is some evil mustache-twirling career criminal who will stop at absolutely nothing to get one, as if anyone who has done something against the law is just dead set on doing everything that way. The reality is that even people searching for guns illegally aren't all going to know where to find one. You're not exactly helping yourself with comments like "typical leftist reponse" which suggests you're either incapable of treating people as individuals, or unwilling to, and only see them as devoted blocs who think in lockstep, when that's clearly not the case.
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Great analogy. A good Chess player often shows restraint. If you bust into the enemy defenses too early in the game using snatch and grab tactics, you are liable to lose your queen or other valuable pieces.
That knight I seemingly left unguarded might be a freebie, or it may be "bait" as a distraction from the stealth checkmate I am preparing on the other side of the board...
My analogy was more direct in terms of him failing to think even ONE move ahead, let alone 3 or 4...
EDIT: and hearing today's tweet... not sure Trump is even at the level of being able to consistently stalemate a game of Tic Tac Toe...
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Clusterfuck is putting it lightly. There would be far less outrage and trouble if he blocked the issuing of new visas for those countries, but the moment he blocked the entrance of people who have actual green cards (which makes them permanent residents), it became a real mess and a major blow to Trump's government. It would also be okay to make the process to go through customs much longer for those with tourist/business visas coming from those countries, but he had to go with the most extreme, damaging way to deal with it.
Left or right, I would hope that we could all agree that Trump's executive order on middle eastern immigration is nothing less than a clusterfuck, and that the action more or less proves that he is not a "chess player" since it lacked any and all foresight into the consequences, and all the while his propaganda machine is trying to claim it is a huge success.
Clusterfuck is putting it lightly. There would be far less outrage and trouble if he blocked the issuing of new visas for those countries, but the moment he blocked the entrance of people who have actual green cards (which makes them permanent residents), it became a real mess and a major blow to Trump's government. It would also be okay to make the process to go through customs much longer for those with tourist/business visas coming from those countries, but he had to go with the most extreme, damaging way to deal with it.
At least courts promptly overruled the issue about green cards, but yes the treatment of already issued visas is going to go down in history as a shameful event in our history, and hopefully books get the record straight on how unpopular this move was and that it is not representative of Americans as a people.
But it is hard to conjure up a past presidential action that has done more damage to our perception in the rest of the world.