ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units and at that level there would be no fee for non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
Maybe, but I still doubt it that is the FCS in Japan
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
if you're the factory are you going to spend the money to make 100,000 all at once? you'd have to be an idiot. you make and ship in smaller chunks as demand warranted. 100k total? sure if the game had lived that long, but it didn't.
First of all, by 1987 there were several million NESs already in North American homes. Plus, the NES had a few year headstart in Japan and they could extrapolate the sales figures from that market and apply it to future North America sales.
Second, that's not how manufacturing works. Smaller production runs are infinitely more expensive because the cost of retooling an entire factory with each change in product. There is a threshold that must be reached before it becomes profitable - hence a minimum order.
but I find it hard to believe it's actually as rare as people think.
I agree but just think about how common most other titles are then. and that is pretty much why I collect sealed. opened stuff there is just an inexhaustible supply on most games it feels more special to me if its a little harder to get. kind of like the super hot girl in school
I dunno, that girl was always WAY out of my league...
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units and at that level there would be no fee for non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
Maybe, but I still doubt it that is the FCS in Japan
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
Nobody said 100K were shipped to retailers, they likely had some ready to go to fill future orders as well. The ones that didn't go to the retailers would've been resold to Nintendo when they bought the rights to the game. As for needing a pricey peripheral to play it, what about shit like Stack Up? The game would need to be readily available for those that want it (I tried to think of a better example, but mainstream accessories for the NES that had to be bought separately and were required for various games are eluding me...).
See I dunno about that. It may well have been required for them to buy 100k copies minimum per title, but I find it hard to believe that 100k was needed per production run. Let's say there is demand for 150k copies. Are you seriously telling me that if I buy 100k copies and then decide I want 150k, I have to leave 50k x $20 = $1m profit on the table because you can only do it in 100k chunks. Please. The minimum order quantity thing I totally believe but no way did you have to buy them all at once IMO
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units and at that level there would be no fee for non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
Maybe, but I still doubt it that is the FCS in Japan
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
if you're the factory are you going to spend the money to make 100,000 all at once? you'd have to be an idiot. you make and ship in smaller chunks as demand warranted. 100k total? sure if the game had lived that long, but it didn't.
Second, that's not how manufacturing works. Smaller production runs are infinitely more expensive because the cost of retooling an entire factory with each change in product. There is a threshold that must be reached before it becomes profitable - hence a minimum order.
I know that. but 100k is a lot I just don't buy that as a discrete order minimum. as a title minimum yes.
That's why it would pay to do market research, etc. If there's a possibility that you may want to run 150k and minimum orders are at 100k, you better pay somebody to figure out if you can sell 150k. Remember it's not done in 100k increments, just a minimum of 100k. In theory, you could order 101k if you like, you just better make sure you have enough before they're done making them or else you're stuck ordering an additional 100k.
but I find it hard to believe it's actually as rare as people think.
I agree but just think about how common most other titles are then. and that is pretty much why I collect sealed. opened stuff there is just an inexhaustible supply on most games it feels more special to me if its a little harder to get. kind of like the super hot girl in school
I dunno, that girl was always WAY out of my league...
so you're saying you collect loose girls? Shit that sounds like fun!! lol
and no they weren't in my league either just once in a very blue moon.
but I find it hard to believe it's actually as rare as people think.
I agree but just think about how common most other titles are then. and that is pretty much why I collect sealed. opened stuff there is just an inexhaustible supply on most games it feels more special to me if its a little harder to get. kind of like the super hot girl in school
I dunno, that girl was always WAY out of my league...
so you're saying you collect loose girls? Shit that sounds like fun!! lol
and no they weren't in my league either just once in a very blue moon.
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units and at that level there would be no fee for non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
Maybe, but I still doubt it that is the FCS in Japan
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
if you're the factory are you going to spend the money to make 100,000 all at once? you'd have to be an idiot. you make and ship in smaller chunks as demand warranted. 100k total? sure if the game had lived that long, but it didn't.
Second, that's not how manufacturing works. Smaller production runs are infinitely more expensive because the cost of retooling an entire factory with each change in product. There is a threshold that must be reached before it becomes profitable - hence a minimum order.
I know that. but 100k is a lot I just don't buy that as a discrete order minimum. as a title minimum yes.
I don't think you're thinking on a continental scale when it comes to manufacturing products. 100k is actually a relatively small order.
That's why it would pay to do market research, etc. If there's a possibility that you may want to run 150k and minimum orders are at 100k, you better pay somebody to figure out if you can sell 150k. Remember it's not done in 100k increments, just a minimum of 100k. In theory, you could order 101k if you like, you just better make sure you have enough before they're done making them or else you're stuck ordering an additional 100k.
I understand that, that's why I explicitly said what I did in my example. I dunno ultimately the way that the quote you provided is written I don't think it proves anything either way and we're left with the same old conjecture
That's why it would pay to do market research, etc. If there's a possibility that you may want to run 150k and minimum orders are at 100k, you better pay somebody to figure out if you can sell 150k. Remember it's not done in 100k increments, just a minimum of 100k. In theory, you could order 101k if you like, you just better make sure you have enough before they're done making them or else you're stuck ordering an additional 100k.
I understand that, that's why I explicitly said what I did in my example. I dunno ultimately the way that the quote you provided is written I don't think it proves anything either way and we're left with the same old conjecture
I dunno, maybe I'm not following what you're thinking. I did link some paperwork that spells out exactly what Nintendo required for a company to order a production run of a title for the NES. It even gave prices per unit. I dunno what else you'd be looking for.
I think Nintendo also tried to establish that an order of that size would keep the amount of crap games to a minimum. In other words, a studio could no longer afford to just throw out shovelware for the NES - something Atari failed at miserably.
Though it still doesn't answer the real question: Does Stadium Events really exist?
That link to the Atari memo is pretty cool - funny to see Atari negotiating w/ Nintendo when you know that 5 years later they will pull a ruse and stab Nintendo in the back, take them to court, get taken to court, etc. I'm not sure how they arrived at the 100,000 figure in that negotiation but I checked my copy of Game Over and confirmed that the minimum cartridge order in N's standard licensing agreement is 10,000.
Game Over, p. 214 (excerpt): "In addition to the security system, Arakawa wanted a contract similar to NCL's to control licensees... The plan had Nintendo evaluating every game and giving it a rating on the 40 point scale. Licensees then would place an order for at least 10,000 cartridges."
So, Bandai must've had Nintendo produce at least 10,000 cartridges. Whether all of those were distributed to retailers, whether Bandai ordered more than 10k, or how many were pulled back / recycled / whatever is anyone's guess.
It's now common. 5 last month = common. I think it's just a crapy sports game that I already have in my Mario/Duck Hunt/Trackmeet cart. You keep telling yourself it's cool!
That link to the Atari memo is pretty cool - funny to see Atari negotiating w/ Nintendo when you know that 5 years later they will pull a ruse and stab Nintendo in the back, take them to court, get taken to court, etc. I'm not sure how they arrived at the 100,000 figure in that negotiation but I checked my copy of Game Over and confirmed that the minimum cartridge order in N's standard licensing agreement is 10,000.
Game Over, p. 214 (excerpt): "In addition to the security system, Arakawa wanted a contract similar to NCL's to control licensees... The plan had Nintendo evaluating every game and giving it a rating on the 40 point scale. Licensees then would place an order for at least 10,000 cartridges."
So, Bandai must've had Nintendo produce at least 10,000 cartridges. Whether all of those were distributed to retailers, whether Bandai ordered more than 10k, or how many were pulled back / recycled / whatever is anyone's guess.
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like 2 things could be going on with that Atari memo then, if 10k is indeed their normal production run:
1) 100k isn't uncommon for a run at launch time to ensure everybody that buys a system can have games.
2) that's the polite, Japanese way of saying "fuck you" to Atari.
What is going on here with the "guessing" and tossing out speculative numbers is no better than the rumors already out there.
No one know what type of agreements happened during the purchase of the Family Fitness rights, no one knows when or how production stopped or how many were produced or were initially agreed to be produced, or how many of the actual product shipped or how many sold.
Stadium Events for example was sold in Europe and Japan, who knows if Bandai had a worldwide distribution agreement for production that controlled the entire marketplace and not just the US.
Someone should contact the Bandai PR department again and try to get an interview about the ebay auctions, yahoo and news articles and internet buzz. It is already awesome press for them and maybe they have no idea its even happening. Maybe using the publicity as a catalyst someone at Bandai might actually have the gumption to dig up some actual information. Probably having some press credentials may help.
What is going on here with the "guessing" and tossing out speculative numbers is no better than the rumors already out there.
No one know what type of agreements happened during the purchase of the Family Fitness rights, no one knows when or how production stopped or how many were produced or were initially agreed to be produced, or how many of the actual product shipped or how many sold.
Stadium Events for example was sold in Europe and Japan, who knows if Bandai had a worldwide distribution agreement for production that controlled the entire marketplace and not just the US.
Someone should contact the Bandai PR department again and try to get an interview about the ebay auctions, yahoo and news articles and internet buzz. It is already awesome press for them and maybe they have no idea its even happening. Maybe using the publicity as a catalyst someone at Bandai might actually have the gumption to dig up some actual information. Probably having some press credentials may help.
Bandai's PR circa 1987 was an external agency, Ruder Finn. I already had a very awkward conversation with the woman who was handling Stadium Events, she just said "that was a long time ago" over and over and doesn't seem to recall anything other than Bandai was "a Japanese company, right?"
Modern day Namco-Bandai I'm sure has paperwork somewhere, but I doubt it's accessible. This sort of information usually just gets tossed into off-site storage in case the lawyers need it.
The thing is, why not? You're releasing a new accessory (the FFF pad), and it comes with a game. It makes sense to release it with another game designed for it (Stadium Events). Think about it - ROB was released with the system, and had Gyromite packed in. Nintendo made sure there was another game on the market that utilized it (Stack Up) pretty quickly after it was released. The difference is, ROB flopped, while the FFF/Power Pad ended up doing well enough to have multiple games released after the fact. Same as the Zapper - Duck Hunt was available, but the Zapper likely would've died fast if nothing else was available pretty much right away for those that liked it.
Actually I'm pretty sure they were released at separate times. chronotriggafoo's press copy of Athletic World has a release dated February 9, 1987, while the press release I have announcing that Stadium Events was "recently released" is dated November 30.
Well that implies that Athletic World (and the FFF pad) sold well enough to justify a second compatable title. Even if only half the FFF pad owners snagged a Stadium Events, that's alot of copies out there to be had.
One thing that I noticed in that Memo was that at 100,000 Nintendo would not charge a fee for programming/engineering... that to me means that if you wanted it cheap you had to get 100K. if not you had to pay more in fees to Nintendo to get them to put your game on the carts.. Also we have no clue as to if things like Test Runs or things like that were negociated and given that BanDai was the 3rd largest Aftermarket company as stated earlier they might have had more leverage to do these short test runs of product. Given this possibility there would be NO way of figuring out how many were made without BanDai or Nintendo officially releasing numbers as Nintendo of course knows how man base cartridges were sold to BanDai for that particular game. I would venture to say that for a title like this a minimum amount were made to test the market, with a commitment to ramp up production if sales were at a certain level, but, in the meantime as everyone knows Nintendo had their own plans for the game.
But lets do a small calculation say we take four large retailers and say they have 250 stores each across the country, They order initially order 25 copies per store. Right there you are at 25K copies so 100K copies is not really out of question.. as these days these retailers could be WalMart, Target, TRU, and BestBuy.. Granted I don't know how many large chains there were in 1987 but there were a few like Woolworths, Sears, Montgomery Ward, TRU, ect.. that probably had at least 100 stores each.
Oh also what no one has mentioned is that it was not exclusive to Woolworths or the northeast as the one that sold for 44K was out of some store in Kansas that was not Woolworths. It was in the listing...
Okay as the starter of this thread many months before the SE craziness happened, I suppose it's time I jump back in here!
First off, I really appreciate everyones intelligent debate in this thread...I honestly started it to educate myself and to hopefully dig up some answers for the Nintendo community, I seriously didn't think we'd turn up much but a lot has transpired since this started.
So first off I think we can 100% put to rest the rumor about Woolworths/North East region junk, multiple sales including two "sealed" the one legit seal and the Craigslist copy that MRN ended up with, both had stickers not from Woolworth's, it's been found all over the country. I know this isn't overwhelming evidence or anything but enough for me to be confident in saying there's no way this thing was only sold in that store/region.
As far as production number/recall goes: this is where things become interesting.
Really interesting info that's been dug up recently about order numbers. My thought is that because SE required the buyer to already own the FFF mat I can say that it was probably reasonable on Bandai's part to create the absolute minimum production run. Even half that number in fact just for the sake of argument here. Just based on what we what currently know that would still put us at 5000 for a cart run (which I'm nearly positive is a grossly underestimated number) Even if that 5k counted as the global production run, this game isn't exactly SMB/DH common in PAL form either, so say that maybe only 1k made it to the US/NTSC...There is still NO WAY that some 23 years later we still wouldn't have even located a hundred copies total as a collector base. Because of this info at one point I thought it may even be reasonable to assume that this game wasn't officially released, and may have been some strange prototype item or something, and the only thing keeping my faith in it's legitimate release was that it appeared on the official Nintendo games list.
In light of the fact that two expensive sales occurred back to back changed my opinion of this quickly though as it has now created a (small) influx of them to show up on ebay. I see this as a good sign to point in the direction there are still a lot of them out there. I realize that it seems like the Yahoo news story was big headlines to us because we follow all things NES but that was likely a small blip on the radar as far as news concerning the general public goes, and even still look at the amount of copies that surfaced as a result of just that little bit of news coverage. Imagine if this made national headlines for just one day, if every newspaper and TV outlet had a feature on it...we'd probably have a hundred copies by the end of the day.
I don't have any hard numbers to contribute yet (though it's certainly not from a lack of trying to obtain them) but the whole story still doesn't add up. If this recent wave of popularity keeps up, I very strongly believe copies of this game will be available for under $300 within a few years. Because suppose that even 200 copies total show up. I think even with as many casual NES fans as there are, and even with how many members this site has you would have a very difficult time finding 200 people that would instantly drop $300 on an NES game. I think this thing is just a difficult case of supply and demand. The demand has only been raised due to the lack of supply, but as soon as they start showing up by the caseload I suspect the demand would drop crazy fast.
^Maybe the price will go down, but no way it will be available for $300, unless someone find a lot of sealed ones. Flintstones isn't really THAT rare, and still fetch good money ; Little Samson and Caltron too.
Comments
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for
the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and
tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB
Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity
required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units
and at that level there would be no fee for
non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
source: http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/atari-nintendo-deal.htm
So my 50k minimum estimate was off by half!
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
if you're the factory are you going to spend the money to make 100,000 all at once? you'd have to be an idiot. you make and ship in smaller chunks as demand warranted. 100k total? sure if the game had lived that long, but it didn't.
First of all, by 1987 there were several million NESs already in North American homes. Plus, the NES had a few year headstart in Japan and they could extrapolate the sales figures from that market and apply it to future North America sales.
but I find it hard to believe it's actually as rare as people think.
I agree but just think about how common most other titles are then. and that is pretty much why I collect sealed. opened stuff there is just an inexhaustible supply on most games it feels more special to me if its a little harder to get. kind of like the super hot girl in school
I dunno, that girl was always WAY out of my league...
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for
the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and
tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB
Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity
required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units
and at that level there would be no fee for
non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
source: http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/atari-nintendo-deal.htm
So my 50k minimum estimate was off by half!
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
Nobody said 100K were shipped to retailers, they likely had some ready to go to fill future orders as well. The ones that didn't go to the retailers would've been resold to Nintendo when they bought the rights to the game. As for needing a pricey peripheral to play it, what about shit like Stack Up? The game would need to be readily available for those that want it (I tried to think of a better example, but mainstream accessories for the NES that had to be bought separately and were required for various games are eluding me...).
See I dunno about that. It may well have been required for them to buy 100k copies minimum per title, but I find it hard to believe that 100k was needed per production run. Let's say there is demand for 150k copies. Are you seriously telling me that if I buy 100k copies and then decide I want 150k, I have to leave 50k x $20 = $1m profit on the table because you can only do it in 100k chunks. Please. The minimum order quantity thing I totally believe but no way did you have to buy them all at once IMO
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for
the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and
tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB
Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity
required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units
and at that level there would be no fee for
non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
source: http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/atari-nintendo-deal.htm
So my 50k minimum estimate was off by half!
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
if you're the factory are you going to spend the money to make 100,000 all at once? you'd have to be an idiot. you make and ship in smaller chunks as demand warranted. 100k total? sure if the game had lived that long, but it didn't.
I know that. but 100k is a lot I just don't buy that as a discrete order minimum. as a title minimum yes.
That's why it would pay to do market research, etc. If there's a possibility that you may want to run 150k and minimum orders are at 100k, you better pay somebody to figure out if you can sell 150k. Remember it's not done in 100k increments, just a minimum of 100k. In theory, you could order 101k if you like, you just better make sure you have enough before they're done making them or else you're stuck ordering an additional 100k.
but I find it hard to believe it's actually as rare as people think.
I agree but just think about how common most other titles are then. and that is pretty much why I collect sealed. opened stuff there is just an inexhaustible supply on most games it feels more special to me if its a little harder to get. kind of like the super hot girl in school
I dunno, that girl was always WAY out of my league...
so you're saying you collect loose girls? Shit that sounds like fun!! lol
and no they weren't in my league either just once in a very blue moon.
but I find it hard to believe it's actually as rare as people think.
I agree but just think about how common most other titles are then. and that is pretty much why I collect sealed. opened stuff there is just an inexhaustible supply on most games it feels more special to me if its a little harder to get. kind of like the super hot girl in school
I dunno, that girl was always WAY out of my league...
so you're saying you collect loose girls? Shit that sounds like fun!! lol
and no they weren't in my league either just once in a very blue moon.
No, but they tend to be well used
ok, got the direct quote on number of minimum production run from Nintendo:
5. that Nintendo would program titles of our choice for
the FCS system and would sell us the assembled and
tested, unlabeled ROM carts at 1,500 Yen each FOB
Japan for retail sale by Atari. The minimum quantity
required by Nintendo per title would be 100,000 units
and at that level there would be no fee for
non-recurring engineering/programming expenses.
source: http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/atari-nintendo-deal.htm
So my 50k minimum estimate was off by half!
If you read the entire memo, it's about North America production runs for the (yet to be named) NES.
Thinking about it, Nintendo did go in pretty ballsy, going against industry analysts and releasing the system in North America in the first place.
And we are talking MINIMUM production runs. If you think about it - how many NESs were produced? Millions. 100k copies of a title is pretty small (almost non-existent in marketplace terms) compared to how many consoles were out there in North America.
I will concede defeat, but if they were not recalled where the frick did a 100,000 copies go
I don't think there's any way 100k were made. a) there weren't all that many NES's out yet, this was pre xmas 87. the nes had really only been out nationwide for one xmas season (86).
and you needed a completely separate and pricey peripheral to play the game at all. And those that bought the peripheral in the first place got a game packed in with it in the first place.
if you're the factory are you going to spend the money to make 100,000 all at once? you'd have to be an idiot. you make and ship in smaller chunks as demand warranted. 100k total? sure if the game had lived that long, but it didn't.
I know that. but 100k is a lot I just don't buy that as a discrete order minimum. as a title minimum yes.
I don't think you're thinking on a continental scale when it comes to manufacturing products. 100k is actually a relatively small order.
@Bronty
That's why it would pay to do market research, etc. If there's a possibility that you may want to run 150k and minimum orders are at 100k, you better pay somebody to figure out if you can sell 150k. Remember it's not done in 100k increments, just a minimum of 100k. In theory, you could order 101k if you like, you just better make sure you have enough before they're done making them or else you're stuck ordering an additional 100k.
I understand that, that's why I explicitly said what I did in my example. I dunno ultimately the way that the quote you provided is written I don't think it proves anything either way and we're left with the same old conjecture
@Bronty
That's why it would pay to do market research, etc. If there's a possibility that you may want to run 150k and minimum orders are at 100k, you better pay somebody to figure out if you can sell 150k. Remember it's not done in 100k increments, just a minimum of 100k. In theory, you could order 101k if you like, you just better make sure you have enough before they're done making them or else you're stuck ordering an additional 100k.
I understand that, that's why I explicitly said what I did in my example. I dunno ultimately the way that the quote you provided is written I don't think it proves anything either way and we're left with the same old conjecture
I dunno, maybe I'm not following what you're thinking. I did link some paperwork that spells out exactly what Nintendo required for a company to order a production run of a title for the NES. It even gave prices per unit. I dunno what else you'd be looking for.
I'm not sure how they arrived at the 100,000 figure in that negotiation but I checked my copy of Game Over and confirmed that the minimum cartridge order in N's standard licensing agreement is 10,000.
Game Over, p. 214 (excerpt):
"In addition to the security system, Arakawa wanted a contract similar to NCL's to control licensees... The plan had Nintendo evaluating every game and giving it a rating on the 40 point scale. Licensees then would place an order for at least 10,000 cartridges."
So, Bandai must've had Nintendo produce at least 10,000 cartridges. Whether all of those were distributed to retailers, whether Bandai ordered more than 10k, or how many were pulled back / recycled / whatever is anyone's guess.
That link to the Atari memo is pretty cool - funny to see Atari negotiating w/ Nintendo when you know that 5 years later they will pull a ruse and stab Nintendo in the back, take them to court, get taken to court, etc.
I'm not sure how they arrived at the 100,000 figure in that negotiation but I checked my copy of Game Over and confirmed that the minimum cartridge order in N's standard licensing agreement is 10,000.
Game Over, p. 214 (excerpt):
"In addition to the security system, Arakawa wanted a contract similar to NCL's to control licensees... The plan had Nintendo evaluating every game and giving it a rating on the 40 point scale. Licensees then would place an order for at least 10,000 cartridges."
So, Bandai must've had Nintendo produce at least 10,000 cartridges. Whether all of those were distributed to retailers, whether Bandai ordered more than 10k, or how many were pulled back / recycled / whatever is anyone's guess.
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like 2 things could be going on with that Atari memo then, if 10k is indeed their normal production run:
No one know what type of agreements happened during the purchase of the Family Fitness rights, no one knows when or how production stopped or how many were produced or were initially agreed to be produced, or how many of the actual product shipped or how many sold.
Stadium Events for example was sold in Europe and Japan, who knows if Bandai had a worldwide distribution agreement for production that controlled the entire marketplace and not just the US.
Someone should contact the Bandai PR department again and try to get an interview about the ebay auctions, yahoo and news articles and internet buzz. It is already awesome press for them and maybe they have no idea its even happening. Maybe using the publicity as a catalyst someone at Bandai might actually have the gumption to dig up some actual information. Probably having some press credentials may help.
What is going on here with the "guessing" and tossing out speculative numbers is no better than the rumors already out there.
No one know what type of agreements happened during the purchase of the Family Fitness rights, no one knows when or how production stopped or how many were produced or were initially agreed to be produced, or how many of the actual product shipped or how many sold.
Stadium Events for example was sold in Europe and Japan, who knows if Bandai had a worldwide distribution agreement for production that controlled the entire marketplace and not just the US.
Someone should contact the Bandai PR department again and try to get an interview about the ebay auctions, yahoo and news articles and internet buzz. It is already awesome press for them and maybe they have no idea its even happening. Maybe using the publicity as a catalyst someone at Bandai might actually have the gumption to dig up some actual information. Probably having some press credentials may help.
Bandai's PR circa 1987 was an external agency, Ruder Finn. I already had a very awkward conversation with the woman who was handling Stadium Events, she just said "that was a long time ago" over and over and doesn't seem to recall anything other than Bandai was "a Japanese company, right?"
Modern day Namco-Bandai I'm sure has paperwork somewhere, but I doubt it's accessible. This sort of information usually just gets tossed into off-site storage in case the lawyers need it.
The thing is, why not? You're releasing a new accessory (the FFF pad), and it comes with a game. It makes sense to release it with another game designed for it (Stadium Events). Think about it - ROB was released with the system, and had Gyromite packed in. Nintendo made sure there was another game on the market that utilized it (Stack Up) pretty quickly after it was released. The difference is, ROB flopped, while the FFF/Power Pad ended up doing well enough to have multiple games released after the fact. Same as the Zapper - Duck Hunt was available, but the Zapper likely would've died fast if nothing else was available pretty much right away for those that liked it.
Actually I'm pretty sure they were released at separate times. chronotriggafoo's press copy of Athletic World has a release dated February 9, 1987, while the press release I have announcing that Stadium Events was "recently released" is dated November 30.
But lets do a small calculation say we take four large retailers and say they have 250 stores each across the country, They order initially order 25 copies per store. Right there you are at 25K copies so 100K copies is not really out of question.. as these days these retailers could be WalMart, Target, TRU, and BestBuy.. Granted I don't know how many large chains there were in 1987 but there were a few like Woolworths, Sears, Montgomery Ward, TRU, ect.. that probably had at least 100 stores each.
First off, I really appreciate everyones intelligent debate in this thread...I honestly started it to educate myself and to hopefully dig up some answers for the Nintendo community, I seriously didn't think we'd turn up much but a lot has transpired since this started.
So first off I think we can 100% put to rest the rumor about Woolworths/North East region junk, multiple sales including two "sealed" the one legit seal and the Craigslist copy that MRN ended up with, both had stickers not from Woolworth's, it's been found all over the country. I know this isn't overwhelming evidence or anything but enough for me to be confident in saying there's no way this thing was only sold in that store/region.
As far as production number/recall goes: this is where things become interesting.
Really interesting info that's been dug up recently about order numbers. My thought is that because SE required the buyer to already own the FFF mat I can say that it was probably reasonable on Bandai's part to create the absolute minimum production run. Even half that number in fact just for the sake of argument here. Just based on what we what currently know that would still put us at 5000 for a cart run (which I'm nearly positive is a grossly underestimated number) Even if that 5k counted as the global production run, this game isn't exactly SMB/DH common in PAL form either, so say that maybe only 1k made it to the US/NTSC...There is still NO WAY that some 23 years later we still wouldn't have even located a hundred copies total as a collector base. Because of this info at one point I thought it may even be reasonable to assume that this game wasn't officially released, and may have been some strange prototype item or something, and the only thing keeping my faith in it's legitimate release was that it appeared on the official Nintendo games list.
In light of the fact that two expensive sales occurred back to back changed my opinion of this quickly though as it has now created a (small) influx of them to show up on ebay. I see this as a good sign to point in the direction there are still a lot of them out there. I realize that it seems like the Yahoo news story was big headlines to us because we follow all things NES but that was likely a small blip on the radar as far as news concerning the general public goes, and even still look at the amount of copies that surfaced as a result of just that little bit of news coverage. Imagine if this made national headlines for just one day, if every newspaper and TV outlet had a feature on it...we'd probably have a hundred copies by the end of the day.
I don't have any hard numbers to contribute yet (though it's certainly not from a lack of trying to obtain them) but the whole story still doesn't add up. If this recent wave of popularity keeps up, I very strongly believe copies of this game will be available for under $300 within a few years. Because suppose that even 200 copies total show up. I think even with as many casual NES fans as there are, and even with how many members this site has you would have a very difficult time finding 200 people that would instantly drop $300 on an NES game. I think this thing is just a difficult case of supply and demand. The demand has only been raised due to the lack of supply, but as soon as they start showing up by the caseload I suspect the demand would drop crazy fast.