Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
So basically fcgamer is saying hey guys you cant call anything in your set rare because this variant collector over here has the only known copy of south african variant soccer.
Get over yourself. No one is saying they have anything one of a kind. They have a rare nes game relative to the nes gsme official set
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Yes, old fart collector I am, for over fifteen years. That still doesn't change the merit in the words I wrote, however; take something like the game library for the Super A'can, for example. The games are easily worth $100+ each, some upwards to $300, but be damned if anyone can turn them up easily. I can't conjure that stuff up, despite it being developed and released on the small island on which I live (the state in which you live in is vastly larger than the island on which I live), yet still that shit just isn't found. It is truly rare - low production runs, etc. Little Samson may be worth more, and it might equally be hard to find in the wild, but it is still much easier to find Samson in the wild than some of the A'can games, and that is because Samson is just an over-hyped game with a smaller production run than most licensed NES games; but that is it. Just saying.
People might not give a shit about a South African region Soccer on NES, but in terms of rarity, is blows Samson out of the water, like it or not.
So basically fcgamer is saying hey guys you cant call anything in your set rare because this variant collector over here has the only known copy of south african variant soccer.
Get over yourself. No one is saying they have anything one of a kind. They have a rare nes game relative to the nes gsme official set
No, what I am saying is that over-hyped, mass-produced games hardly qualify as rare, whether they sell for high prices or not.
It seems that a lot of people here resent this statement a bit, but sadly true rarity also goes hand in hand with obscurity. How many other South African version Soccer carts do you know about? What about South African NES consoles? I know someone on here who has one. And the list goes on. I don't equate rarity with value, like many on here do, but I can recognite rare items for what they are.
Edit: I would like to add, the OP asks in his thread, about production numbers about rarity. By default, the items I am talking about (the true rares) would have had much lower production runs than anything in the so-called "official set" (why an official licensed South African Soccer cart is unofficial, is beyond me, but whatever)
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Prior to the days of ebay and Beanie Babies RARE meant something different than it does today. If you look to the other hobbies from comics to furnature rare has a specific connotation that is just short of the term "unique". The term has been warped by modern day collectors to suit their own needs to mean something that it never did before. The same thing happened with the word Mint. There was a time when Mint meant perfect and nothing could be better. Now you see these words propped up with adjectives to support it. GEM MINT ! ULTRA RARE !
So basically fcgamer is saying hey guys you cant call anything in your set rare because this variant collector over here has the only known copy of south african variant soccer.
Get over yourself. No one is saying they have anything one of a kind. They have a rare nes game relative to the nes gsme official set
No, what I am saying is that over-hyped, mass-produced games hardly qualify as rare, whether they sell for high prices or not.
It seems that a lot of people here resent this statement a bit, but sadly true rarity also goes hand in hand with obscurity. How many other South African version Soccer carts do you know about? What about South African NES consoles? I know someone on here who has one. And the list goes on. I don't equate rarity with value, like many on here do, but I can recognite rare items for what they are.
Edit: I would like to add, the OP asks in his thread, about production numbers about rarity. By default, the items I am talking about (the true rares) would have had much lower production runs than anything in the so-called "official set" (why an official licensed South African Soccer cart is unofficial, is beyond me, but whatever)
Don't mean to randomly jump in but I feel like you're both focusing on different points.
Quest is totally correct that Little Samson is rare by comparison to the rest of the NTSC NES retail set. You don't just stumble across that game. Also, we all know price doesn't necessarily correlate with rarity. Is Samson over-hyped or mass-produced? Maybe, but it's still damn hard to find. (again by comparison)
I get what you're saying too Dave, in the big picture of collecting video games, Little Samson isn't rare.
Lastly, I don't recall seeing anyone here directly compare a games rarity with its price. We all know that isn't accurate.
Rarity in terms of modern rarity guides for video games has always been defined as rarity relative to the other items in the set.
If I make a homebrew 1 of 1 with no more copies ever produced, I wouldn't brag about it being the rarest game in existence. Desirability does have a connotation with how rare is perceived.
Rarity in terms of modern rarity guides for video games has always been defined as rarity relative to the other items in the set.
If I make a homebrew 1 of 1 with no more copies ever produced, I wouldn't brag about it being the rarest game in existence. Desirability does have a connotation with how rare is perceived.
So why were the Sachens excluded from the set (not just for Jone, but just a comment in general)? Huge Insect being top, but the others also being expensive, rare, and pains to obtain, for the most part. Hmm.
I am just saying the above in jest, but I think these games were never accepted as part of the set, the rarity did have something to do with it.
Rarity in terms of modern rarity guides for video games has always been defined as rarity relative to the other items in the set.
If I make a homebrew 1 of 1 with no more copies ever produced, I wouldn't brag about it being the rarest game in existence. Desirability does have a connotation with how rare is perceived.
So why were the Sachens excluded from the set (not just for Jone, but just a comment in general)? Huge Insect being top, but the others also being expensive, rare, and pains to obtain, for the most part. Hmm.
I am just saying the above in jest, but I think these games were never accepted as part of the set, the rarity did have something to do with it.
I'm not the person to argue with about that (I'm not passionate either way and I only collect licensed), but my general "vibe" is that they are poor quality and similar to bootlegs more than official releases. Though Cheetahman II or Action 52 are no better (probably?) and I'm sure it is no coincidence that their poor quality is why their prices have been fairly flat regardless of rarity.
The connotation with rarity is more regarding availability relative to demand than true print run. Example:
Only 20 of this item exist in the entire world. Yet it is on eBay every single day because no one wants it. Not seen as rare.
10,000 of this item exist in the entire world. There are no BINs on eBay and it goes decent amounts of times without appearing (months), with a huge frenzy of bidding activity when it appears. It is seen as rare.
The problem is that people are arguing the literal definition of the word "rare" when it is inheritently subjective, just like condition. One person's Mint is not another person's Mint even if it *should* be the same. One person's rare is not another person's rare even if it *should* be...
Yes price obviously isnt a direct correlation with rarity. Everyone knows that. But if a games supply demand price point is at a thousand dollars , im pretty sure its rare relative to nes games. More than just an uncommon.
Comparing rare variants isnt relative to an nes set. Comparing comic definitions of rare production numbers to nes games isnt relative to an nes set.
Sorry about the typos. Phone nintendoage layout and reply quoting is a nightmare to use.
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Yes, old fart collector I am, for over fifteen years. That still doesn't change the merit in the words I wrote, however; take something like the game library for the Super A'can, for example. The games are easily worth $100+ each, some upwards to $300, but be damned if anyone can turn them up easily. I can't conjure that stuff up, despite it being developed and released on the small island on which I live (the state in which you live in is vastly larger than the island on which I live), yet still that shit just isn't found. It is truly rare - low production runs, etc. Little Samson may be worth more, and it might equally be hard to find in the wild, but it is still much easier to find Samson in the wild than some of the A'can games, and that is because Samson is just an over-hyped game with a smaller production run than most licensed NES games; but that is it. Just saying.
People might not give a shit about a South African region Soccer on NES, but in terms of rarity, is blows Samson out of the water, like it or not.
Yes price obviously isnt a direct correlation with rarity. Everyone knows that. But if a games supply demand price point is at a thousand dollars , im pretty sure its rare relative to nes games. More than just an uncommon.
Comparing rare variants isnt relative to an nes set. Comparing comic definitions of rare production numbers to nes games isnt relative to an nes set.
Sorry about the typos. Phone nintendoage layout and reply quoting is a nightmare to use.
Yeah the gerber definitions are interesting but they are also 25 years old, done prior to the internet, proven to be wrong subsequently, and most importantly derived with golden age comics (1930s & 1940s) in mind. Totally apples and oranges. The original owners are mostly dead and the world supply is pretty well known. People will still be finding NES games in attics forty years from now; the total supply is not known.
That said words have meanings and rare should mean something specific. For me, that means SE and myriad and nothing else as far as retail NES games, because they are on a different level from everything else. Wish we had more concrete numbers on production but we don't.
Bringing up Myriad is interesting, it's the same as Caltron with a different label on top. Shouldn't they both be counted as the same, in terms of production numbers? Is it just the sticker on top that should be considered rare?
Bringing up Myriad is interesting, it's the same as Caltron with a different label on top. Shouldn't they both be counted as the same, in terms of production numbers? Is it just the sticker on top that should be considered rare?
Well no.
Forget the fact as cartridges they are similar.
The whole package, as it hit retail, was very different. Unique box, unique manual.
Someone said that all NES games started off as sealed games. Yes they did. And you sure wouldn't confuse a sealed myriad with a sealed caltron. It is a unique release just the same as SE vs WCTM, or the different versions of pacman, or whatever. Those play similar or the same as well, but are distinct releases for the same reason.
We don't have good sales data from most games of the 80s and 90s so basing it off data that doesn't exist would be hard. To me, something rare requires at least some effort to seek out. If you can throw money at Ebay any given day, it's probably not a rare game.
Yeah what little data we have comes from
- nintendo's minimum order quantity, which I think Howard Philips said was 10,000 ? Its in one of his posts.
- the numbering on Myriads
- the numbering on NWCs.
- million seller variants.
that's about it I think
Just to confirm, i know for sure HP claims 10,000 minimum print run for NES in the ESPN Stadium Events article
We don't have good sales data from most games of the 80s and 90s so basing it off data that doesn't exist would be hard. To me, something rare requires at least some effort to seek out. If you can throw money at Ebay any given day, it's probably not a rare game.
Yeah what little data we have comes from
- nintendo's minimum order quantity, which I think Howard Philips said was 10,000 ? Its in one of his posts.
- the numbering on Myriads
- the numbering on NWCs.
- million seller variants.
that's about it I think
Just to confirm, i know for sure HP claims 10,000 minimum print run for NES in the ESPN Stadium Events article
I don't remember what NP issue it ran in, but there was definitely an article about the Dragon Warrior series that had world-wide sales numbers for each game, up to that point. (DW1, 2, and 3, in advance of the release of DW4)
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
There are plenty of Nintendo items thare would be Gerber 10, they just aren't retail carts. It would have to be specific variants, high end sealed, rare promo merchandise, etc.
And rare is relative, the holy grail of all baseball cards, the Wagner T206 shows as 31 graded copies on the PSA website. Doesn't include other graded brands (SGC, etc.), but may include resubs (i.e. someone who had a PSA11 and resubbed hoping for PSA 2 would show up as 2 of 31 copies). Even with the regrades, it's going to be above 5 confirmed.
I think we need to disregard things like sealed games here. Just about every (US) game started out as a sealed game, so from the orginal author's point of view, in regards to print runs and rarities, sealed just doesn't have anything to do with it. Now of course it could be assumed that games with smaller print runs would also have fewer sealed copies remaining. Also, technically sealed was retail. I guess the real question would be if the Gerber scale takes into account condition, or do all Stadium Events, for example (sealed or otherwise) equally count?
Well, when he mentions the Gerber scale as having "X or fewer known copies", I assume they are talking about confirmed copies known in collector's hands. Not number of copies produced because no manufacturing company is going to start a manufacturing line for less than 5 items.
With most games print runs aren't very important. What is important is how many survived today. Now there were some Atari games produced in very limited numbers. Red Sea Crossing etc were Gerber 9 or Gerber 10 games right out of the gate. With modern games where the vast majority of the print run is suspected to be surviving the print run is also important.
Originally posted by: fcgamer
While the Wally Bear in the AGCI case is (supposed to be) an earlier build, I have no idea the reason so many ignore the Chiller published by Share Data, complete with different label and everything. It would be on the list as a unique release, equal to Caltron vs Myriad, if I were making the list.
Not here to debate Wally Bear but that Wally Bear in the picture does not have an earlier build. Someone else owns a WallyBear prototype with no label that has an early build.
So that Wally Bear of yours is retail, no different from the AVE release? I don't like the fact that the label doesn't exactly fit the cart, but if it is retail code, it would be on my list for sure as well.
Yes the ROM is identical.
The label would fit if you glued it back down. The people who owned if before me opened it up. Not sure if they found it this way or it happened while they owned it.
There are many debates on this game if you want to search for them. Those against it counting as a game often pointed to no box ever found. Those who think it should count cite the article in USA Today the national newspaper that offered it for sale. The discussions lost a lot of steam after many collectors eliminated all unlicensed titles from a full system requirement.
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
There are plenty of Nintendo items thare would be Gerber 10, they just aren't retail carts. It would have to be specific variants, high end sealed, rare promo merchandise, etc.
And rare is relative, the holy grail of all baseball cards, the Wagner T206 shows as 31 graded copies on the PSA website. Doesn't include other graded brands (SGC, etc.), but may include resubs (i.e. someone who had a PSA11 and resubbed hoping for PSA 2 would show up as 2 of 31 copies). Even with the regrades, it's going to be above 5 confirmed.
I think we need to disregard things like sealed games here. Just about every (US) game started out as a sealed game, so from the orginal author's point of view, in regards to print runs and rarities, sealed just doesn't have anything to do with it. Now of course it could be assumed that games with smaller print runs would also have fewer sealed copies remaining. Also, technically sealed was retail. I guess the real question would be if the Gerber scale takes into account condition, or do all Stadium Events, for example (sealed or otherwise) equally count?
Well, when he mentions the Gerber scale as having "X or fewer known copies", I assume they are talking about confirmed copies known in collector's hands. Not number of copies produced because no manufacturing company is going to start a manufacturing line for less than 5 items.
With most games print runs aren't very important. What is important is how many survived today. Now there were some Atari games produced in very limited numbers. Red Sea Crossing etc were Gerber 9 or Gerber 10 games right out of the gate. With modern games where the vast majority of the print run is suspected to be surviving the print run is also important.
Originally posted by: fcgamer
While the Wally Bear in the AGCI case is (supposed to be) an earlier build, I have no idea the reason so many ignore the Chiller published by Share Data, complete with different label and everything. It would be on the list as a unique release, equal to Caltron vs Myriad, if I were making the list.
Not here to debate Wally Bear but that Wally Bear in the picture does not have an earlier build. Someone else owns a WallyBear prototype with no label that has an early build.
So that Wally Bear of yours is retail, no different from the AVE release? I don't like the fact that the label doesn't exactly fit the cart, but if it is retail code, it would be on my list for sure as well.
Yes the ROM is identical.
The label would fit if you glued it back down. The people who owned if before me opened it up. Not sure if they found it this way or it happened while they owned it.
There are many debates on this game if you want to search for them. Those against it counting as a game often pointed to no box ever found. Those who think it should count cite the article in USA Today the national newspaper that offered it for sale. The discussions lost a lot of steam after many collectors eliminated all unlicensed titles from a full system requirement.
Lol on that last sentence, so true. Regarding the cart, I feel it should count, I have seen a lot of instances with stuff like this, no box / manual = doesn't count shouldn't be the deciding factor. About the label, I just thought it looked undersized for the cart, but I just checked, and the other AGCI releases are the same, so my last observation / concern was faulty memory more than anything.
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
I really wanted to make a joke about baby food, but this is super interesting. Is there any "production" game from nintendo that would even be a Gerber 8 or higher? I guess the NWC gold is a Gerber 7. The only other thing I can think of outside of the Atari carts are Kizuna Encounter and NBA Elite 11. Also, I'm sure fcgamer could chime in with some Chinese bootlegs, but not as many collectors are into those.
why would anyone want the sachens and the like to be included in the fullset? A fullset is anyway a completly arbitrary definition that is put by a community. One can have a different definition, it's personnal. I find the NA one absolute garbage but if the community is happy with it so be it.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
why would anyone want the sachens and the like to be included in the fullset? A fullset is anyway a completly arbitrary definition that is put by a community. One can have a different definition, it's personnal. I find the NA one absolute garbage but if the community is happy with it so be it.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
But nes collecting is cancerous anyway.
Milmar was not designed nor distributed for US distribution, neither was the NTDEC stuff, and the Whirlwind Manu stuff was pirated, so all of that stuff would not proper belong on a full set list of US games. But it has been proved that the Sachens did have some (limited) distribution back in the States, back in the day, and then at the end everyone started importing and distributing the damn games themselves, to US collectors. They should be on the list, but they were denied on most people's lists due to rarity, price, shitiness, and not wanting their fullsets to become not full
Yeah milmar wasn't but you get my point. as for ntdec, there has been ntdec cartridges sold in the USA but they were so poorly distributed they are just unseen now.
But as stated, a fullset is a complete arbitrary thing. People will go for a black box one, a famicom one w/o fds, a first party one, etc. There's no standard definition of it, if people want to follow one definition of it for reasons it's their damn choice? I don't get at all what you're trying to do in fact? Make sachen collecting as much cancerous as nes collecting is?
People are already retarded enough to just buy huge insect of them all because it's $$$$$ RARE $$$$$ so they can blow their trumpets on NA for days and butter themselves while they don't give a single fuck about sachen. j u s t g r e a t
Even from a print run standpoint, rarity is still a function that must consider distribution area and demand. If enough were made to swamp demand in a particularly small area, then it probably isn't "rare" in that area, even if the total numbers are lower than other "rare" games released over much larger areas.
Most cheap/common Japanese exclusives would be considered "rare" if their exact numbers were distributed worldwide instead. They are niche enough to the rest of the world that demand doesn't do this and everyone knows where they can get it if they want.
Yeah milmar wasn't but you get my point. as for ntdec, there has been ntdec cartridges sold in the USA but they were so poorly distributed they are just unseen now.
But as stated, a fullset is a complete arbitrary thing. People will go for a black box one, a famicom one w/o fds, a first party one, etc. There's no standard definition of it, if people want to follow one definition of it for reasons it's their damn choice? I don't get at all what you're trying to do in fact? Make sachen collecting as much cancerous as nes collecting is?
People are already retarded enough to just buy huge insect of them all because it's $$$$$ RARE $$$$$ so they can blow their trumpets on NA for days and butter themselves while they don't give a single fuck about sachen. j u s t g r e a t
Can we avoid such idiotic behavior to spread?
Why are you personally so concerned about whether the Sachen games stay niche or become more widely accepted? I think something like Huge Insect warrents a price like it has, given its background story and so few copies made.
Fullset back in the day was licensed + unlicensed, all of them, and only in more recent times have the concepts and definitions changed, a partial product of rising prices.
My point is, most of those NTDEC games weren't designed for distribution solely in America, a few Famicom pcbs + Famicom labels + Famicom to NES converters in a NES case + a generic box does not equate to the same situation as Sachen, i.e. carts with 72 pin boards, manuals, custom boxes, etc. Sure there were generic boxes later, but at first not that way. If the games were cheap and easily obtainable, there would be less resistance towards them.
Getting back to the original conversation:
While regional rarity may and can exist (someone mentioned something about Japanese games), I think we need to look at rarity within the regions, but also as a whole determined by production numbers. An example would be Korean NES games: talk to anyone living in Korea, and the same story is always told, how those games are so hard to find, even in the region. From a logical standpoint, of course Korean-branded NES games are going to be much lower in production numbers than an American release. Sure, the difficulty level may or may not be exaggerated slightly to help up demand and make sales, but the stuff certainly isn't common by any means, and I think we all could agree to that.
I collect obscure stuff, for the fact that it is indeed truely rare, some of it possibly almost reaching the one - of - a - kind level. People also mention about how initial production runs don't matter, since items get destroyed, broken, lost, etc over the years. Well, it also happens with those obscure items, the exact same thing occurs. So I think that sort of argument isn't a very good one.
In my opinion, rarity should be examined for what it is, namely how much of something exists. NWC carts are rare, Indonesian version Crusin USA's are rare, Little Samsons honestly not so much, imo.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
so why do they count EVERYTHING for Atari, but not NES? Yes, the Atari set is next to impossible, but they still count the items, and people still collect it
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
so why do they count EVERYTHING for Atari, but not NES? Yes, the Atari set is next to impossible, but they still count the items, and people still collect it
Correct. Perhaps that is why I have a strong opinion. When I first started collecting videogames Atari had a near complete list but NES was still being sold at retail stores.
The Atari list is done with a historian's perspective of completeness and I expected to see the same with the NES list.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
so why do they count EVERYTHING for Atari, but not NES? Yes, the Atari set is next to impossible, but they still count the items, and people still collect it
Correct. Perhaps that is why I have a strong opinion. When I first started collecting videogames Atari had a near complete list but NES was still being sold at retail stores.
The Atari list is done with a historian's perspective of completeness and I expected to see the same with the NES list.
Comments
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Get over yourself. No one is saying they have anything one of a kind. They have a rare nes game relative to the nes gsme official set
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Yes, old fart collector I am, for over fifteen years. That still doesn't change the merit in the words I wrote, however; take something like the game library for the Super A'can, for example. The games are easily worth $100+ each, some upwards to $300, but be damned if anyone can turn them up easily. I can't conjure that stuff up, despite it being developed and released on the small island on which I live (the state in which you live in is vastly larger than the island on which I live), yet still that shit just isn't found. It is truly rare - low production runs, etc. Little Samson may be worth more, and it might equally be hard to find in the wild, but it is still much easier to find Samson in the wild than some of the A'can games, and that is because Samson is just an over-hyped game with a smaller production run than most licensed NES games; but that is it. Just saying.
People might not give a shit about a South African region Soccer on NES, but in terms of rarity, is blows Samson out of the water, like it or not.
So basically fcgamer is saying hey guys you cant call anything in your set rare because this variant collector over here has the only known copy of south african variant soccer.
Get over yourself. No one is saying they have anything one of a kind. They have a rare nes game relative to the nes gsme official set
No, what I am saying is that over-hyped, mass-produced games hardly qualify as rare, whether they sell for high prices or not.
It seems that a lot of people here resent this statement a bit, but sadly true rarity also goes hand in hand with obscurity. How many other South African version Soccer carts do you know about? What about South African NES consoles? I know someone on here who has one. And the list goes on. I don't equate rarity with value, like many on here do, but I can recognite rare items for what they are.
Edit: I would like to add, the OP asks in his thread, about production numbers about rarity. By default, the items I am talking about (the true rares) would have had much lower production runs than anything in the so-called "official set" (why an official licensed South African Soccer cart is unofficial, is beyond me, but whatever)
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Prior to the days of ebay and Beanie Babies RARE meant something different than it does today. If you look to the other hobbies from comics to furnature rare has a specific connotation that is just short of the term "unique". The term has been warped by modern day collectors to suit their own needs to mean something that it never did before. The same thing happened with the word Mint. There was a time when Mint meant perfect and nothing could be better. Now you see these words propped up with adjectives to support it. GEM MINT ! ULTRA RARE !
Originally posted by: fcgamer
Originally posted by: quest4nes
So basically fcgamer is saying hey guys you cant call anything in your set rare because this variant collector over here has the only known copy of south african variant soccer.
Get over yourself. No one is saying they have anything one of a kind. They have a rare nes game relative to the nes gsme official set
No, what I am saying is that over-hyped, mass-produced games hardly qualify as rare, whether they sell for high prices or not.
It seems that a lot of people here resent this statement a bit, but sadly true rarity also goes hand in hand with obscurity. How many other South African version Soccer carts do you know about? What about South African NES consoles? I know someone on here who has one. And the list goes on. I don't equate rarity with value, like many on here do, but I can recognite rare items for what they are.
Edit: I would like to add, the OP asks in his thread, about production numbers about rarity. By default, the items I am talking about (the true rares) would have had much lower production runs than anything in the so-called "official set" (why an official licensed South African Soccer cart is unofficial, is beyond me, but whatever)
Don't mean to randomly jump in but I feel like you're both focusing on different points.
Quest is totally correct that Little Samson is rare by comparison to the rest of the NTSC NES retail set. You don't just stumble across that game. Also, we all know price doesn't necessarily correlate with rarity. Is Samson over-hyped or mass-produced? Maybe, but it's still damn hard to find. (again by comparison)
I get what you're saying too Dave, in the big picture of collecting video games, Little Samson isn't rare.
Lastly, I don't recall seeing anyone here directly compare a games rarity with its price. We all know that isn't accurate.
If I make a homebrew 1 of 1 with no more copies ever produced, I wouldn't brag about it being the rarest game in existence. Desirability does have a connotation with how rare is perceived.
Rarity in terms of modern rarity guides for video games has always been defined as rarity relative to the other items in the set.
If I make a homebrew 1 of 1 with no more copies ever produced, I wouldn't brag about it being the rarest game in existence. Desirability does have a connotation with how rare is perceived.
So why were the Sachens excluded from the set (not just for Jone, but just a comment in general)? Huge Insect being top, but the others also being expensive, rare, and pains to obtain, for the most part. Hmm.
I am just saying the above in jest, but I think these games were never accepted as part of the set, the rarity did have something to do with it.
Rarity in terms of modern rarity guides for video games has always been defined as rarity relative to the other items in the set.
If I make a homebrew 1 of 1 with no more copies ever produced, I wouldn't brag about it being the rarest game in existence. Desirability does have a connotation with how rare is perceived.
So why were the Sachens excluded from the set (not just for Jone, but just a comment in general)? Huge Insect being top, but the others also being expensive, rare, and pains to obtain, for the most part. Hmm.
I am just saying the above in jest, but I think these games were never accepted as part of the set, the rarity did have something to do with it.
I'm not the person to argue with about that (I'm not passionate either way and I only collect licensed), but my general "vibe" is that they are poor quality and similar to bootlegs more than official releases. Though Cheetahman II or Action 52 are no better (probably?) and I'm sure it is no coincidence that their poor quality is why their prices have been fairly flat regardless of rarity.
The connotation with rarity is more regarding availability relative to demand than true print run. Example:
Only 20 of this item exist in the entire world. Yet it is on eBay every single day because no one wants it. Not seen as rare.
10,000 of this item exist in the entire world. There are no BINs on eBay and it goes decent amounts of times without appearing (months), with a huge frenzy of bidding activity when it appears. It is seen as rare.
The problem is that people are arguing the literal definition of the word "rare" when it is inheritently subjective, just like condition. One person's Mint is not another person's Mint even if it *should* be the same. One person's rare is not another person's rare even if it *should* be...
Comparing rare variants isnt relative to an nes set. Comparing comic definitions of rare production numbers to nes games isnt relative to an nes set.
Sorry about the typos. Phone nintendoage layout and reply quoting is a nightmare to use.
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
Everyone knows that already though. When using the term rare its relative to the set of games. It doesnt matter what other hobbies deem is rare or not. Its comparing things that make no sense to compare. Saying well my dino peak isnt rare because 1 spiderman comic exists or 1 atari cartridge exists doesnt make any sense st all
But saying, "Wow, Little Samson is so rare" when 20000 copies exist, comared to one known South African version Soccer, is rediculous too. Print numbers to matter a lot, and I think what has been confirmed to exist should be implemented into a rarity scale. Rarity does not equate to value, but half the stuff that is passed off as rare on here is uncommon at best.
And you see little samsons online because its worth a fortune. You arent finding that shit in the wildWhebn people say little samson is "so rare" they are talking about nes games. If all the in the wild double dragons got listed thst gsme eould have 10s of thousands online in comparison but since its only worth 10 bucks people dont waste there time.
Only old fart collectors act like you. Too cool to call anything rare. Yes it is rare to stumble on a little samson.
who gives a shit anout a south africsn soccee no one knows exists in the collector community. Thats a variant. We are talking about nes retail games. Everyone knows stadium events is rarer than fluntstones so calling both rare diesnt matter.
Yes, old fart collector I am, for over fifteen years. That still doesn't change the merit in the words I wrote, however; take something like the game library for the Super A'can, for example. The games are easily worth $100+ each, some upwards to $300, but be damned if anyone can turn them up easily. I can't conjure that stuff up, despite it being developed and released on the small island on which I live (the state in which you live in is vastly larger than the island on which I live), yet still that shit just isn't found. It is truly rare - low production runs, etc. Little Samson may be worth more, and it might equally be hard to find in the wild, but it is still much easier to find Samson in the wild than some of the A'can games, and that is because Samson is just an over-hyped game with a smaller production run than most licensed NES games; but that is it. Just saying.
People might not give a shit about a South African region Soccer on NES, but in terms of rarity, is blows Samson out of the water, like it or not.
Again, not relative to an nes set.
Yes price obviously isnt a direct correlation with rarity. Everyone knows that. But if a games supply demand price point is at a thousand dollars , im pretty sure its rare relative to nes games. More than just an uncommon.
Comparing rare variants isnt relative to an nes set. Comparing comic definitions of rare production numbers to nes games isnt relative to an nes set.
Sorry about the typos. Phone nintendoage layout and reply quoting is a nightmare to use.
Yeah the gerber definitions are interesting but they are also 25 years old, done prior to the internet, proven to be wrong subsequently, and most importantly derived with golden age comics (1930s & 1940s) in mind. Totally apples and oranges. The original owners are mostly dead and the world supply is pretty well known. People will still be finding NES games in attics forty years from now; the total supply is not known.
That said words have meanings and rare should mean something specific. For me, that means SE and myriad and nothing else as far as retail NES games, because they are on a different level from everything else. Wish we had more concrete numbers on production but we don't.
Bringing up Myriad is interesting, it's the same as Caltron with a different label on top. Shouldn't they both be counted as the same, in terms of production numbers? Is it just the sticker on top that should be considered rare?
Well no.
Forget the fact as cartridges they are similar.
The whole package, as it hit retail, was very different. Unique box, unique manual.
Someone said that all NES games started off as sealed games. Yes they did. And you sure wouldn't confuse a sealed myriad with a sealed caltron. It is a unique release just the same as SE vs WCTM, or the different versions of pacman, or whatever. Those play similar or the same as well, but are distinct releases for the same reason.
We don't have good sales data from most games of the 80s and 90s so basing it off data that doesn't exist would be hard. To me, something rare requires at least some effort to seek out. If you can throw money at Ebay any given day, it's probably not a rare game.
Yeah what little data we have comes from
- nintendo's minimum order quantity, which I think Howard Philips said was 10,000 ? Its in one of his posts.
- the numbering on Myriads
- the numbering on NWCs.
- million seller variants.
that's about it I think
Just to confirm, i know for sure HP claims 10,000 minimum print run for NES in the ESPN Stadium Events article
We don't have good sales data from most games of the 80s and 90s so basing it off data that doesn't exist would be hard. To me, something rare requires at least some effort to seek out. If you can throw money at Ebay any given day, it's probably not a rare game.
Yeah what little data we have comes from
- nintendo's minimum order quantity, which I think Howard Philips said was 10,000 ? Its in one of his posts.
- the numbering on Myriads
- the numbering on NWCs.
- million seller variants.
that's about it I think
Just to confirm, i know for sure HP claims 10,000 minimum print run for NES in the ESPN Stadium Events article
I don't remember what NP issue it ran in, but there was definitely an article about the Dragon Warrior series that had world-wide sales numbers for each game, up to that point. (DW1, 2, and 3, in advance of the release of DW4)
Originally posted by: fcgamer
Originally posted by: Buyatari
Originally posted by: jonebone
Originally posted by: fcgamer
Originally posted by: jonebone
Originally posted by: Buyatari
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
There are plenty of Nintendo items thare would be Gerber 10, they just aren't retail carts. It would have to be specific variants, high end sealed, rare promo merchandise, etc.
And rare is relative, the holy grail of all baseball cards, the Wagner T206 shows as 31 graded copies on the PSA website. Doesn't include other graded brands (SGC, etc.), but may include resubs (i.e. someone who had a PSA11 and resubbed hoping for PSA 2 would show up as 2 of 31 copies). Even with the regrades, it's going to be above 5 confirmed.
I think we need to disregard things like sealed games here. Just about every (US) game started out as a sealed game, so from the orginal author's point of view, in regards to print runs and rarities, sealed just doesn't have anything to do with it. Now of course it could be assumed that games with smaller print runs would also have fewer sealed copies remaining. Also, technically sealed was retail. I guess the real question would be if the Gerber scale takes into account condition, or do all Stadium Events, for example (sealed or otherwise) equally count?
Well, when he mentions the Gerber scale as having "X or fewer known copies", I assume they are talking about confirmed copies known in collector's hands. Not number of copies produced because no manufacturing company is going to start a manufacturing line for less than 5 items.
With most games print runs aren't very important. What is important is how many survived today. Now there were some Atari games produced in very limited numbers. Red Sea Crossing etc were Gerber 9 or Gerber 10 games right out of the gate. With modern games where the vast majority of the print run is suspected to be surviving the print run is also important.
Originally posted by: fcgamer
While the Wally Bear in the AGCI case is (supposed to be) an earlier build, I have no idea the reason so many ignore the Chiller published by Share Data, complete with different label and everything. It would be on the list as a unique release, equal to Caltron vs Myriad, if I were making the list.
Not here to debate Wally Bear but that Wally Bear in the picture does not have an earlier build. Someone else owns a WallyBear prototype with no label that has an early build.
So that Wally Bear of yours is retail, no different from the AVE release? I don't like the fact that the label doesn't exactly fit the cart, but if it is retail code, it would be on my list for sure as well.
Yes the ROM is identical.
The label would fit if you glued it back down. The people who owned if before me opened it up. Not sure if they found it this way or it happened while they owned it.
There are many debates on this game if you want to search for them. Those against it counting as a game often pointed to no box ever found. Those who think it should count cite the article in USA Today the national newspaper that offered it for sale. The discussions lost a lot of steam after many collectors eliminated all unlicensed titles from a full system requirement.
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
There are plenty of Nintendo items thare would be Gerber 10, they just aren't retail carts. It would have to be specific variants, high end sealed, rare promo merchandise, etc.
And rare is relative, the holy grail of all baseball cards, the Wagner T206 shows as 31 graded copies on the PSA website. Doesn't include other graded brands (SGC, etc.), but may include resubs (i.e. someone who had a PSA11 and resubbed hoping for PSA 2 would show up as 2 of 31 copies). Even with the regrades, it's going to be above 5 confirmed.
I think we need to disregard things like sealed games here. Just about every (US) game started out as a sealed game, so from the orginal author's point of view, in regards to print runs and rarities, sealed just doesn't have anything to do with it. Now of course it could be assumed that games with smaller print runs would also have fewer sealed copies remaining. Also, technically sealed was retail. I guess the real question would be if the Gerber scale takes into account condition, or do all Stadium Events, for example (sealed or otherwise) equally count?
Well, when he mentions the Gerber scale as having "X or fewer known copies", I assume they are talking about confirmed copies known in collector's hands. Not number of copies produced because no manufacturing company is going to start a manufacturing line for less than 5 items.
With most games print runs aren't very important. What is important is how many survived today. Now there were some Atari games produced in very limited numbers. Red Sea Crossing etc were Gerber 9 or Gerber 10 games right out of the gate. With modern games where the vast majority of the print run is suspected to be surviving the print run is also important.
While the Wally Bear in the AGCI case is (supposed to be) an earlier build, I have no idea the reason so many ignore the Chiller published by Share Data, complete with different label and everything. It would be on the list as a unique release, equal to Caltron vs Myriad, if I were making the list.
Not here to debate Wally Bear but that Wally Bear in the picture does not have an earlier build. Someone else owns a WallyBear prototype with no label that has an early build.
So that Wally Bear of yours is retail, no different from the AVE release? I don't like the fact that the label doesn't exactly fit the cart, but if it is retail code, it would be on my list for sure as well.
Yes the ROM is identical.
The label would fit if you glued it back down. The people who owned if before me opened it up. Not sure if they found it this way or it happened while they owned it.
There are many debates on this game if you want to search for them. Those against it counting as a game often pointed to no box ever found. Those who think it should count cite the article in USA Today the national newspaper that offered it for sale. The discussions lost a lot of steam after many collectors eliminated all unlicensed titles from a full system requirement.
Lol on that last sentence, so true. Regarding the cart, I feel it should count, I have seen a lot of instances with stuff like this, no box / manual = doesn't count shouldn't be the deciding factor. About the label, I just thought it looked undersized for the cart, but I just checked, and the other AGCI releases are the same, so my last observation / concern was faulty memory more than anything.
Comics has what is called the Gerber scale for the super rare.
Gerber 8 is no more than 20 known copies
Gerber 9 is no more than 10 known copies
Gerber 10 is 5 or fewer known copies.
You have to go over to Atari collecting to use anything close to this sort of scale.
As much as collectors would like to think Nintendo games are rare they really aren't when compared to other hobbies.
I really wanted to make a joke about baby food, but this is super interesting. Is there any "production" game from nintendo that would even be a Gerber 8 or higher? I guess the NWC gold is a Gerber 7. The only other thing I can think of outside of the Atari carts are Kizuna Encounter and NBA Elite 11. Also, I'm sure fcgamer could chime in with some Chinese bootlegs, but not as many collectors are into those.
Yes, Mahjong.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
But nes collecting is cancerous anyway.
why would anyone want the sachens and the like to be included in the fullset? A fullset is anyway a completly arbitrary definition that is put by a community. One can have a different definition, it's personnal. I find the NA one absolute garbage but if the community is happy with it so be it.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
But nes collecting is cancerous anyway.
Milmar was not designed nor distributed for US distribution, neither was the NTDEC stuff, and the Whirlwind Manu stuff was pirated, so all of that stuff would not proper belong on a full set list of US games. But it has been proved that the Sachens did have some (limited) distribution back in the States, back in the day, and then at the end everyone started importing and distributing the damn games themselves, to US collectors. They should be on the list, but they were denied on most people's lists due to rarity, price, shitiness, and not wanting their fullsets to become not full
But as stated, a fullset is a complete arbitrary thing. People will go for a black box one, a famicom one w/o fds, a first party one, etc. There's no standard definition of it, if people want to follow one definition of it for reasons it's their damn choice? I don't get at all what you're trying to do in fact? Make sachen collecting as much cancerous as nes collecting is?
People are already retarded enough to just buy huge insect of them all because it's $$$$$ RARE $$$$$ so they can blow their trumpets on NA for days and butter themselves while they don't give a single fuck about sachen. j u s t g r e a t
Can we avoid such idiotic behavior to spread?
Most cheap/common Japanese exclusives would be considered "rare" if their exact numbers were distributed worldwide instead. They are niche enough to the rest of the world that demand doesn't do this and everyone knows where they can get it if they want.
Yeah milmar wasn't but you get my point. as for ntdec, there has been ntdec cartridges sold in the USA but they were so poorly distributed they are just unseen now.
But as stated, a fullset is a complete arbitrary thing. People will go for a black box one, a famicom one w/o fds, a first party one, etc. There's no standard definition of it, if people want to follow one definition of it for reasons it's their damn choice? I don't get at all what you're trying to do in fact? Make sachen collecting as much cancerous as nes collecting is?
People are already retarded enough to just buy huge insect of them all because it's $$$$$ RARE $$$$$ so they can blow their trumpets on NA for days and butter themselves while they don't give a single fuck about sachen. j u s t g r e a t
Can we avoid such idiotic behavior to spread?
Why are you personally so concerned about whether the Sachen games stay niche or become more widely accepted? I think something like Huge Insect warrents a price like it has, given its background story and so few copies made.
Fullset back in the day was licensed + unlicensed, all of them, and only in more recent times have the concepts and definitions changed, a partial product of rising prices.
My point is, most of those NTDEC games weren't designed for distribution solely in America, a few Famicom pcbs + Famicom labels + Famicom to NES converters in a NES case + a generic box does not equate to the same situation as Sachen, i.e. carts with 72 pin boards, manuals, custom boxes, etc. Sure there were generic boxes later, but at first not that way. If the games were cheap and easily obtainable, there would be less resistance towards them.
Getting back to the original conversation:
While regional rarity may and can exist (someone mentioned something about Japanese games), I think we need to look at rarity within the regions, but also as a whole determined by production numbers. An example would be Korean NES games: talk to anyone living in Korea, and the same story is always told, how those games are so hard to find, even in the region. From a logical standpoint, of course Korean-branded NES games are going to be much lower in production numbers than an American release. Sure, the difficulty level may or may not be exaggerated slightly to help up demand and make sales, but the stuff certainly isn't common by any means, and I think we all could agree to that.
I collect obscure stuff, for the fact that it is indeed truely rare, some of it possibly almost reaching the one - of - a - kind level. People also mention about how initial production runs don't matter, since items get destroyed, broken, lost, etc over the years. Well, it also happens with those obscure items, the exact same thing occurs. So I think that sort of argument isn't a very good one.
In my opinion, rarity should be examined for what it is, namely how much of something exists. NWC carts are rare, Indonesian version Crusin USA's are rare, Little Samsons honestly not so much, imo.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
so why do they count EVERYTHING for Atari, but not NES? Yes, the Atari set is next to impossible, but they still count the items, and people still collect it
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
so why do they count EVERYTHING for Atari, but not NES? Yes, the Atari set is next to impossible, but they still count the items, and people still collect it
Correct. Perhaps that is why I have a strong opinion. When I first started collecting videogames Atari had a near complete list but NES was still being sold at retail stores.
The Atari list is done with a historian's perspective of completeness and I expected to see the same with the NES list.
If you'd include the sachen's, you'd need then include the milmar, whirlwind manu, ntdec, etc. all the stuff that got tiny shady distribution in the US back then, making the thing undoable, pretty much.
THAT is why they are not "counted"
A list of every game that was available in the US during the lifespan of the system should be just that. Scientists catalog all the different dinosaurs and they aren't concerned with collectors and/or musuems. When a new dinosaur species from a certain period in time is discovered, they add it to the list. These NES lists that we see now are collector driven like the baseball HOF. Some should be in but aren't and some are in that shouldn't be but popular vote determines the list and once a decision is made it is final and no changes are made.
I've long given up on trying to change people over from the current collector's perspective to a historian's perspective but at least people should see it for what it is.
so why do they count EVERYTHING for Atari, but not NES? Yes, the Atari set is next to impossible, but they still count the items, and people still collect it
Correct. Perhaps that is why I have a strong opinion. When I first started collecting videogames Atari had a near complete list but NES was still being sold at retail stores.
The Atari list is done with a historian's perspective of completeness and I expected to see the same with the NES list.
agreed.