As other's have said, qix doesn't really pull his punches. He is usually right, too (although he said I have an ego, which I guess I don't agree with [is that egotistical right there? {Damnit, this is all too confusing!}]). I wouldn't really call him abrasive, just more like "brutally honest". If any thread needs "brutal honesty" oversight, it's the HoS. I mean, re-read the thread. When he tells people to knock off their complaining, it often occurs in short order with the members involved. Not to mention, outside of the HoS, Josh is a very cool guy and contributes very helpfully to the community. Even though he gave me a smack for my comments in the HoS thread, I still felt comfortable enough to PM him some questions I had about a topic I know he has a lot of knowledge about. He has my respect enough for me to see through his occasional brutality, and it isn't because of his badge. I like all the mods around here, but Josh is the best man for the job in moderating the HoS.
I agree with you Jonas. +/- system would be great. Also, if something is really screwed up in a transaction and you are afraid of getting retalitory feedback if you post a negative/neutral, don't worry, we can always investigate and do have the power to remove stuff like that.
I personally think any post in the thread that does not pertain to a specific event in the HoS should be deleted and the thread should remain clean and tidy
Real life is not clean and tidy. Issues are rarely black or white. Off-topic discussion is good, even if some deem it pointless. The way the thread runs now is fine - it allows others who have gotten bent over to realize they're not alone and to potentially work out problems that otherwise may not resolve.
I would change the HoS icon into:
HoS: This is the icon as it is now. You only get it if you directly cause the loss of money to another member. It stays forever. Get a Dumbass icon or another HoS infraction while already having a HoS icon and you are banned.
I'm A Dumbass: Slow shipment, bid retractions, late payments, bad service, etc. These stay for 2 weeks and then go away. Three of these and you get slapped with a HoS icon. Stack more than 3 at once, you get a HoS icon right away.
Can someone make a donkey icon? Either way I would have stacked 3 and got the dot...Too many people are trying to run from the dot. If you got it you DESERVE IT!! Get over it. It sure as hell makes people clean up their act. I should know
I agree with you Jonas. +/- system would be great. Also, if something is really screwed up in a transaction and you are afraid of getting retalitory feedback if you post a negative/neutral, don't worry, we can always investigate and do have the power to remove stuff like that.
Don't we already have that +/- system in place? When you click on one user's feedback score, all the necessary information is displayed.
The only problem is that we're all big wusses when it comes to neg someone's ass on this site. Many of you guys remember the arkman1982 thread?
^maybe like adding an extra number to the feedback score like your would say 57+/0- or something like that. I have no problem investigating negatives and resolving them so they do not affect someone in the wrong.
Yeah that might work just fine. I just don't see why changing feedback score display would be a good idea and creating more HoS icons wouldn't.
Not that I think we should have more icons, I'm all fine with current system. It's just that clicking on somebody's feedback score is less work than browsing through the Hall of Shame thread to gather information.
OSG: If anyone tries to manipulate me by falsifying information so that a member gets placed in the hall, the admin team is capable of going through PM's from both members. The odds of that happening is extremely unlikely.
I'm not worried about that Markus. Obviously something akin to due process happens when issues are brought up to you or mods or admins or whatever. I meant if people are trying to work out issues in private, and member A says to member B he'll be 'sent to the HoS' as a thread to get a refund or something of that nature.
Obviously the man upstairs (Dain H. Anderson) can look at PMs, but suppose the victimised party doesn't say anything. Let's call this hypothetical member El Chump Grande. Nobody will look into something that nobody knows happened!
It's not something that I think is going to happen so holy shit time to freak out. It's not time to break out the ant-HoS pitchforks, I'm not going all angry mob up on this bitch. It's something that if it ever happens, that's a point where we should get our underwear in a bunch. That's all.
(NO DISCUSSION ALLOWED still seems to me like a silly thing to say on a discussion board but whatever)
i think for the feedback, it would be really nice if NEITHER of the scores were posted until both were submitted. That way, there is no chance of retaliatory feedback. Both either get posted at the same time, or don't get posted at all. that would help with making it more honest.
i do think a level system(or something similar) would be great. there is no distinction now between banned, scammer, or slow shipper (except in the HOS thread). I think it would be nice to have that information directly on the members info when they post in threads. But this isn't a major issue.
as dan mentioned earlier, having exact consequences for actions would be awesome. then people know what they have to do in order to remove an icon or the consequences for any particular action (ending an auction early or not following through with it because of a low price).
really liking this thread here guys. keep with the positive mojo
would also like to thank Mark for keeping the HOS thread updated. it is very useful and you do seem to get a ton of crap for doing what needs to be done.
I think this is a good thread. We can discuss stuff here about the HOS and leave the bullshit out of that thread. Maybe we can just change the title here to HOS Civil Discussion or something. Thanks Mark for maintaining this monster of a project, we really appreciate it.
I second that, it is better to have a seperate open ended discussion about the HOS outside of the actual thread. I think the HOS thread is invaluable to potential buyers and sellers on this site, but it becomes hard to look up the proper information if the thread is dominated with a bunch of stupid bitching and arguing that gets nowhere real fast.
I do believe that the system in place as far as feedback goes should remain the same, I think adding more and more features would just overcomplicate the process unnecessarily. Keep everything simple and streamlined for ease of use.
i think for the feedback, it would be really nice if NEITHER of the scores were posted until both were submitted. That way, there is no chance of retaliatory feedback. Both either get posted at the same time, or don't get posted at all. that would help with making it more honest.
We've been kicking around a LOT of options on how to "fix" the feedback system, and this was one of the things we're seriously considering. Problem with this option is, if someone is feeling scammy and they know they're going to get a neg, they simply never leave feedback and never get the -1.
---
Another option would be that if a user leaves a neg, the receiving party CANNOT immediately leave any feedback. Instead, potentially a remediation tool could be opened as part of the transaction, similar to Paypal's buyer dispute system. Possible outcomes would include:
1. Both parties cancel transaction, neg is rescinded and no feedback appears for either party (return/refund). Alternatively, this could force an auto-neutral.
2. Party issuing the neg chooses to modify the feedback; if they change to positive they get an auto-positive from the receiving party. If they change to neutral, the receiving party has the choice to leave neutral or positive.
3. Party issuing the neg does not wish to cancel or change feedback (or takes no action): After some statutory period, the "dispute" is closed and the receiving party can leave whatever feedback they wish.
Wow. I just got back now and I am having a thread overload. Good ideas guys. Keep 'em coming. To quillavoie who was saying that there already is a feedback system, I meant one that was directly visible at all times by people's posts so that there is a (as much as it can be) real-time feedback meter. Possibly, if there is a dispute with the feedback, the counter in the profile can contain a small button which initiates a dispute that alerts an admin to BS feedback, similar to what someone posted earlier. Or, we can just keep it simple and use the nice PM system.
I agree with you Jonas. +/- system would be great. Also, if something is really screwed up in a transaction and you are afraid of getting retalitory feedback if you post a negative/neutral, don't worry, we can always investigate and do have the power to remove stuff like that.
Don't we already have that +/- system in place? When you click on one user's feedback score, all the necessary information is displayed.
My suggestion was to have something like a green + number and a red - number by each persons user name. That way you can see their + and - feedback on every single post they make and you don't have to do all the legwork.
When someone has over 100 feedback, they probably have 130-150 total, but only 100 are distinct. So then if you want to find the negatives, you potentially have to browse 15 pages (I think we're limited to 10 per page?) of feedback looking for negatives.
Surely a simple red - number by their name would simply matters.
Ebay realized their system was broke and has now made their negatives clickable links so you don't have to browse thousands of feedbacks. At the bare minimum, it'd be nice to incorporate that here too.
My suggestion was to have something like a green + number and a red - number by each persons user name. That way you can see their + and - feedback on every single post they make and you don't have to do all the legwork.
When someone has over 100 feedback, they probably have 130-150 total, but only 100 are distinct. So then if you want to find the negatives, you potentially have to browse 15 pages (I think we're limited to 10 per page?) of feedback looking for negatives.
Surely a simple red - number by their name would simply matters.
Ebay realized their system was broke and has now made their negatives clickable links so you don't have to browse thousands of feedbacks. At the bare minimum, it'd be nice to incorporate that here too.
I thought that was my idea. Jk. And I most definitely agree. I think the linking + and - thing would be great, though I wonder how difficult that would be to incorporate...
The +/- idea is much better than the big red exclamation mark IMO.
The problem is, not every entry in the HoS involves a transaction. The +/- system is a good feedback system, but the red exclamation mark is still necessary. They are two completely different things.
This is proof that when we all get together to discuss a topic, and we act civil, we might actually find a solution. It is nice to have input from people on all sides of the "DOT"...
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I would be in favor of a 2 icon/color system. Yellow = probation, gone after a month. Red = permanent. However if buyers aren't checking what the icon means or why the person is in the HoS then all changes will not matter.
What may be the best change would need some coding by Dain. Make the icons clickable. The person's HoS icon would link directly to the HoS post or other thread for background.
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I understand that, but it would be very nice to see why exactly someone got HoSed (Heh), because there are more minor offenses that still get the same punishment. For example, I would be more inclined to do business with someone who's a slow shipper rather than someone who tried to pass off a reseal or something. Just sort of thinking out loud, because I still don't know what ars2pd and a few other people did.
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I understand that, but it would be very nice to see why exactly someone got HoSed (Heh), because there are more minor offenses that still get the same punishment. For example, I would be more inclined to do business with someone who's a slow shipper rather than someone who tried to pass off a reseal or something. Just sort of thinking out loud, because I still don't know what ars2pd and a few other people did.
All of the information you are looking for is literally in the first post of the thread. For example, because you mention Alex, this information was taken directly from my first post:
"Ars2pd ----------------------------------------- NA Username. Left many members high and dry after taking payment for several hundred dollars from several members. Also has other trades pending. Most info can be found here: http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=33093 "
You just need to read through the first post to see what they did
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I understand that, but it would be very nice to see why exactly someone got HoSed (Heh), because there are more minor offenses that still get the same punishment. For example, I would be more inclined to do business with someone who's a slow shipper rather than someone who tried to pass off a reseal or something. Just sort of thinking out loud, because I still don't know what ars2pd and a few other people did.
All of the information you are looking for is literally in the first post of the thread. For example, because you mention Alex, this information was taken directly from my first post:
"Ars2pd ----------------------------------------- NA Username. Left many members high and dry after taking payment for several hundred dollars from several members. Also has other trades pending. Most info can be found here: http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=... "
You just need to read through the first post to see what they did
Well, that was embarrassing. I (somehow) missed that detail. Thanks for pointing it out.
I feel for you Mark. I've only been a member for less than a year and this seems like the 1000th time you've had to explain the purpose of the HOS and how it works.
bsblthrwr: Haha, thanks man. To be honest, it doesn't really bother me. As I'll never have a chance to be a mod here, this one thread is my biggest contribution to the site. I actually enjoy keeping it up and doing a little extra to keep you guys informed as best I can
Excellent thread guys, keep those suggestions coming!
There was some interesting discussion in Kimbo's goodbye thread, thought some ideas could be shared here again. Again, please keep it civil, but I'm open to any suggestions that will help me keep up the Hall of Shame as best I can.
Comments
I personally think any post in the thread that does not pertain to a specific event in the HoS should be deleted and the thread should remain clean and tidy
Real life is not clean and tidy. Issues are rarely black or white. Off-topic discussion is good, even if some deem it pointless. The way the thread runs now is fine - it allows others who have gotten bent over to realize they're not alone and to potentially work out problems that otherwise may not resolve.
I would change the HoS icon into:
HoS: This is the icon as it is now. You only get it if you directly cause the loss of money to another member. It stays forever. Get a Dumbass icon or another HoS infraction while already having a HoS icon and you are banned.
I'm A Dumbass: Slow shipment, bid retractions, late payments, bad service, etc. These stay for 2 weeks and then go away. Three of these and you get slapped with a HoS icon. Stack more than 3 at once, you get a HoS icon right away.
I
agree with you Jonas. +/- system would be great. Also, if something is
really screwed up in a transaction and you are afraid of getting
retalitory feedback if you post a negative/neutral, don't worry, we can
always investigate and do have the power to remove stuff like that.
Don't we already have that +/- system in place? When you click on one user's feedback score, all the necessary information is displayed.
The only problem is that we're all big wusses when it comes to neg someone's ass on this site. Many of you guys remember the arkman1982 thread?
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=22931&keyword1=arkman1982
Not that I think we should have more icons, I'm all fine with current system. It's just that clicking on somebody's feedback score is less work than browsing through the Hall of Shame thread to gather information.
OSG: If anyone tries to manipulate me by falsifying information so that a member gets placed in the hall, the admin team is capable of going through PM's from both members. The odds of that happening is extremely unlikely.
I'm not worried about that Markus. Obviously something akin to due process happens when issues are brought up to you or mods or admins or whatever. I meant if people are trying to work out issues in private, and member A says to member B he'll be 'sent to the HoS' as a thread to get a refund or something of that nature.
Obviously the man upstairs (Dain H. Anderson) can look at PMs, but suppose the victimised party doesn't say anything. Let's call this hypothetical member El Chump Grande. Nobody will look into something that nobody knows happened!
It's not something that I think is going to happen so holy shit time to freak out. It's not time to break out the ant-HoS pitchforks, I'm not going all angry mob up on this bitch. It's something that if it ever happens, that's a point where we should get our underwear in a bunch. That's all.
(NO DISCUSSION ALLOWED still seems to me like a silly thing to say on a discussion board but whatever)
i do think a level system(or something similar) would be great. there is no distinction now between banned, scammer, or slow shipper (except in the HOS thread). I think it would be nice to have that information directly on the members info when they post in threads. But this isn't a major issue.
as dan mentioned earlier, having exact consequences for actions would be awesome. then people know what they have to do in order to remove an icon or the consequences for any particular action (ending an auction early or not following through with it because of a low price).
really liking this thread here guys. keep with the positive mojo
would also like to thank Mark for keeping the HOS thread updated. it is very useful and you do seem to get a ton of crap for doing what needs to be done.
I think this is a good thread. We can discuss stuff here about the HOS and leave the bullshit out of that thread. Maybe we can just change the title here to HOS Civil Discussion or something. Thanks Mark for maintaining this monster of a project, we really appreciate it.
I second that, it is better to have a seperate open ended discussion about the HOS outside of the actual thread. I think the HOS thread is invaluable to potential buyers and sellers on this site, but it becomes hard to look up the proper information if the thread is dominated with a bunch of stupid bitching and arguing that gets nowhere real fast.
I do believe that the system in place as far as feedback goes should remain the same, I think adding more and more features would just overcomplicate the process unnecessarily. Keep everything simple and streamlined for ease of use.
i think for the feedback, it would be really nice if NEITHER of the scores were posted until both were submitted. That way, there is no chance of retaliatory feedback. Both either get posted at the same time, or don't get posted at all. that would help with making it more honest.
We've been kicking around a LOT of options on how to "fix" the feedback system, and this was one of the things we're seriously considering. Problem with this option is, if someone is feeling scammy and they know they're going to get a neg,
they simply never leave feedback and never get the -1.
---
Another option would be that if a user leaves a neg, the receiving party CANNOT immediately leave any feedback. Instead, potentially a remediation tool could be opened as part of the transaction, similar to Paypal's buyer dispute system. Possible outcomes would include:
1. Both parties cancel transaction, neg is rescinded and no feedback appears for either party (return/refund). Alternatively, this could force an auto-neutral.
2. Party issuing the neg chooses to modify the feedback; if they change to positive they get an auto-positive from the receiving party. If they change to neutral, the receiving party has the choice to leave neutral or positive.
3. Party issuing the neg does not wish to cancel or change feedback (or takes no action): After some statutory period, the "dispute" is closed and the receiving party can leave whatever feedback they wish.
I
agree with you Jonas. +/- system would be great. Also, if something is
really screwed up in a transaction and you are afraid of getting
retalitory feedback if you post a negative/neutral, don't worry, we can
always investigate and do have the power to remove stuff like that.
Don't we already have that +/- system in place? When you click on one user's feedback score, all the necessary information is displayed.
My suggestion was to have something like a green + number and a red - number by each persons user name. That way you can see their + and - feedback on every single post they make and you don't have to do all the legwork.
When someone has over 100 feedback, they probably have 130-150 total, but only 100 are distinct. So then if you want to find the negatives, you potentially have to browse 15 pages (I think we're limited to 10 per page?) of feedback looking for negatives.
Surely a simple red - number by their name would simply matters.
Ebay realized their system was broke and has now made their negatives clickable links so you don't have to browse thousands of feedbacks. At the bare minimum, it'd be nice to incorporate that here too.
My suggestion was to have something like a green + number and a red - number by each persons user name. That way you can see their + and - feedback on every single post they make and you don't have to do all the legwork.
When someone has over 100 feedback, they probably have 130-150 total, but only 100 are distinct. So then if you want to find the negatives, you potentially have to browse 15 pages (I think we're limited to 10 per page?) of feedback looking for negatives.
Surely a simple red - number by their name would simply matters.
Ebay realized their system was broke and has now made their negatives clickable links so you don't have to browse thousands of feedbacks. At the bare minimum, it'd be nice to incorporate that here too.
I thought that was my idea.
The +/- idea is much better than the big red exclamation mark IMO.
The problem is, not every entry in the HoS involves a transaction. The +/- system is a good feedback system, but the red exclamation mark is still necessary. They are two completely different things.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
What may be the best change would need some coding by Dain. Make the icons clickable. The person's HoS icon would link directly to the HoS post or other thread for background.
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I understand that, but it would be very nice to see why exactly someone got HoSed (Heh), because there are more minor offenses that still get the same punishment. For example, I would be more inclined to do business with someone who's a slow shipper rather than someone who tried to pass off a reseal or something. Just sort of thinking out loud, because I still don't know what ars2pd and a few other people did.
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I understand that, but it would be very nice to see why exactly someone got HoSed (Heh), because there are more minor offenses that still get the same punishment. For example, I would be more inclined to do business with someone who's a slow shipper rather than someone who tried to pass off a reseal or something. Just sort of thinking out loud, because I still don't know what ars2pd and a few other people did.
All of the information you are looking for is literally in the first post of the thread. For example, because you mention Alex, this information was taken directly from my first post:
"Ars2pd ----------------------------------------- NA Username.
Left many members high and dry after taking payment for several hundred
dollars from several members. Also has other trades pending. Most
info can be found here:
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=33093 "
You just need to read through the first post to see what they did
There simply needs to be a page listing why the person in question got HoS.
Slow shipping and scamming are two different worlds.
As mentioned in the very first post of the Hall of Shame, I completely agree with you. Funny thing is, some members don't want to send their cash to someone who consistently takes MONTHS to ship packages. Their poor selling practice gets listed in the Hall of Shame, and people can make and EDUCATED decision as to whether or not they want to deal with those individuals.
The Hall is not meant to be for sight scammers as they are banned almost immediately. It's simply a list of poor business practices (both buying and selling, but not necessarily scamming) so that members know exactly who they're dealing with.
I understand that, but it would be very nice to see why exactly someone got HoSed (Heh), because there are more minor offenses that still get the same punishment. For example, I would be more inclined to do business with someone who's a slow shipper rather than someone who tried to pass off a reseal or something. Just sort of thinking out loud, because I still don't know what ars2pd and a few other people did.
All of the information you are looking for is literally in the first post of the thread. For example, because you mention Alex, this information was taken directly from my first post:
"Ars2pd ----------------------------------------- NA Username.
Left many members high and dry after taking payment for several hundred
dollars from several members. Also has other trades pending. Most
info can be found here:
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=... "
You just need to read through the first post to see what they did
Well, that was embarrassing. I (somehow) missed that detail. Thanks for pointing it out.
bsblthrwr: Haha, thanks man. To be honest, it doesn't really bother me. As I'll never have a chance to be a mod here, this one thread is my biggest contribution to the site. I actually enjoy keeping it up and doing a little extra to keep you guys informed as best I can
Excellent thread guys, keep those suggestions coming!
There was some interesting discussion in Kimbo's goodbye thread, thought some ideas could be shared here again. Again, please keep it civil, but I'm open to any suggestions that will help me keep up the Hall of Shame as best I can.
Thanks guys!